Caledonian Sleeper

BRX · 25 Jul 2019

Carlisle said:
In today’s world will too many in charge really be that bothered. If Serco (or any similar operation) aren’t loosing much money due to the multiple reimbursements from their various contractors whose equipment has either failed or haven’t been supplied in working order within the agreed timescale

Regardless of the amount of money being lost... once they are at the point where they are not interested in re-winning the franchise then they don't have a great deal of interest in the long term damage being done to the 'brand'.

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Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2019

Struner said:
That's the spirit! So bring your own mug & teabag.

I wish UK trains, like most ex-Communist and still-Communist ones, had samovars - free boiling water in every coach, even on the newest Chinese trains. Make your own tea, coffee and noodles!

On a Moldovan sleeper I went on it was coal fired!

RochdalePioneers · 25 Jul 2019

The brand and the spiel is clear - a luxury experience. Instead what did I get? Old trains not new. Confusion between staff on check in. Lounge car broken. Booked coach broken. Blind in my alternate berth broken. Towel dispenser hanging off the wall in the toilets. Compensation for the old stock and the lack of lounge car plus 100% refund for the late arrival which was a knock-on from yesterday's late arrival. Fellow passengers who had a free trip up and a free trip down.

I felt embarrassed for the confused looking Americans wondering why the lounge was dark and empty. Welcome to Britain!

theironroad · 25 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Couchettes, as found on every European night train. I've long found it odd that we omit them in the UK.

I was thinking more of a totally open plan carriage ,but yeah, couchettes would be good too.

cb a1 · 25 Jul 2019

theironroad said:
I was thinking more of a totally open plan carriage ,but yeah, couchettes would be good too.

Here's an idea (not serious). How about rails to tie your hammock to?
Many years ago I travelled up the Amazon from Manaus to Leticia. The middle deck of the river boats had bars running down the ceiling to which you tied your hammock - [Google Images].

47271 · 25 Jul 2019

What's significant about the last few pages is that it's all about failings on the Highlander, the focus has shifted away from the new stock. So regulars are reporting that Highlander service is truly diabolical at the moment even when it isn't delayed: never enough crew, dodgy aircon right left and centre, everyone crammed into twin cabins, nightly confusion over ticket types and benefits, broken toilets, breakfast served in cardboard boxes and paper cups - all the stuff that we're familiar with.

Very much at third hand I understand however that a (sort of) turning point on the Lowlander came when they managed to bring a fifth half set into service and got a particular troublesome early one out of the way for proper attention. Which is great, but if they've only got five usable half sets available in mid July, how on earth did they think that they'd ever be able to get the Highlander changed over to mk5s in the early summer? They must've known ages ago that there was no hope of meeting that deadline. And they need to bring in another three in a month to meet the next claimed changeover date. As well as dealing with a strike of course. I don't think so.

BRX · 25 Jul 2019

Trying to start the lowlander with fewer than 5 half sets seems like folly in the first place.

Peter Sarf · 25 Jul 2019

47271 said:
What's significant about the last few pages is that it's all about failings on the Highlander, the focus has shifted away from the new stock. So regulars are reporting that Highlander service is truly diabolical at the moment even when it isn't delayed: never enough crew, dodgy aircon right left and centre, everyone crammed into twin cabins, nightly confusion over ticket types and benefits, broken toilets, breakfast served in cardboard boxes and paper cups - all the stuff that we're familiar with.

Very much at third hand I understand however that a (sort of) turning point on the Lowlander came when they managed to bring a fifth half set into service and got a particular troublesome early one out of the way for proper attention. Which is great, but if they've only got five usable half sets available in mid July, how on earth did they think that they'd ever be able to get the Highlander changed over to mk5s in the early summer? They must've known ages ago that there was no hope of meeting that deadline. And they need to bring in another three in a month to meet the next claimed changeover date. As well as dealing with a strike of course. I don't think so.

Sums up a lot of things (on the the railways) these days. Over optimistic perhaps but definitely not willing to face up to potential negatives even if blatantly obvious to all but the management. We had the London Bridge remodelling fiasco when no-one at the helm seemed to believe that the reduced track capacity on the approaches would result in the planned service level being un-achievable. We then had the timetabling fiascos. Thamesliink are now sleepwalking towards a service level that will only be possible in a perfect world. Plenty of clues that the king is wearing no clothes but no one reacting :rolleyes:

.

urpert · 25 Jul 2019

theironroad said:
There should be a hostel style dorm room , basic bunks crammed into a open carriage.. would probably be full all summer if price right.

That’s effectively a couchette, which I think you would struggle to fit into UK loading gauge.

_toommm_ · 25 Jul 2019

The stock for tonight's Highlander arrived 40 late into Euston, but luckily that was in more than enough time to allow what should be a right time departure.

It'll be interesting to see how it, and the Lowlander, fair tonight...

Chrism20 · 25 Jul 2019

47271 said:
What's significant about the last few pages is that it's all about failings on the Highlander, the focus has shifted away from the new stock. So regulars are reporting that Highlander service is truly diabolical at the moment even when it isn't delayed: never enough crew, dodgy aircon right left and centre, everyone crammed into twin cabins, nightly confusion over ticket types and benefits, broken toilets, breakfast served in cardboard boxes and paper cups - all the stuff that we're familiar with.

Very much at third hand I understand however that a (sort of) turning point on the Lowlander came when they managed to bring a fifth half set into service and got a particular troublesome early one out of the way for proper attention. Which is great, but if they've only got five usable half sets available in mid July, how on earth did they think that they'd ever be able to get the Highlander changed over to mk5s in the early summer? They must've known ages ago that there was no hope of meeting that deadline. And they need to bring in another three in a month to meet the next claimed changeover date. As well as dealing with a strike of course. I don't think so.

It does to an extent sound like they are throwing all the resources at trying to get the Lowlander right whilst hoping that the Highlander can "Plod along" in the meantime.

Do they actually only have five half sets operational? I've probably read it wrong but I thought from the press release pushing back the Highlander that there was going to be a half set available at either end of the line which would suggest six which is of course still two short of the minimum needed to run the service.

It is nonetheless heartening to see the performance of the lowlander improving.

TimboM · 25 Jul 2019

Chrism20 said:
It does to an extent sound like they are throwing all the resources at trying to get the Lowlander right whilst hoping that the Highlander can "Plod along" in the meantime.

Do they actually only have five half sets operational? I've probably read it wrong but I thought from the press release pushing back the Highlander that there was going to be a half set available at either end of the line which would suggest six which is of course still two short of the minimum needed to run the service.

It is nonetheless heartening to see the performance of the lowlander improving.

There are six Units (half-sets) that have been accepted and in service - of the original four that were on the Lowlander two have been replaced by "new" Units and those two are under-going remedial work.

There wasn't anything in the Press Release about having one at each end - what it did say (and what is happening) is that as the other Units come available, these will sub out the "original" ones so they can get sorted (at the Glasgow end) until all nine Units (eight + a spare) are in service and in reasonable shape... and then the Highlander will launch.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2019

BRX said:
Trying to start the lowlander with fewer than 5 half sets seems like folly in the first place.

I think they made a very foolish error by taking some Mk3s off lease "early" (i.e. on the original schedule) and so they may have had no choice.

If the Lowlander is getting itself sorted out that's progress at least, and it does seem it's pretty much stopped featuring here.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2019

Chrism20 said:
It does to an extent sound like they are throwing all the resources at trying to get the Lowlander right whilst hoping that the Highlander can "Plod along" in the meantime.

That probably makes some sense, as the Lowlander is the one with more business customers I'd think (correct me if I'm wrong) and so if you annoy the regulars it will have far more of an impact than annoying tourists who may never have used it again anyway. Meanwhile a lot of the FW customers are climbers/walkers who are probably a bit more tolerant of discomfort than most.

TimboM · 25 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think they made a very foolish error by taking some Mk3s off lease "early" (i.e. on the original schedule) and so they may have had no choice.

It would have been "very foolish" to spend tens of thousands on major exams and repairs for stock which only had a few weeks (at best) left - that's why those eight went to the scrapper.

trebor79 · 25 Jul 2019

47271 said:
What's significant about the last few pages is that it's all about failings on the Highlander, the focus has shifted away from the new stock. So regulars are reporting that Highlander service is truly diabolical at the moment even when it isn't delayed: never enough crew, dodgy aircon right left and centre, everyone crammed into twin cabins, nightly confusion over ticket types and benefits, broken toilets, breakfast served in cardboard boxes and paper cups - all the stuff that we're familiar with.

Very much at third hand I understand however that a (sort of) turning point on the Lowlander came when they managed to bring a fifth half set into service and got a particular troublesome early one out of the way for proper attention. Which is great, but if they've only got five usable half sets available in mid July, how on earth did they think that they'd ever be able to get the Highlander changed over to mk5s in the early summer? They must've known ages ago that there was no hope of meeting that deadline. And they need to bring in another three in a month to meet the next claimed changeover date. As well as dealing with a strike of course. I don't think so.

Perhaps the fact that the units are having to go in for remedial work has thrown the timetable out? It wouldn't have been obvious without hindsight that trains would have to go back for modification post acceptance.

BRX · 26 Jul 2019

TimboM said:
It would have been "very foolish" to spend tens of thousands on major exams and repairs for stock which only had a few weeks (at best) left - that's why those eight went to the scrapper.

They only had a few weeks left according to a schedule involving the premature introduction of the new stock, though. Let's say the new stock had not been introduced for another three months - and those three months had been used to test it properly, rectify problems and ensure the availability of at least one 'spare' set before any of it went near the public - I wonder how much would have been saved in compensation payments, and the value of preserving reputation, something harder to put a firm figure on. And the effects on staff that we now see leading to the threat of strike action, which has a cost, potentially a directly financial one.

Presumably there are parts of the highlander fleet that now have the clock ticking on them - is that going to lead to another premature switchover attempt, I wonder, in an attempt to save on exam costs.

Peter Sarf · 26 Jul 2019

Well. You'll never get spending money on contingencies past the management nowadays. I have seen that in industries other than railways (mind you it is stunning what waste still goes on as well). Everything is pared down to the bone so no room for slack. Everything is planned in the name of optimism. Remember the king could actually be wearing clothes !.

I suppose the desire to get everything done asap does not help but then buying assets and not using them asap is a waste of money. That is how an accountant sees it. But I have failed to get accountants to put a value on damage to reputation in the eyes of customers or upheaval to staff.

hwl · 26 Jul 2019

BRX said:
They only had a few weeks left according to a schedule involving the premature introduction of the new stock, though. Let's say the new stock had not been introduced for another three months - and those three months had been used to test it properly, rectify problems and ensure the availability of at least one 'spare' set before any of it went near the public - I wonder how much would have been saved in compensation payments, and the value of preserving reputation, something harder to put a firm figure on. And the effects on staff that we now see leading to the threat of strike action, which has a cost, potentially a directly financial one.

Presumably there are parts of the highlander fleet that now have the clock ticking on them - is that going to lead to another premature switchover attempt, I wonder, in an attempt to save on exam costs.

I assume that taking have the half a spare rake North from Wembley a few weeks ago was to enable some of the stock to get swapped over if some of it is approaching mileage limits and possible to enable some stock to go for exams now they have a revised plan on aiming for September, presumably they also have a plan C for extra work doing to the old fleet to keep it going beyond then if needed.

BRX · 26 Jul 2019

Peter Sarf said:
buying assets and not using them asap is a waste of money. That is how an accountant sees it.

It must be a lot more expensive to do remedial work and fix teething problems in a large number of restricted timeslots in between service runs, than it would be otherwise.

Peter Sarf · 26 Jul 2019

BRX said:
It must be a lot more expensive to do remedial work and fix teething problems in a large number of restricted timeslots in between service runs, than it would be otherwise.

Indeed. But unfortunately you would have to justify the cost of avoiding that expense before you could prove you needed to do any remedial work !.

One thing that does mitigate the disruption of remedial work is having spare half sets hanging around. Until the Highlander switches over there will be up to five spare half sets in addition to the four half sets required for the lowlander service. That is as I understand it. I guess it is the sheer number and/or complexity of remedial works that is defeating progress.

And as someone said before - there is nothing like actually using a train in normal service to discover problems that testing tends to miss. But back to square one as you cannot predict the un-predictable. Only in a general way can any of us point out the risks. We cannot put a definition on them. Frustratingly you cannot quantify common sense.

More on topic. I suspect there will be new problems discovered once the Highlander does start. This is because its not just two half sets in each direction like the Lowlander. One of the half sets in each direction er - splits and joins to form the Fort William and Aberdeen mini portions - so a half half set scenario !. I think this happens at Edinburgh iirc.

BRX · 26 Jul 2019

Yes, much more complex splitting/joining procedure plus 3 different shunt scenarios at each northern end, plus many more intermediate stops, plus a diffferent loco type, and so on - undoubtedly new problems will be discovered.

Peter Sarf · 26 Jul 2019

BRX said:
Yes, much more complex splitting/joining procedure plus 3 different shunt scenarios at each northern end, plus many more intermediate stops, plus a diffferent loco type, and so on - undoubtedly new problems will be discovered.

Your right. In addition to splitting a half set there are many more shunting manoeuvres than is first apparent. I had forgotten that another locomotive class has to get involved

.

Chrism20 · 26 Jul 2019

Do the shutters come from a shared pool or are they dedicated to a base?

For example is it the case that they can be sent to either Carstairs or Edinburgh on any given night?

If they work between the two it will be a massive benefit when they do switch over. IIRC there were a number of issues with the Carstairs attach/detach in the early days but these seem to have been fixed going by RTT.

The extra split may cause some issues but hopefully they will have learned from the early Carstairs issues and done a bit of work to minimise these.

MrEd · 27 Jul 2019

Chrism20 said:
If the situation isn’t bad enough some fool has posted a picture on twitter of (an alleged) member of CS crew with their kid from Facebook when commenting about the service they have provided onboard.

That’s disgusting, what an appalling thing to do! I know many staff members personally and can honestly say that the majority of them are absolutely excellent, and genuinely nice people who want to help. They do an extremely difficult job in the circumstances, and I can honestly say that they do their very best to solve problems which are not of their making. It’s a very stressful job for staff at the moment, and issues such as food presentation are probably the very least of their worries given all the other faults with the stock (both old and new), which often requires them to be (amongst other things) reallocating berths at short notice (which in some cases results in passengers being required to use the Aberdeen portion rather than the Inverness and vice versa, and onward travel needs to be arranged). While it may be frustrating that these flaws exist given the ticket prices, it is important to remember that the poor staff did not themselves set the fares or break the train. Passengers should be complaining to management, not the on-train staff.

I was not surprised to hear of the strike action, and hopefully this might give CS management the wake-up call that they need, namely that they cannot take their staff for granted, nor can they just leave them to pick up the pieces at times of disruption.

JonathanH · 27 Jul 2019

Seems like I had a lucky trip on Thursday night - the lecturns have gone at Edinburgh so able to take my seat once the train was opened up without any unnecessary queuing - ticket checked by the guard once on board - left Edinburgh on time behind 92020 - coupling all went well at Carstairs, smooth trip through Manchester, used the route via Weedon and into Euston at 0633.

Pretty much exemplary.

GrimShady · 28 Jul 2019

When were the breakfasts ever not in cardboard boxes? My last few excursions on the lowlander circa 2018 all had breakfast in boxes in both first and standard.

Also, now they have announced a bus connection to Oban from Cairnlarich, will this be open to users of the seated sleeper if you were getting off at Glasgow QS or Edinburgh?

BenBru · 28 Jul 2019

I'm away on the Highland Sleeper this week from Crewe. Based on this rather frightening thread I wanted to make sure my son and I have a reasonable time. In addition to the usual things, I wonder whether anyone has suggestions for a 'survival kit'. I'm thinking: ear plugs, something for breakfast, power bank, cash, baby wipes. Can anyone recommend anything else I might need?

185143 · 28 Jul 2019

BenBru said:
I'm away on the Highland Sleeper this week from Crewe. Based on this rather frightening thread I wanted to make sure my son and I have a reasonable time. In addition to the usual things, I wonder whether anyone has suggestions for a 'survival kit'. I'm thinking: ear plugs, something for breakfast, power bank, cash, baby wipes. Can anyone recommend anything else I might need?

Water

GarethC · 28 Jul 2019

BenBru said:
I'm away on the Highland Sleeper this week from Crewe. Based on this rather frightening thread I wanted to make sure my son and I have a reasonable time. In addition to the usual things, I wonder whether anyone has suggestions for a 'survival kit'. I'm thinking: ear plugs, something for breakfast, power bank, cash, baby wipes. Can anyone recommend anything else I might need?

Beyond normal journey preparations, water and something to eat if you know you will be hungry, I think you should be fine, unless you are unlucky.
I travelled north from Euston on Wednesday evening, alighting at Crianlarich for the CS coach to Oban. I have been reading this thread and was a little bit nervous given the heat, and the disruption on Tuesday night's southbound. Originally booked "classic" last October, £20 refunds received the week before travel.

Yes, we did have delayed boarding at Euston, the information regarding this could have been better (very few announcements and only a few tweets). The CS staff on the platform were cheerful and apologised for the delayed boarding (two staff members at the gateline, which was open), we were directed to staff at the front. We checked in with two staff for the Aberdeen/Fort William portion (old style tick list and specify Morning drink). Smiles but there was a sense of tension. Boarded carriage and you could feel the cool in the corridor. AC on cold in the compartment, lovely! Yes the carriages are a bit worn but AC, water and toilets all worked (we had no hot water on the same route in 2015). Morning drinks served 10 mins late with apology from the steward who seemed in a rush, but was pleasant and helpful, even providing extra water. Didn't investigate the lounge etc. We made up the delay and arrived on time.

We had the standard issue water and eye mask, ear plug and soap kits with towel in the compartment.

So all in all a good journey, it was even a bit chilly in the night requiring the duvet, think we would have slept worse at home with no AC.

As with any old stock you will get some issues but nothing seemingly worse than four years ago!

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