Break of Journey issues [Hypothetical at the moment]

40875704 · 25 Jul 2019

Off to Edinburgh [LNER] on an Advance ticket. Need to change at Donny where there should be enough time to nip off the station and stock up with a bacon butty, cup of tea and other unhealthy stuff from the nearby Greggs.

The rules suggest I’m not allowed to break my journey. Would leaving the station at Donny constitute breaking my journey? For clarity I will be using the services I am booked on.

If present would revenue protection prevent me leaving the station? If not present on leaving but on re entry would they let me back on?

If I am deemed to break my journey what offences would I have committed and how would RP/TOC deal with it?

RailUK Forums

Hadders · 25 Jul 2019

Technically you're not allowed to break your journey but there are no barriers at Doncaster so you'll almost certainly be fine popping out for some supplies.

I've never been refused a break of journey, officially or unofficially, at either a manned barrier or unmanned barrier.

najaB · 25 Jul 2019

Interesting set of questions.

40875704 said:
Would leaving the station at Donny constitute breaking my journey?

Technically, yes.

40875704 said:
If present would revenue protection prevent me leaving the station?

Most likely not.

40875704 said:
If not present on leaving but on re entry would they let me back on?

Just tell them you went for a smoke.

40875704 said:
If I am deemed to break my journey what offences would I have committed and how would RP/TOC deal with it?

You wouldn't have committed any offence that I can think of, unless somehow your Advance ticket to Edinburgh was cheaper than a single to Doncaster so that a RoRA charge was made out. The theoretical absolute worst case would be that you would be made to pay for a new ticket to complete your journey. But the likelihood of that is near zero.

40875704 · 25 Jul 2019

Thx guys and delighted najaB found my questions interesting? I'm taking that as a compliment!!!!

tony_mac · 26 Jul 2019

I see nothing in the conditions that makes this a 'break of journey'; if you are still travelling on your booked trains, then it's fine.

najaB · 26 Jul 2019

tony_mac said:
I see nothing in the conditions that makes this a 'break of journey'; if you are still travelling on your booked trains, then it's fine.

Break of journey isn't currently defined in the NRCoT. However it *used* to be defined as leaving the railway premises.

cuccir · 26 Jul 2019

najaB said:
Break of journey isn't currently defined in the NRCoT. However it *used* to be defined as leaving the railway premises.

I agree with tony_mac: "used to be" is the key phrase here. That definition was removed and we can't expect it to hold. I think as long as you're on your booked trains, you can't be said to be breaking your journey.

Edit - Or, to be exactly precise: I can't see a legal basis for a railway company to argue that you are breaking your journey.

hkstudent · 26 Jul 2019

najaB said:
Interesting set of questions.
Technically, yes.

Most likely not.

Just tell them you went for a smoke.

You wouldn't have committed any offence that I can think of, unless somehow your Advance ticket to Edinburgh was cheaper than a single to Doncaster so that a RoRA charge was made out. The theoretical absolute worst case would be that you would be made to pay for a new ticket to complete your journey. But the likelihood of that is near zero.

Wow, then it would be a very nice "excuse" for a quick shopping at Clapham Junction Mall, while most barrier staff at Clapham Omnibus won't allow people to pass the barrier

Islineclear3_1 · 26 Jul 2019

tony_mac said:
I see nothing in the conditions that makes this a 'break of journey'; if you are still travelling on your booked trains, then it's fine.

Yes, surely if your itinerary involves 2 trains that includes a change and you have sufficient time does it really matter if you leave the station...?

mmh · 26 Jul 2019

hkstudent said:
Wow, then it would be a very nice "excuse" for a quick shopping at Clapham Junction Mall, while most barrier staff at Clapham Omnibus won't allow people to pass the barrier

Doncaster doesn't have barriers, and even if it did I have never had any response to "I'm just going outside for a fag" other than a nod and and the gate opened. I can't imagine why people think it would be any other way.

najaB · 26 Jul 2019

robert7111a said:
Yes, surely if your itinerary involves 2 trains that includes a change and you have sufficient time does it really matter if you leave the station...?

It doesn't, which is why it is very rarely a problem. Clapham Jn seems to be one of the few places that it's been reported as causing travellers some grief.

cuccir said:
Or, to be exactly precise: I can't see a legal basis for a railway company to argue that you are breaking your journey.

I believe that it is still defined in the internal knowledgebase but would need someone with access to confirm. As to the legal basis, we're in danger of counting fairies here, but I think that if a term is defined in Rulebook v1 and then used in Rulebook v2 without being redefined then the definition in v1 would still apply. Certainly I've heard of that principle being applied when new legislation replaces older one.

thejuggler · 26 Jul 2019

I've taken trips into Leeds on a ticket to a destination which required a change and left the concourse to visit WHSmith. I've never a problem using the ticket to get back through the barriers to catch my onward service.

gray1404 · 26 Jul 2019

So its not just myself who has been denied access to use station facilities at Clapham Junction the other side of the gateline when I've been changing trains at Clapham Junction.

If this happens again I shall complain to SWR and escalate to Rail Ombudsmen. Even with the previous definition using station facilities was never a break of journey. Without a definition, provided a customer travels on their booked trains/next appropriate trains in the event of disruption they cannot be said to have broken their journey if they are using station facilities.

This could even amount to grounds to involve the police if there's unlawful detention.

tony_mac · 26 Jul 2019

najaB said:
I think that if a term is defined in Rulebook v1 and then used in Rulebook v2 without being redefined then the definition in v1 would still apply.

a break of journey is when you do not 'make the whole of your journey at the same time'
That's a good enough definition for most purposes. I don't think consumers should ever be expected to look at historical, replaced, documents in order to work out what the rules are supposed to say.

Obviously, some staff will still be familiar with the old rules. And some will try to enforce their own version of the 'rules' anyway.

theironroad · 26 Jul 2019

gray1404 said:
So its not just myself who has been denied access to use station facilities at Clapham Junction the other side of the gateline when I've been changing trains at Clapham Junction.

If this happens again I shall complain to SWR and escalate to Rail Ombudsmen. Even with the previous definition using station facilities was never a break of journey. Without a definition, provided a customer travels on their booked trains/next appropriate trains in the event of disruption they cannot be said to have broken their journey if they are using station facilities.

This could even amount to grounds to involve the police if there's unlawful detention.

Think Clapham area police have better things to be doing tbh. They'd probably not be impressed trying to arbitrate an issue that it seems from this thread to need an army of lawyers with intricate knowledge of railways bylaws and conditions of carriage.

theironroad · 26 Jul 2019

Pretty sure a break of journey is allowed on any ticket for the purpose of connecting trains. How far you roam away is another matter...

Merseysider · 26 Jul 2019

It's exceedingly unlikely that anybody would care, even if there were revenue protection staff present.

amateur · 26 Jul 2019

I thought if you left the premises, then that was classed as BoJ. But if you stayed on the station, and say used the facilities toilet, go for a coffee on site, whsmith, pret or whatever, then that was fine.

londonbridge · 26 Jul 2019

theironroad said:
Pretty sure a break of journey is allowed on any ticket for the purpose of connecting trains. How far you roam away is another matter...

In one instance I was coming back from Tunbridge Wells via Tonbridge/Redhill, got to Tonbridge and found the Redhill train cancelled, leaving me an hours wait for the next one. Told the guy on the barrier I was breaking my journey and going down the high street for a coffee, he let me out, coffee and a quick browse in the charity shops, came back, was let back in for the next train, no issues. Of course I subsequently claimed delay repay and, since my outward journey had also been delayed, got most of that back as well.

sheff1 · 26 Jul 2019

I always go to Greggs if I am changing at Doncaster early morning. I have never encountered a ticket check, but I am willing to place a decent bet that, if ever I did, a simple "I am going to get a sandwich / I have just been for a sandwich" would see me waived through - I would not mention bacon in case the inspector was vegan and took umbrage .

Break of Journey issues [Hypothetical at the moment]

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