• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

SELF-DRIVING CARS

Status
Not open for further replies.

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
On average 5 people are killed every day on our roads. If that happened on the railway we'd do something about it.

If railways weren't fenced off, there'd be a hell of a lot more than 5 killed per day. It's only because of the segregation that there are so few accidents. If roads were segregated from pedestrians, your five a day figure would be a lot lower.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
I love the idea of all these driverless vehicles moving around at even slower speeds, and no parked vehicles (so they must always keep moving, using energy, and never park for people to get in or out) and a belief that people want this. Longer to get anywhere. Longer to wait for a car to turn up.

Segregation in a town is what you might expect in a new town, but retrofitting such designs in existing towns and villages? How many properties do we buy and knock down before people kick up a stink? HS2 had enough issues.

There are idiotic drivers and they hurt and kill people. Yet we'll still need drivers for many years to come to take over, so will still need to keep their eyes on the road to be ready to step in. I'd say there's a greater chance of drivers just switching off, sleeping, watching their phone and being even less prepared.

Motorways are probably the ideal candidate for true driverless travel, and we could build more of them, but let's forget the idea of getting rid of drivers entirely.

The taxi idea is flawed too. Who keeps check on the condition of the vehicle? Your car turns up in a state so you request a new one. How much time do you have? People want everything quicker these days (hence the gig economy for home deliveries etc) but we seem to be talking of some nice relaxed future where time doesn't matter.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
And increasing the infrastructure pressures in the densely over-populated cities!

You don't have to go to a big city! Most people live in small to medium-sized towns and cities. Out of all the major cities in the UK, London is really the only one that is crowded. Others have lost huge population and have only just started to have a renaissance. Even Greater Manchester, commonly quoted as a boom city, still had lower population in 2011 than in 1931. The City of Manchester district peaked at just over 700,000 in 1931 and fell to 400,000 by 2001.
 
Last edited:

Kingspanner

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2019
Messages
325
Location
Dinsdale
If railways weren't fenced off, there'd be a hell of a lot more than 5 killed per day. It's only because of the segregation that there are so few accidents. If roads were segregated from pedestrians, your five a day figure would be a lot lower.
A point well made. Looking round this forum or the RAIB website makes it clear that the risk is all in the interface between the trains and the people. Track workers are at risk, level crossing users are at risk, and passengers boarding and alighting are at risk, Almost no-one else is.
 

underbank

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2013
Messages
1,486
Location
North West England
You don't have to go to a big city! Most people live in small to medium-sized towns and cities. Out of all the major cities in the UK, London is really the only one that is crowded. Others have lost huge population and have only just started to have a renaissance. Even Greater Manchester, commonly quoted as a boom city, still had lower population in 2011 than in 1931. The City of Manchester district peaked at just over 700,000 in 1931 and fell to 400,000 by 2001.

"Rural" areas aren't just the random farmhouse on the side of a mountain. "Rural" is generally used to include small towns and large villages too.

In fact, the latest census found 9.3 million (17.6% of the population) live in "rural" areas.

You can't just glibly say that they should all move to cities.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
"Rural" areas aren't just the random farmhouse on the side of a mountain. "Rural" is generally used to include small towns and large villages too.

In fact, the latest census found 9.3 million (17.6% of the population) live in "rural" areas.

You can't just glibly say that they should all move to cities.

The key point is that is it unsustainable to move somewhere remote, deliberately depriving yourself of transport, so you get a "free pass" to use a car. A lot of people move from urban areas to somewhere with no transport and then drive long distances daily to work in a big town. They are basically living an urban lifestyle but sleeping somewhere inaccessible. There are numerous smallish towns that are reasonably self-contained, where people can live and work, but also have good rail access to bigger towns and cities. They may be even have better public transport than some suburban areas of major cities.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
There's a difference between "remote" and "rural".

I define "remote" as somewhere where you need a car because it is too far to walk to usable public transport. As I just said, there are small towns that might be considered "rural" but have good enough rail access so they are not "remote". It isn't very difficult to find an affordable house outside the south within walking distance of a rail station with good service. My mother's house is 10 minutes walk away from a tram and rail station and is probably worth about £70K.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Speed limiters for cars are going to be mandatory for new cars from 2022. The limit will be set by GPS and sign recognition. Sign recognition is available in many cars today, so a lot of people are wilfully ignoring or overriding it.

My concern there would be the number of times my sat-nav has falsely registered a 30 running alongside a 70 I am actually on. Though if it just cuts power rather than braking that will work reasonably.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,521
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If railways weren't fenced off, there'd be a hell of a lot more than 5 killed per day. It's only because of the segregation that there are so few accidents. If roads were segregated from pedestrians, your five a day figure would be a lot lower.

Not that much lower. A fair bit of it is from vehicles hitting other vehicles.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,543
Location
Elginshire
The key point is that is it unsustainable to move somewhere remote, deliberately depriving yourself of transport, so you get a "free pass" to use a car. A lot of people move from urban areas to somewhere with no transport and then drive long distances daily to work in a big town. They are basically living an urban lifestyle but sleeping somewhere inaccessible. There are numerous smallish towns that are reasonably self-contained, where people can live and work, but also have good rail access to bigger towns and cities. They may be even have better public transport than some suburban areas of major cities.
Not everyone has moved to a rural area - some of us have always lived here (or almost in my case). I've done a bit of city living, but it didn't suit me. I'm used to the quieter, slower pace of life. I chuckle when some of you get all uppity because someone passes the time of day with a bus driver - that's the way it is in these here parts.

I would agree that in some cases, rural car ownership isn't sustainable. In the village where I live, it is becoming increasingly common for households to have three, perhaps four, cars - one each for the parents and one each for the adult kids. When there are a few of these households in one street it quickly results parking hell. What alternatives do people have, though? Flexible working means that different family members work at different times of day, and on different days. I'm lucky in that my local bus route is still deemed to be commercially viable six days a week, but if I wish to travel in the evenings, or on a Sunday, I've had it. Try explaining to a line manager in a supermarket that you can't work Sundays because there's no public transport, and you either won't get the job in the first place, or simply be told to take a taxi, with little regard for the fact that a round-trip to town by taxi will set you back at least £35 (nearer £50 if it's "on the meter").

To bring my post vaguely back on topic, self-driving cars may solve some of these issues. It would certainly reduce the numbers of young people who are currently forced to sit their driving tests simply to get to work. If we had them thirty years ago, I know that of a few people who would still be alive today had their lives not been cut short in road accidents.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,686
Location
Devon
Not everyone has moved to a rural area - some of us have always lived here (or almost in my case). I've done a bit of city living, but it didn't suit me. I'm used to the quieter, slower pace of life. I chuckle when some of you get all uppity because someone passes the time of day with a bus driver - that's the way it is in these here parts.

I would agree that in some cases, rural car ownership isn't sustainable. In the village where I live, it is becoming increasingly common for households to have three, perhaps four, cars - one each for the parents and one each for the adult kids. When there are a few of these households in one street it quickly results parking hell. What alternatives do people have, though? Flexible working means that different family members work at different times of day, and on different days. I'm lucky in that my local bus route is still deemed to be commercially viable six days a week, but if I wish to travel in the evenings, or on a Sunday, I've had it. Try explaining to a line manager in a supermarket that you can't work Sundays because there's no public transport, and you either won't get the job in the first place, or simply be told to take a taxi, with little regard for the fact that a round-trip to town by taxi will set you back at least £35 (nearer £50 if it's "on the meter").

To bring my post vaguely back on topic, self-driving cars may solve some of these issues. It would certainly reduce the numbers of young people who are currently forced to sit their driving tests simply to get to work. If we had them thirty years ago, I know that of a few people who would still be alive today had their lives not been cut short in road accidents.
I totally agree Gus. Some of the same issues are to be found down here.
Although we’re quite well served by public transport around Exeter, bus services usually follow the main roads out into the countryside and once you get a little bit off the beaten track there’s pretty much nothing.
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,145
Location
Churn (closed)
I have just read all of this thread. Henry Ford was right.

Everyone wants self driving cars, you just don't all realise that yet. If Uber succeeds in cities, these will even more as they will be safer & cheaper. An old fashioned manually driven fossil cars does 10k pa over 10-15 years, where as a self driving EV will do 100k pa, slashing the capital cost (the biggest car cost) per mile. A car today cost 45p/m without the driver (biggest cost) It is estimated than a self driving EV will cost 10p/m to run as a taxi.

In rural areas, those trapped without public transport will flock to this service and rural bus services will vanish overnight.

Cars with autonomy level 2 already have half the accidents and those with level 3 a third of the accidents of pure human driven cars. Driver-less cars are already safer, we are just not ready to accept that yet.

An those of you wanting to cherish and can still afford to own a car, will be able to without cars parked all over the place & idiots on the road. You will drive it to the station and it will drive itself home, that is if you don't rent it out when you are at work.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
My concern there would be the number of times my sat-nav has falsely registered a 30 running alongside a 70 I am actually on. Though if it just cuts power rather than braking that will work reasonably.

You can always override the limiter if you need to, and I believe the new rules will allow this still. Just kick down and the car will let you exceed the limit the car thinks you're in.

My car reads plates and has a limiter (and we're talking 2012 tech) and it often gets confused when you enter something like a shopping centre car park with a 10 or even 5mph limit. When you leave, there's often no 30mph sign so the car thinks it is still a 5 or 10mph limit. Not great if you couldn't override!
 

Lucan

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2018
Messages
1,211
Location
Wales
Everyone wants self driving cars, you just don't all realise that yet.
Sweeping statement of the week! I am often using my rugged 4x4 effectively as a tractor on my property. I have pulled tree stumps out with it. How will a SD car cope with that? Let me guess that you will say I should go and hire a tractor, but it sounds like in your Utopia we are going to be spending all our time on the phone hiring things, waiting around for them to turn up, and then getting ripped off by the hirer - in my experience.
If Uber succeeds in cities, these will even more as they will be safer & cheaper. An old fashioned manually driven fossil cars does 10k pa over 10-15 years, where as a self driving EV will do 100k pa, slashing the capital cost (the biggest car cost) per mile.
Steady on. You are conflating three separate issues : Electric Vehicles, Self-driving Vehicles, and Uber.
In rural areas, those trapped without public transport will flock to this service and rural bus services will vanish overnight.
I am in a rural area and no-one I know is or would be "trapped without public transport". Everyone has some means of getting where they need to, or they would not live here. And if the rural bus service around here "vanished overnight" you would hardly notice a difference. There are only about three buses a day to and from our nearest market town (paid for by the local government) and hardly anyone uses them.
An those of you wanting to cherish and can still afford to own a car.... You will drive it to the station and it will drive itself home, that is if you don't rent it out when you are at work.
... and find it comes back with vomit over the seats and condoms on the floor. No thanks. Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons It is about how some people acting as a holes foul things up when facilities are shared in the absence of close supervision.
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,145
Location
Churn (closed)
Sweeping statement of the week! I am often using my rugged 4x4 effectively as a tractor on my property. I have pulled tree stumps out with it. How will a SD car cope with that? Let me guess that you will say I should go and hire a tractor, but it sounds like in your Utopia we are going to be spending all our time on the phone hiring things, waiting around for them to turn up, and then getting ripped off by the hirer - in my experience.
Don't farmers already hire in plant as do construction? Own some, hire some so no change there!


Steady on. You are conflating three separate issues : Electric Vehicles, Self-driving Vehicles, and Uber.
They are closely linked. IT driven car hire / taxis such as Uber, Google, Tesla are funding the change supported by manufacturers

... and find it comes back with vomit over the seats and condoms on the floor. No thanks. Ever heard of the Tragedy of the Commons? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons It is about how some people acting as a holes foul things up when facilities are shared in the absence of close supervision.

You don't have to hire it out, but will still save on parking charges
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,493
It’s been quite widely reported. The main idea in this legislation is mandatory speed limiters, but this is just one part of quite a large package. Also included is mandatory auto braking and lane keeping assist (which is literally the most irritating thing I’ve ever used).

It genuinely makes me feel quite depressed. Not least because I suspect it’ll actually cost an almighty amount of jobs if the performance car market collapses.
Speed limiters will only be any use if they know the speed limit. What's auto braking? Is that to prevent tailgating? If so, start with lorries.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,493
Why do we allow cars to travel at 30mph or more in places where conflict with pedestrians is likely and where such conflict will be disastrous? Because lower speed limits won't be adhered to and are unenforcable with current resources.
In Cardiff loads of 20 mph areas have been introduced in the last two years. Total waste of time and money. Very few people stick to them. The people that drove along at 40 when the limit was 30 still drive at 40 now. The chances of them being caught haven't changed so what's the point?
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,426
Most people live outside London and local public transport outside London is in most cases worse than ever (although trains are being used a lot more these days). So people must be finding alternatives to both driving and local public transport.

How much of the decline in car ownership can be explained by a) London making up an ever growing % of the population b) the ageing population (no need for multiple cars after retirement, declining fitness to drive) and c) more students?
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,145
Location
Churn (closed)
Speed limiters will only be any use if they know the speed limit. What's auto braking? Is that to prevent tailgating? If so, start with lorries.

My EV already has all of that.

Lane keep - I turned if off as its a pain on narrow country lanes, but it still works when self driving on highways.

Auto braking - This is an outstandingly good feature. It stops you rear ending the car in front (it works) and if anyone steps out in front of you it stops the car. Absolutely brilliant useful aid.

Speed limiter - works by reading signs & GPS mapping database. Picks up temporary speed limit signs OK, misses OH gantries, de-restricted signs and a problem when you leave a drive / car park & enter a main road. If you break the speed indicated it just flashes & beeps at you, won't let you set cruise at 40 in a 30, you have to set 30 then use the plus button.

Adaptive cruise is brilliant, especially in traffic or on a motorway with narrow lanes & average speed cameras. Lets you enjoy driving & deals with the less fun parts.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,493
My EV already has all of that.

Lane keep - I turned if off as its a pain on narrow country lanes, but it still works when self driving on highways.

Auto braking - This is an outstandingly good feature. It stops you rear ending the car in front (it works) and if anyone steps out in front of you it stops the car. Absolutely brilliant useful aid.

Speed limiter - works by reading signs & GPS mapping database. Picks up temporary speed limit signs OK, misses OH gantries, de-restricted signs and a problem when you leave a drive / car park & enter a main road. If you break the speed indicated it just flashes & beeps at you, won't let you set cruise at 40 in a 30, you have to set 30 then use the plus button.

Adaptive cruise is brilliant, especially in traffic or on a motorway with narrow lanes & average speed cameras. Lets you enjoy driving & deals with the less fun parts.
All sounds good. What's not to like?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,628
I'm afraid if we all wanted to live sustainably we would all live in London sized cities.
City dwellers consume much less energy and produce much less pollution due to easily available and good quality public transport and short commute distances etc.

Sustaining that level of public transport service in small towns is far beyond the means of government, given the political costs of taxation.
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,145
Location
Churn (closed)
I'm afraid if we all wanted to live sustainably we would all live in London sized cities.
City dwellers consume much less energy and produce much less pollution due to easily available and good quality public transport and short commute distances etc.

Sustaining that level of public transport service in small towns is far beyond the means of government, given the political costs of taxation.
e-bikes do resolve this, we just need the facilities to support them.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,628
e-bikes do resolve this, we just need the facilities to support them.
e-bikes resolve this, potentially, in the summer.

Riding a bike in winter weather is not particularly appealing, as the ONS transport mileage figures across the year demonstrate.
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,493
e-bikes resolve this, potentially, in the summer.

Riding a bike in winter weather is not particularly appealing, as the ONS transport mileage figures across the year demonstrate.
I ride all year round. The only thing I don't like is rain. If it's lashing down I'll take the car but we're talking maybe twice a month. I don't care how cold it gets. I even cycled to work March 1st last year after the heavy snow. There were no buses, I couldn't have driven because the road was blocked by a huge snowdrift. Once on the main there were a few cars including some that got stuck. Most people were walking.

Actually that's an intereting thought. How would a self driving car cope in snow? Impossible to see road markings and often kerbs as well.
 

reddragon

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2016
Messages
3,145
Location
Churn (closed)
Maybe not in the UK but still in many areas it will be needed. Saying that, the Arctic was 25C today so floating cars soon instead?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top