supervc-10
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Seems odd to me. I didn't think there was any time where a train would be moving under its own power without lighting!
Seems odd to me. I didn't think there was any time where a train would be moving under its own power without lighting!
It doesn't seem to be a problem in France. You don't hear news stories every day over there about track workers being killed because they didn't see the train.To be honest, what is the problem with both lights and yellow paint? I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that trains with yellow fronts are putting passengers off travelling, and given livery and branding are about getting people to use a service, I can't see why the trendy marketing wonks are being encouraged to remove yellow fronts from new trains just because they can. Once you are on board the interior colour scheme is more important, the yellow front is not a consideration.
I can't help thinking that at some point some walker will get mown down by a non-yellow fronted train on a footpath crossing where low sunlight has rendered the lights less visible, and a black painted front is lacking contrast against the background scenery, and m'learned friends in wigs will be quick to latch onto the lack of yellow fronts being an issue even if everything else was correct. There are a lot of rural foot crossings and farm crossings with only the user's eyes to protect them, and the yellow front can be an important additional aid for non-professionals when having to cross the line.
Oh yes France , where you can just walk across the tracks at gare de lyon and the drivers don't wear any uniform whatsoever when trackside. A real Bastian of safety. UK has safest railway in Europe for a reasonIt doesn't seem to be a problem in France. You don't hear news stories every day over there about track workers being killed because they didn't see the train.
View attachment 66139
This graph is from 2017 and shows how people have died on the railways that year. Bare in mind that the French rail system in general is less safe. Naturally, trespassers are killed the most. Then level crossings, then the passengers themselves. And in 4th, with much less deaths than the other three, railway workers (although this does not just include track workers).
At night, when most deaths should occur, yellow fronts are pointless. Unless it is a moonlit night, you won't be able to see the yellow, but you'll definitely be able to see the blindingly bright LED headlights with ease. On trains with worse headlights, keep the yellow. As somebody said, you could see it before the old incandescent lights. But new trains? Get rid of it. There's no point in the yellow front anymore.
Are the lights not automatic, at least on more modern stock which have been designed to meet the newer requirements?
By mainline here I was referencing the NR network, as opposed to heritage lines and the like.
I used to do this too, when I knew there was a HST arriving at Kingham on the long approach from the Hereford end I would always try and see the livery. But that's not the point.I could tell from a distance whether it was a First blue liveried HST or a GWR green liveried one as the arrangement of yellow on the front was different (GWR green being the fractionally more visible one as a larger block of colour).
I tend to agree - it's just another step away from the integrated network feel. If I started making a fuss just because I hate the way trains have been painted I'd have been boycotting the railways since network south-east days.I also think yellow gives a little uniformity on our network , a relief from the daft mishmash of colour schemes but that's for another discussion!!!
It doesn't seem to be a problem in France. You don't hear news stories every day over there about track workers being killed because they didn't see the train.
View attachment 66139
This graph is from 2017 and shows how people have died on the railways that year. Bare in mind that the French rail system in general is less safe. Naturally, trespassers are killed the most. Then level crossings, then the passengers themselves. And in 4th, with much less deaths than the other three, railway workers (although this does not just include track workers).
At night, when most deaths should occur, yellow fronts are pointless. Unless it is a moonlit night, you won't be able to see the yellow, but you'll definitely be able to see the blindingly bright LED headlights with ease. On trains with worse headlights, keep the yellow. As somebody said, you could see it before the old incandescent lights. But new trains? Get rid of it. There's no point in the yellow front anymore.
I used to do this too, when I knew there was a HST arriving at Kingham on the long approach from the Hereford end I would always try and see the livery. But that's not the point.
In my opinion, we should have kept yellow ends when brighter headlights came in. Do the Class 800s on GWR have the same headlights as the TPE 802s? If so, TPE should paint their units' yellow ends on ASAP as on GWR headlights and yellow ends can work. And that's not from a aesthetic point of view; it's the point of view that it is physically possible to paint yellow on the front of a train with bright headlights.
-Peter
Great post, and welcome to the forum by the way Mark.I wasn't so much worried about the track worker who has to undergo full training - I did the old PTS certificate when they were introduced, and there is a lot of management time devoted to track worker safety which has paid off. After all just a few years ago we were routinely killing track workers to the extent they barely registered a few column inches in the local chipwrap, yet the other week when there was the sad deaths of two workers in Wales it even got a mention in the House of Commons, which if nothing else shows the constant vigilance and training, plus management efforts in health and safety at work, must be having a measurable effect.
My concern is the non professional who finds themselves trackside. The farm worker on a rural route who has to use a farm crossing. Someone using a footpath crossing in an urban area where there is no warning provision or telephone, in an area where lighting is everywhere. Or the family using one of our local footpath crossings where headlights can be obscured by lineside hedges. In these cases a yellow front IN ADDITION TO lighting can be a valuable additional safety feature, helping a train to stand out against the dark natural environment, or the urban background. These footpath crossings and farm crossings are very common and the users are not PTS trained. Of course the yellow end won't be visible at night, but equally lighting can be diminished by bright sunlight, or confused with roadside lighting. I know from using local level crossings here in Wales the yellow front of the local 158s is often seen before the lights due to hedgerows, but the point is not that lights are better than yellow paint, or vice versa, but that for the sake of a pot of paint, both are even better - and that lighting isn't the be all and end all.
One final thing - Irish trains have always had better lighting that their UK counterparts, with roof and cab mounted spotlights being fitted from the 1960s onwards. Yet Ireland and Northern Ireland started painting the fronts of their trains with a yellow warning panel from the mid-1990s onwards and all Irish trains have both high intensity lighting and yellow fronts on both sides of the border. Why would Ireland mandate yellow paint on the front when their trains already had headlights that would put many a lighthouse to shame if it wasn't seen as a useful, belt and braces feature in a country which also has a large number of unmanned user worked farm and foot crossings?
Bull****.Oh yes France , where you can just walk across the tracks at gare de lyon and the drivers don't wear any uniform whatsoever when trackside. A real Bastian of safety. UK has safest railway in Europe for a reason
Did they (intentionally) integrate it or does it just look like part of the livery?I like the way that Stagecoach integrated the yellow into their fronts on SWT and EMT liveries, with the yellow, red, and orange all swooping together.
Oh. Sorry! In all fairness, yes, standing at Kingham, I can see an 800 on the approach earlier thanks to the headlights rather than the yellow ends.I think maybe you've missed the point that I was trying to make, perhaps I wasn't very clear.
My point is that yellow ends do work and was easily noticed, as evidenced by being able to tell the livery from a distance, but with the Class 800s it's not the yellow that's noticed at all. I probably wouldn't even be able to tell from a distance that the front was yellow behind the headlights.
Unless the headlights fail the yellow is no longer necessary (and honestly, I really did think I'd be the last person to say that when the news first came out).
For someone else to confirm, but I don't think so. There will still be a headlight switch/knob.
Black is actually less reflective than any other 'colour'. It's the cabs' glossiness, angles and window/other glass positions which cause reflections.I find the black fronts reflect the sun terribly in certain conditions, I've been dazzled by a 345 by sun bouncing off it. Also it looks terrible. Bring back yellow.
Yellow fronts work(ed) for hundreds of metres away. Without dazzling headlights, which have obviously made determining any colours immediately behind them impossible anyway, they were very effective against what is mostly a darkish background. Rail vehicles are unique in being un-steerable and unstoppable in the short distances that buses and trams are. Modern buses and trams use headlights anyway.Although it has recently dawned on me that yellow fronts aren't particularly about seeing the train from very far away.
Most yellow fronts are dirty anyway, but some GBRF 66 headlights are so bright, you can see them from a good few miles away - you can't see the yellow front.
But I wonder if yellow fronts is more for visual of only a few metres away?
If so, the argument then says why don't buses or trams have yellow fronts?
why don't... trams have yellow fronts?
If you are on the platform then by definition you are in a place of safety. You shouldn't need warning of the approach of a train because you shouldn't be near the platform edge.I also find it a bit disconcerting when I'm on a platform that some electric unit sneaks up on me from nowhere with its headlights hidden below eye-level. Hopefully somebody has done the research though and established that it's all fine.
Are the lights not automatic, at least on more modern stock which have been designed to meet the newer requirements?
By mainline here I was referencing the NR network, as opposed to heritage lines and the like.
No they won't be very visible to someone standing on a platform, that's exactly what I said.If you are on the platform then by definition you are in a place of safety. You shouldn't need warning of the approach of a train because you shouldn't be near the platform edge.
The high-intensity headlamps/marker lights or whatever they are called now were supposed to be dipped so that they could not dazzle an on-coming driver - something that I think has got lost nowadays. Their function was to alert people on the ground, so of course they won't be very visible to someone standing on a platform.
It costs nothing extra to have yellow on the front
Are the lights not automatic, at least on more modern stock which have been designed to meet the newer requirements?
By mainline here I was referencing the NR network, as opposed to heritage lines and the like.
For someone else to confirm, but I don't think so. There will still be a headlight switch/knob.
Yes, I agree, but the point is that you don't really need to see them. Especially if you are keeping away from the platform edge. It's more important not to dazzle the drivers of oncoming trains.No they won't be very visible to someone standing on a platform, that's exactly what I said.
If that happens it is a near-miss and needs reporting and a form 1, but I would hope it doesn't. I can't imagine it being overlooked by any of the drivers I have been with.I was thinking more along the lines of yards, depots and sidings where headlights are not used... (and driver has forgotten to turn on marker lights). A big yellow blob (whether day or night) is a lot easier to see in your peripheral vision when you are on the ground than that of a dark blob.
I was thinking more along the lines of yards, depots and sidings where headlights are not used... (and driver has forgotten to turn on marker lights).