I thought they probably were long enough but maybe the rear doors would have been slightly over. I can understand them not taking the risk as you’d be trapped on the rear train otherwise. I think they also thought it would balance the load but there were still people standing after Warrington I the front three as well as people getting on them there when they should have been told to only board the rear two there since they were completely empty. Better communication on the platforms and displays is needed but also it would be less dangerous having the rush if we had 15/16 for the people waiting for the next train.
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Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16
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bunnahabhain
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I believe those are in 20m increments rather than the standard 23m for most 15x and all 17x.
So alongside the diverted Euston to Glasgow trains the Castlefield corridor has to contend with, it's now got diverted Lime Street to Newcastle/ Middlesbrough trains due to signalling issues in the Stalybridge area.
Coupled with 195120 running on one engine only clogging the platform at Oxford Road for 20 minutes, and Piccadilly for 10 minutes, I imagine it should be a fun morning...
Coupled with 195120 running on one engine only clogging the platform at Oxford Road for 20 minutes, and Piccadilly for 10 minutes, I imagine it should be a fun morning...
Killingworth
Established Member
BTW the petition closed after 6 months with only 1114 signatures. Hardly set the world on fire even amongst rail users or enthusiasts.
RWill35396
Member
People's minds are elsewhere and I fear that this is exactly what the powers that be want at this point with other issues higher up on the list of, in my view, misguided importance.
Its not a panacea and will push the problem south because the 4 Northern services through Stockport that terminate at Piccadilly will have to be extended through Castlefield. The Airport cannot handle additional services and in the absence of a flyover at Ardwick that leaves Stockport services as the only option which adds more opportunities for knock on delays. On balance the benefit of two extra through platforms out weighs it but with 16tph using four platforms is equivalent occupancy to platforms 13 and 14 until relatively recently. Oxford Road needs rebuilding first so that its an adequate terminus when Oxford Road to Piccadilly is closed for a long period of time to rebuild platforms 13 and 14 and build 15 and 16.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Or you build 15 & 16 and then close 13 & 14.
Aictos
Established Member
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Indeed that is what should happen but that’s common sense!
I see them as the same project. One big closure, two lovely islands - if 13/14 could stay open, great. But Victoria is good for TPE and p10/11/12 definitely have capacity to turn more.
Hopefully TPTB can invite Mr Shapps/Green up to Manchester to sign off what Grayling left to rot. If it is still extant, this may not be dead.
But they will need to be noisy to grab his attention - if he has designs on actually doing his job, rather than just basking in the will we/won't we limbo.
Hopefully TPTB can invite Mr Shapps/Green up to Manchester to sign off what Grayling left to rot. If it is still extant, this may not be dead.
But they will need to be noisy to grab his attention - if he has designs on actually doing his job, rather than just basking in the will we/won't we limbo.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Well if anyone wishes to contact him, here are the nessecary details
(If this breaks forum rules, I'll remove it)
krus_aragon
Established Member
I doubt it. Official contact details for a Member of Parliament are very much public record.
(It's not like you're sharing his home address or mobile phone number!)
Its not possible due to the layout required due to the site constraints. If 15 and 16 are built then 13 and 14 will be closed for a substantial length of time. It would be easier if Oxford Road had 4 bi directional 200m+ platforms to terminate trains at. Platform 1 cannot be scheduled for regular use in normal circumstances because there is currently no lift or step free access. CLC services would have to terminate there (4tph). If Oxford Road could support 8tph and much longer services then it would be significantly less disruptive. Members of the site who want long distance services to the Airport replaced with shuttle services to and from Piccadilly would get their way for a while. Victoria can't handle additional through services but platform 1 or 2 could probably handle a service diverted via Denton which would maintain some connectivity. On balance its a worthwhile project but lets not pretend it would would be straightforward or solve most problems in central Manchester.
Indeed, however it could help with things until further rail projects come along (NPR?).
Yes, it would be useful and a good idea to build platforms 15 and 16 but there are problems which make it a less ideal solution than people would like to believe. I would rebuild Oxford Road first. A rebuilt platform 1 with lift access would allow platform 2 to be used for CLC terminating services and it would still be a small improvement on todays capacity i.e. 4 through platforms would be available part of each hour compared with 3 today, longer trains possible and reducing the likelihood of crowds on the island platform. If or when Piccadilly 15 and 16 are constructed Oxford Road would then be an adequate temporary terminus.
Killingworth
Established Member
So let's get real. I think a completed platform 15 and 16 project would be excellent, but...........
Say Platforms 15 and 16 are given the go ahead!
Since the project was first mooted passenger numbers have risen steeply with a consistent longer term upwards trend at all the most relevant stations.
Piccadilly in 1997/98 - 13.7 million, 2007/8 - 20.3 million, 2017/18 - 27.7 million
Oxford Road in 1997/98 - 0.4 million, 2006/7 - 4.3 million, 2017/18 - 8.5 million.
Victoria in 1997/98 - 0.4 million, 2006/07 - 5.0 million, 2017/18 - 8.2 million.
Deansgate in 1997/98 - 0.02 million, 2007/08 - 0.1 million, 2017/18 - 0.4 million
Manchester Airport in 1997/98 - 1.1 million, 2007/08 - 2.1 million, 2017/18 - 4.6 million.
After all the necessary updating work and project planning, construction with the best will in the world couldn't start before 2025. By which time passenger numbers are likely to have increased by at least 5-10% and maybe by 25% or more.
It's understood roughly half of Piccadilly's users are using 13 and 14, maybe something in the region of 12-15 million by 2025.
Platform congestion for both passengers and trains will be even worse by then than now.
Construction will take at least 3 years, probably more. By which time passenger growth might have reached 50% from now.
BUT during the construction period where do they all go?
I may be OK?
Sheffield - Manchester stoppers, no change.
Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport, no change.
By then truncated Nottingham - Liverpool can run in via Marple and Ashburys round to Victoria and beyond.
Not so fast. Where does everything else go during the construction period, especially the Manchester Airport routes? There are only so many tracks and platforms. Reversals are a pain. Freight?
OK, much of the work can be done with tracks open, but how much and for how long would major blockades be needed?
We already have pressure on all lines leading into Piccadilly through Stockport and TOCs have franchise commitments that are likely to add more.
Maybe it's getting easier to see how it's a lot simpler to sit on hands and leave the project for the next incumbent/generation.
Maybe my idea of a totally tunnelled new route dead straight between east side of Sheffield beneath Midland to west side of Manchester beneath Piccadilly taking 20-25 minutes might not seem so crazy in another 20 years when the 15 and 16 project has still not been confirmed. And another linked tunnel straight to Leeds, with a third to complete the triangle between Sheffield and Leeds. Maglev anyone?
But doomsayers, gloomsters and the like look up. With my magic wand it will happen with money falling from the sky. Northern Powerhouse Rail is almost here with a vengeance. I am dreaming, of course.
Say Platforms 15 and 16 are given the go ahead!
Since the project was first mooted passenger numbers have risen steeply with a consistent longer term upwards trend at all the most relevant stations.
Piccadilly in 1997/98 - 13.7 million, 2007/8 - 20.3 million, 2017/18 - 27.7 million
Oxford Road in 1997/98 - 0.4 million, 2006/7 - 4.3 million, 2017/18 - 8.5 million.
Victoria in 1997/98 - 0.4 million, 2006/07 - 5.0 million, 2017/18 - 8.2 million.
Deansgate in 1997/98 - 0.02 million, 2007/08 - 0.1 million, 2017/18 - 0.4 million
Manchester Airport in 1997/98 - 1.1 million, 2007/08 - 2.1 million, 2017/18 - 4.6 million.
After all the necessary updating work and project planning, construction with the best will in the world couldn't start before 2025. By which time passenger numbers are likely to have increased by at least 5-10% and maybe by 25% or more.
It's understood roughly half of Piccadilly's users are using 13 and 14, maybe something in the region of 12-15 million by 2025.
Platform congestion for both passengers and trains will be even worse by then than now.
Construction will take at least 3 years, probably more. By which time passenger growth might have reached 50% from now.
BUT during the construction period where do they all go?
I may be OK?
Sheffield - Manchester stoppers, no change.
Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport, no change.
By then truncated Nottingham - Liverpool can run in via Marple and Ashburys round to Victoria and beyond.
Not so fast. Where does everything else go during the construction period, especially the Manchester Airport routes? There are only so many tracks and platforms. Reversals are a pain. Freight?
OK, much of the work can be done with tracks open, but how much and for how long would major blockades be needed?
We already have pressure on all lines leading into Piccadilly through Stockport and TOCs have franchise commitments that are likely to add more.
Maybe it's getting easier to see how it's a lot simpler to sit on hands and leave the project for the next incumbent/generation.
Maybe my idea of a totally tunnelled new route dead straight between east side of Sheffield beneath Midland to west side of Manchester beneath Piccadilly taking 20-25 minutes might not seem so crazy in another 20 years when the 15 and 16 project has still not been confirmed. And another linked tunnel straight to Leeds, with a third to complete the triangle between Sheffield and Leeds. Maglev anyone?
But doomsayers, gloomsters and the like look up. With my magic wand it will happen with money falling from the sky. Northern Powerhouse Rail is almost here with a vengeance. I am dreaming, of course.
Surely you would build the bridge and platforms 15/16 first and allow 13/14 to remain operational. Then when 15/16 are complete, shift services to the new platforms while renovating 13/14 and adding the new concourse area. Of course, I'm not pretending this would probably require a summer and Christmas shutdown at the very least.
I think it's unlikely 13/14 could be closed. As has been mentioned, the sticking point may well be freight. You can jig Oxford Road about a bit, and possibly add some West facing bay platforms at Victoria (has this been mooted before?), but there is literally no other path that the freight trains to Trafford Park can take. Unless they close the platforms to the public and allow services to pass through. The other option might be to close 13/14 in stages a/b, as it is quite a long platform which could cope with limited services calling at either end.
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I think that's what would happen as far as possible but I still think that's at least a couple of months with no platforms in use, probably more. Perhaps the track through platform 13 could be kept in use for freight. It's a very constrained site and the council officially objected to closing the road to facilitate construction. Extending the concourse out while keeping the platforms open would be very tricky. On top of the civils there is the track and signalling. The work to connect the Trafford Park line and to Eccles line at Pomona took 9 days and that was just connecting the viaducts and one locked set of points for future connection. It's a 20 year old light rail viaduct at a much easier site which did not include the stop.
This describes very well why such projects should have been done 10 years ago.
Although it's the same with any projects, even those in London.
There's an argument that if they were built early then the costs would be lower as the level of work which could be done without much disruption would be a greater amount of the project.
Yet no one thought, "look we've seen 4% growth for the last few years, what do we need to think about doing so that we don't print ourselves into a corner over network capacity. Where are the pinch points which will need fixing in the next decade of this continues?". If the schemes had concept designs then when the growth continued then those plans could have been brought out, if growth slowed then they could have been stored for a later date.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
More than that. 13/14 has been an issue in some form pretty much ever since the Windsor Link opened.
I thought one of the advantages was the most of the work on Piccadilly15&16 could be completed with 13&14 being closed.
The Oxford Road part of the plan then... that’s another matter. However Piccadilly and Deansgate are relatively close so could be used by most in place of Oxford Road at a pinch.
The Oxford Road part of the plan then... that’s another matter. However Piccadilly and Deansgate are relatively close so could be used by most in place of Oxford Road at a pinch.
CheshireCrusty
Member
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Can anyone advise what is the current situation with the VTWC Glasgow to London services being diverted through Platform 13/14 and Oxford Road.
Do 13/14 accommodate 11 coach Pendos ?
Do 13/14 accommodate 11 coach Pendos ?
I am aware that most Euston Glasgow services were normally 9 coach pendos but combining the Glasgow - London with the Manchester - London via Wilmslow and Crewe services must create terrible overcrowding south of Manchester even if 11 coaches.
I wonder if Boris had to use Platform 14 when he came to Manchester today?
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krus_aragon
Established Member
They're 277 and 269 meters per the sectional appendix, so it's snug, but they fit.
CheshireCrusty
Member
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Thanks - is there any way of knowing whether a 390 service is 9 coach or 11 coach? I don't pick up that info. from RealTimeTrains?
faltskog36abba
Member
West facing bay platforms at Victoria were mentioned in 2009 in the Manchester hub rail study. However the decision was made to run trains through to Rochdale and Stalybridge, I would think though that extra platforms are needed anyway.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Were there not either new or upgraded bay platforms at both Stalybridge and at Rochdale.
Not from RealTimeTrains no - the 390/0 (9 coach) and 390/1 (11-coach) are in a common pool so anything could turn up.
If you go to http://iris2.rail.co.uk/tiger/, and scroll down to Manchester Picc and click on CIS display, it does tell you what coaches are on a particular run so you can deduce whether it's a /0 or /1.
Agreed, and especially if wires aren't extended beyond Victoria. They seem to be working on an additional east bay platform at the moment.
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