-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Heat related issues (25 July 2019 and subsequent days)
- Thread starter londonmidland
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I commute daily by train in Switzerland. In total we've had solid 2+ weeks of weather similar to what happened yesterday here and I, nor anyone else I know had been delayed or experienced anything similar to what happened in a single day yesterday over here. There might have been single incidents like the one you mentioned, there obviously always will be incidents. Heavy winters don't seem to faze them either. The biggest issue with Swiss National Railways during the heatwave is the AC situation with people complaining about AC not cooling enough. But that's it.
Switzerland isn't exactly a tropical country. What they've been doing since forever though is they've been building expensive and solid infrastructure, rather than build expensive infrastructure using cheapest means possible and then complain that this or that isn't possible and if you make everything private things will be better (when in fact they get even worse because there are many more pockets to fill ad more corners to cut).
Nothing unusual in that, surely.
It was still mechanical the last time i was there, so quite probablyNorthern have just tweeted about issues at Knaresborough, unsure if heat related or not, will post here for confirmation on that bit:
-Peter
Last edited:
underbank
Established Member
Looking at the costs of railway improvements/new lines, etc., I don't think anyone could say we're doing it "on the cheap". The money is going somewhere. If it's not on the equipment itself, there must be waste along the line, or fraud, or incompetence. Don't we keep seeing figures showing how expensive our improvements cost compared with other countries. What's going wrong??
ashkeba
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 May 2019
- Messages
- 2,171
Congratulations on your good fortune avoiding the melting roads, collisions and other causes of gross disruption on the roads, including the one I got mixed up in on the way back from the station (not there to travel today, fortunately).
So it was "not that extreme" despite Cambridge setting its new record high temperature?
underbank
Established Member
People needing medical attention due to passing out, panic attacks etc aren't "poor delicate flowers"!
So we've been buying cheap poor quality units or not maintaining them properly. If there are no opening windows, then the Air Con needs to work - it should be treated just as importantly as other safety-critical parts of the train.
[/QUOTE]
Firstly, it was you who tried to build a case (and used the word routinely) mocking those who think that being stuck in a chamber exposed to extreme heat where there is no air exchange and you get CO2 buildup from people breathing and no ventilation is something bad. If you think that it is in anyway similar to being on a train in a hot country but where you can open windows I must suggest that you wait for the next hot day, wrap yourself in a cling film put a large plastic bag over your head (make sure it's sealed properly) and let us know how long you managed to last. My first hand experience from yesterday is such that after 2 hours on a sealed stationary train where we weren't even allowed to open the doors because presumably "health and safety" that had we stood there for another 1hr there would have been riots.
As someone pointed out above, other railways realise that this is a pretty dangerous situation and they retrofitted windows that can be opened in an event of emergency. Obviously that costs money so it ain't gonna happen in the UK.
all the OHLE problems yesterday were in traditional pulley/deadweight tensioning areas with equipment installed decades ago (30 years being the newest) hence recent spend isn't a good guide.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with this 100%. If the original poster needed medical attention because they were a "poor delicate flower" (that's not on, calling people that), they wouldn't call themselves that, would they? If someone passes out on a train or has a panic attack due to the extreme heat and claustrophobic atmosphere, it's not their fault and calling them a "poor delicate flower" who wouldn't have survived the Somme or Normandy is not alright.
Am I right in thinking that the only opening windows on any LNER stock are on the Mk3 carriages in the HST sets? And even then, they're only in the doors and trying to get any good airflow through them in the hottest day of the year is nigh impossible.
-Peter
So anecdotal experience , well in my anecdotal experience travelling by train in the UK this week , I have not experienced a single issue either .Take yesterday I went to Liverpool from Manchester in the morning then travelled back about 3 hours later I then travelled across the Pennines to Huddersfield after that apart from some minor delay and slightly increased temperatures my travel yesterday was very smooth . Clearly judging by this thread that was not the case for everyone but then that shows the value of looking at the bigger picture rather than the anecdotal arguments of "me and people I spoke to happened to be fine ".
Are you really saying that the TGV incident occurred when the temperature was lower but yesterday and over the past 2 weeks there have been no other "incidents" because that is all that happened yesterday on the UK rail network a collection of "incidents" . But I am sure plenty of passengers also managed to get around by train yesterday in the UK without issue as you did in Switzerland ?
On the topic of unit air con , I am reliably informed by a northern driver that signs them that the cab air con on the 195/331 which can be manually changed by train crew can only be set to a defined temperature below the outside air temperature , not sure if the same applies to the saloon air con but that would seem sensible .
Passengers on GC’s Twitter feed are being directed towards https://www.grandcentralrail.com/help/refunds-and-compensation . I’m not sure what is there is compliant with 30.1 of the NRCoT. Under the section ‘if you decide not to travel’ GC’s webpage states:
‘Advance tickets cannot usually be refunded. They may be amended, however an administration fee of £10 will be charged.
If you have purchased an Off-peak or Anytime e-ticket from grandcentralrail.com and not activated it, you can obtain your refund automatically by logging into My Account and selecting the ticket you wish to refund. There will be a £10 charge for this service.’
This makes no mention of para 30.1’s provision for no administration charge being payable if your ticket cancellation is due to the journey being delayed or cancelled. It also wrongly suggests that Advance ticket are not refundable in these circumstances.
‘Advance tickets cannot usually be refunded. They may be amended, however an administration fee of £10 will be charged.
If you have purchased an Off-peak or Anytime e-ticket from grandcentralrail.com and not activated it, you can obtain your refund automatically by logging into My Account and selecting the ticket you wish to refund. There will be a £10 charge for this service.’
This makes no mention of para 30.1’s provision for no administration charge being payable if your ticket cancellation is due to the journey being delayed or cancelled. It also wrongly suggests that Advance ticket are not refundable in these circumstances.
But even when the train is stopped they work better than windows that won’t open at all.
reddragon
Established Member
No idea, could be aircon, could be maintenance crews collapsed in a pool of sweat on the floor or a need to carry out addition inspections due to the heat
OK Thanks. The people that are doing the work today and yesterday, as much as we may moan, are doing a bloody good job, keeping the system at least existing.
-Peter
I don't think I did use the word "routinely" but I'm happy to stand corrected if I did, and I certainly wasn't mocking anyone who was stuck on a hot train. I'm sorry you had a bad experience yesterday, I know its not nice. I was merely suggesting that people try to view this with a bit of perspective, and in the great scheme of things... its not the end of the world.
As for me sharing people's ordeals of very hot trains, as a railway worker I speak from first hand experience of spending entire shifts (and going well over my day) in extremely hot and unpleasant conditions... I've been stuck on sealed units with no air con for hours, I've evacuated passengers off stalled, packed, baking trains. I don't need to do it again voluntarily because I know exactly what it's like and I'll no doubt have to do it again in the future. Its not nice but you just get on with it.
Like I said above, I was just suggesting people use a bit of perspective. In this world of twitter, goldfish attention spans and all the news all the time, people have a tendency to sensationalise things.
The anecdotal experience is worthless when it tries to convince you that what the national news outlets refer to as general meltdown is not a meltdown because you managed to travel without major drama. What I wrote above about SBB being unfazed by the heatwave is not me trying to spin something, it is easily verifiable in google (albeit in German/French/Italian).
Which is a fair point. If Euston, for example, was open and functioning normally, then most likely some sort of acceptance would have been agreed. But in the circumstances, you can't seriously expect VTWC to agree to allow hundreds and thousands of LNER passengers travel on their services when they already had thousands of their own customers stranded. As i stated, TOC's are generally very good at assisting fellow operators in event of disruption by accepting tickets not normally valid to ensure passengers keep moving. But yesterday that was impossible with so much major disruption on all routes north. Each TOC has to prioritise their own passengers first. I recall an instance not too long ago when the ECML suffered a blockage (broken train or dewirement or something) but as it occurred on a Sunday and EMT were already running a reduced service due to engineering works, they couldn't agree ticket acceptance as they were already struggling to fit their own passengers on the trains that were running. 99.9% of the time, TOC's do what they can to keep people on the move. Yesterday was one of those 0.1% of days where events conspired against them and they couldn't.
underbank
Established Member
Not only was Euston's concourse already full, the staff weren't letting any more passengers into the station, so there were huge queues/crowds outside too. A bit unreasonable to expect VTWC to honour other TOC's tickets when they couldn't even get their own into the station concourse.
kristiang85
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Jan 2018
- Messages
- 2,655
Last night I was planning to get the 2250 to Basingstoke (the Salisbury train); it had no aircon and was absolutely packed - the heat was unbearable, so I got off right away and waited for the next train at 2305, which I knew would be a more modern, longer and comfortable train. Luckily as I didn't need to go to Salisbury I had that choice.
It did mean in the end though that I didn't get home until well after midnight, as the 2305 was delayed by just over 10 minutes. Is it worth trying to get some form of delay repay out of this (sadly SWR's online forms don't allow for this kind of entry anymore, so it will probably reject it outright online). It's only £3 so not really about the money, but I do want to make some kind of point to them that the conditions on many of their trains yesterday was abysmal. Or do you think it will waste my time?
It did mean in the end though that I didn't get home until well after midnight, as the 2305 was delayed by just over 10 minutes. Is it worth trying to get some form of delay repay out of this (sadly SWR's online forms don't allow for this kind of entry anymore, so it will probably reject it outright online). It's only £3 so not really about the money, but I do want to make some kind of point to them that the conditions on many of their trains yesterday was abysmal. Or do you think it will waste my time?
That's reassuring. The weight tensioned system is mechanically sound but I suppose the length of the track over which it can fail was built for climate conditions in the '60s/'70s. Although extending the track might be possible on some masts with a tall clear space, I suspect that a decision might be to initiate a programme of wholesale modification to Tensorex units which I assume can be supplied with varying lengths of extension. It's good to see that the existing MML south knitting will be upgraded so, as well as removing some of the troublesome headspans.
Last edited:
dk1
Veteran Member
Hoping to do Brundall Gardens - Cambrdge - Thameslink -Bedford - Bletchley - Milton Keynes - Stafford today. First bit was 4L & now on the very busy 0957 East Mids 158 & the air-con is working perfectly. So far so good but I know the 1405 off St.Pancras is going to be hectic as the 1402 Sheffield is caped.
But there weren't any. None of the roads melted, they had all been adequately designed with tolerances, not minimally specified.
reddragon
Established Member
There were also loads of road incidents yesterday due to the heat.
Breakdowns, melted roads, road rage from hot drivers, accidents due to the heat fatigued drivers. That didn't make the news.
I spent the day in an aircon office at 23C, used my app to turn of the car aircon before going out, visited my mum & sat her in the aircon'd car for over an hour to cool her down, then sat at home with the hose spraying water on me.
My short periods exposed to 37-38C very unpleasant.
A few minutes in a train, without windows or aircon which would top 50C is enough to be fatal whatever the cause / facts / issues. We are not talking fit, battle worn soldiers, we are talking kids, unhealthy & elderly people and those with health conditions. Someone could have easily died.
This is nobodies 'fault', the is no one to blame, its the consequences of the world we live in. We are ALL to blame for that.
Breakdowns, melted roads, road rage from hot drivers, accidents due to the heat fatigued drivers. That didn't make the news.
I spent the day in an aircon office at 23C, used my app to turn of the car aircon before going out, visited my mum & sat her in the aircon'd car for over an hour to cool her down, then sat at home with the hose spraying water on me.
My short periods exposed to 37-38C very unpleasant.
A few minutes in a train, without windows or aircon which would top 50C is enough to be fatal whatever the cause / facts / issues. We are not talking fit, battle worn soldiers, we are talking kids, unhealthy & elderly people and those with health conditions. Someone could have easily died.
This is nobodies 'fault', the is no one to blame, its the consequences of the world we live in. We are ALL to blame for that.
reddragon
Established Member
Err what? They did and a lot failed.
Have a look at the 'locked' thread regarding windows!
Brilliant idea except someone will get injured and it will be the TOC's fault.
- Status