Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

70014IronDuke · 26 Jul 2019

LowLevel said:
It wasn't their decision in the first place. It was a DfT direct award requirement some years ago initially enabled by some unreliable Permit to Travel machines which we paid in in large bundles, subsequently replaced by ticket vending machines which still don't sell the full range of tickets, frequently fail and are insufficient in number for the amount of people needing to use them at peak times.

Sales commission is there to incentivise staff. It goes without saying that initiatives that reduce it while increasing conflict have the opposite effect. The Matlock line used to be particularly lucrative for conductors, now most of the more expensive tickets are bought in advance or on the machines leaving the conductors to mop up afterwards - literally nothing has been done to get them to buy in to the scheme.

I personally always work my trains religiously but it's a fact that different people are motivated by different things and a lot of the more financially motivated guards, formerly very proactive, took the reduction in their income as a personal affront. Particularly when as part of the TVM introduction the company decided to remove our assistant ticket examiner friends as well.

Thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, EMT management did not have to remove the assistant examiners, did they?

Interestingly, I've just checked the station usage figures, and almost all show steady increases in passengers, so many are still doing their job. Intriguingly, Belper had a spectacular near doubling of interchanges last year to 2,259. This is presumably on/off the one train each way per day to Chesterfield!

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Mathew S · 26 Jul 2019

RPI said:
Yes and No, the customer is also entitled to choose how they pay and as long as it's an acceptable method it's their choice, this creates it's own problems as there are plenty of changed a who board without a ticket "I've only got cash mate" holding a tenner, even though you know they're changing there's nothing I can do other than sell a ticket (unless there was a facility to take cash at the station), whilst cash is still an accepted payment method on the railway then a customer can choose to pay that way

Yep. We all know the rules are practically unenforceable, and therefore ignored because there's no way to determine who is genuinely only able to pay with cash, and who's taking the Michael. Hopefully fare simplification will mean TVMs can sell the full range of tickets, which would improve things enormously, especially if introduced with stricter/more enforcement across the board. I know, never going to happen, but I can dream.

Pluto said:
That's up to them, the railway industry doesn't have that option.

Why? It's a business the same as any other.

cuccir said:
But the the railway advertises in advance that you can pay with cash. All it warns is that but - and I Am Not A Lawyer - without saying what those options are I don't think they'd have a very good argument in court for prosecuting someone who failed to buy a ticket on the grounds that they wanted to pay with cash, even if they had other payment methods.

With regards to the core element of this: I agree, conductors are between a rock and a hard place, but beyond having multiple TVMs on all platforms which accept cards, cash and sell all tickets, it's hard to see a solution. Perhaps on-board tickets could be sold on stock with Bylaw 18 printed on the back of them... it's only 138 words and the new crappy paper tickets would probably have space; it would at least mean that anyone buying on board could not say that they hadn't seen this regulation.

It's easily solved. Blanket buy-before-you-board policy, same as Manchester Metrolink. Takes away any debate since no valid ticket = penalty.

Antman · 26 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
Yep. We all know the rules are practically unenforceable, and therefore ignored because there's no way to determine who is genuinely only able to pay with cash, and who's taking the Michael. Hopefully fare simplification will mean TVMs can sell the full range of tickets, which would improve things enormously, especially if introduced with stricter/more enforcement across the board. I know, never going to happen, but I can dream.

Why? It's a business the same as any other.

It's easily solved. Blanket buy-before-you-board policy, same as Manchester Metrolink. Takes away any debate since no valid ticket = penalty.

And how's that going to work when there are no facilities to buy tickets at certain stations?

And are you seriously suggesting cash payments should be abolished? What do you think public reaction to that would be?

Mathew S · 26 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
And how's that going to work when there are no facilities to buy tickets at certain stations?

And are you seriously suggesting cash payments should be abolished? What do you think public reaction to that would be?

1. Install ticket machines. In this day and age, there's really no reason every station can't, as a minimum, have a ticket machine and a help point.
2. No. That's why Promise to Pay is such a sensible system. If ticket machines sold every possible ticket (following fare simplification) that a Promise to Pay would be required to be obtained by any passenger wishing to pay by cash at a station where cash facilities are not available. In such cases, guards or other on-train staff can sell tickets (one advantage the railway has over Metrolink), or they can be purchased at the destination if appropriate.
My point is that a system where there is absolutely no boarding a train without either a ticket or Promise to Pay coupon is perfectly achievable.

And, to answer the question that I'm sure is coming about broken TVMs, the rule would be you contact customer services (phone or help point) and obtain permission to travel or, if not possible, obtain specific permission to travel before boarding from the guard/OBS/ticket examiner/conductor/insert preferred title of onboard staff member here.

Antman · 26 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
1. Install ticket machines. In this day and age, there's really no reason every station can't, as a minimum, have a ticket machine and a help point.
2. No. That's why Promise to Pay is such a sensible system. If ticket machines sold every possible ticket (following fare simplification) that a Promise to Pay would be required to be obtained by any passenger wishing to pay by cash at a station where cash facilities are not available. In such cases, guards or other on-train staff can sell tickets (one advantage the railway has over Metrolink), or they can be purchased at the destination if appropriate.
My point is that a system where there is absolutely no boarding a train without either a ticket or Promise to Pay coupon is perfectly achievable.

And, to answer the question that I'm sure is coming about broken TVMs, the rule would be you contact customer services (phone or help point) and obtain permission to travel or, if not possible, obtain specific permission to travel before boarding from the guard/OBS/ticket examiner/conductor/insert preferred title of onboard staff member here.

I'm afraid this is all totally unworkable.

sprunt · 27 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
Yep. We all know the rules are practically unenforceable, and therefore ignored because there's no way to determine who is genuinely only able to pay with cash, and who's taking the Michael.

Ability to pay with a card is irrelevant. Post #42 quotes language from the penalty fare guidelines about if a customer "wishes" to pay cash.

Why? It's a business the same as any other.

It isn't the same as any other - it's a monopoly supplier of a public service. If you don't like the payment methods accepted by a shop in Manchester, you can visit another shop in Manchester. If you don't like the payment methods accepted by the railway, you can't take your business somewhere else.

Mathew S said:
And, to answer the question that I'm sure is coming about broken TVMs, the rule would be you contact customer services (phone or help point) and obtain permission to travel or, if not possible, obtain specific permission to travel before boarding from the guard/OBS/ticket examiner/conductor/insert preferred title of onboard staff member here.

Alternatively, the railway could* recognise it's a public service, and not erect hoops that the customer has to jump through as a result of its inability to provide a method of buying a ticket.

*Could in the scenario being touted by Matthew S, this isn't a comment on anything it does now.

Sleepy · 27 Jul 2019

I'm not saying I agree with it but London buses have been no cash payments for a while now. Certain large supermarkets are quietly trying to "reduce" cash payments by making some tills card only !! M & S Food store in a station has only 3 tills of which only 1 takes cash ......

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
There are some stations on that line where you can't buy a ticket before boarding, no ticket office (or it's only open for a few hours in the morning) and a TVM that doesn't take cash. Clearly anybody boarding at those stations should not be penalised in any way.

In modern society, the cash bit shouldn't come into it. Other payment forms are common enough and plenty of retail already are card only

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

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Antman · 27 Jul 2019

Mountain Man said:
In modern society, the cash bit shouldn't come into it. Other payment forms are common enough and plenty of retail already are card only

So if you don't have a debit or credit card you can't travel by train? I haven't noticed any businesses being card only and I think cash is going to be around for the foreseeable future.

Antman · 27 Jul 2019

Sleepy said:
I'm not saying I agree with it but London buses have been no cash payments for a while now. Certain large supermarkets are quietly trying to "reduce" cash payments by making some tills card only !! M & S Food store in a station has only 3 tills of which only 1 takes cash ......

The difference is cash can still be used to top up Oyster cards for bus travel.

In my local M&S all check outs including self service ones accept cash.

TrainBoy98 · 27 Jul 2019

Also, a lot of rail users might be older, who may not use cards. This doesn't affect them so much on the buses, as they have bus passes. (Stereotypical I know, but with an ageing population, it's soemthing to consider).

And, even if you have a card, it's still no gaurentee that the TVM will work!

Killingworth · 27 Jul 2019

Human nature!

No ticket machine, users used to board the front carriage in the sub-conscious or deliberate hope the guard/conductor wouldn't walk through the train before they leave. They still do.

We'll pass over the attempts some will make to avoid the guards eye, or maybe we won't. Head down, asleep, engrossed with a screen, it can be genuine, but.....

Ticket machine in place, no cash option. I was at a Hope Valley station recently. There was a large party of walkers. One helpful soul announced he'd get the tickets. Very generous of him? He started churning out at least a dozen promise to pay tickets like confetti. The guard did not patrol the train. I bet more than half of those users had a debit or credit card with them. No barrier at any station other than Piccadilly, none were going there so nobody paid.

Guard/conductor reluctance to check trains for valid tickets if limited commission available is understandable. One confrontation and attending doors is delayed and a late train is soon creating new pressures.

I've observed some guards going through the train at high speed seemingly checking lots of tickets. My eye sight wouldn't be able to scan all those pieces of card (nor process all those phone codes) in half the time - but it's effective even if some users are trying it on with an invalid bar code displayed.

Commission on a £2 ticket is hardly an incentive in itself to collect revenue. However, before the TVMs were installed it was interesting to note the numbers paying for such a ticket with a card, thereby delaying collection from others who had cash to offer.

Once off the train with a promise to pay ticket at an unmanned station the revenue is lost for ever. At a manned but ungated station like Sheffield or York I suspect very few go to the booking office to pay. Maybe I'm too untrusting of my fellow travellers.

Whatever, I'm sure that on some lines without staffed stations the annual passenger estimates based on ticket sales are significantly lower than reality, maybe as much as 25% on some trains? How far away from that reality depends on the effectiveness of on train revenue protection.

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
So if you don't have a debit or credit card you can't travel by train? I haven't noticed any businesses being card only and I think cash is going to be around for the foreseeable future.

Big cities like London and Manchester have plenty of card / electronic payment businesses

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
The difference is cash can still be used to top up Oyster cards for bus travel.

In my local M&S all check outs including self service ones accept cash.

In my local Co op in North West England all the self service are card only

Antman · 27 Jul 2019

Mountain Man said:
Big cities like London and Manchester have plenty of card / electronic payment businesses

I can't recall seeing any that don't accept cash.

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
I can't recall seeing any that don't accept cash.

There a lots. Often food and drink establishments.

Antman · 27 Jul 2019

Mountain Man said:
There a lots. Often food and drink establishments.

Care to name one?

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
Care to name one?

There are multiple to the right if you come out the main entrance to Canary Wharf tube station. I was there recently and asked.

Mathew S · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
Care to name one?

Takk, in Manchester, leaps to mind. There are plenty of others.

InOban · 27 Jul 2019

An increasing number of pubs and other night spots are card only.
Revenue protection should be a core function of on-board staff.

startingaparty · 27 Jul 2019

I got the first train in the morning today. There were a group of lads without tickets so the guard stopped the train and rang the BTP. We waited for 40 minutes at the station for them not to arrive and we ended up departing and they got a free ride. Madness.

Komma · 27 Jul 2019

The new Tottenham Hotspur football stadium is card only.
62,000 people on a Saturday afternoon don't have a choice.

Antman · 27 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
Takk, in Manchester, leaps to mind. There are plenty of others.

Never heard of them and if a coffee shop won't take your cash you just go to another one, train users don't have that option.

Mathew S · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
Never heard of them and if a coffee shop won't take your cash you just go to another one, train users don't have that option.

I feel like I ought to point out that nowhere did I suggest that people shouldn't be able to pay on cash, just that they would be obliged to get a Promise to Pay from a TVM before boarding, and thus agree that they had no other means of payment.

That aside, the railway is a business like any other (whether it should be or not is a discussion for another day) and as such has the absolute right to turn away customers if they so wish, provided that doesn't constitute discrimination under the Equality Act 2010 (and I really can't see that in this circumstance it would).

Mountain Man · 27 Jul 2019

Pluto said:
Never heard of them and if a coffee shop won't take your cash you just go to another one, train users don't have that option.

Neither do attendees at sports stadiums which are going card only.

TrainBoy98 · 27 Jul 2019

Okay, I'm going to sound silly here... But what exactly is a Promise to Pay and how do you get one? I remember the permit to travel machines, but most of these have gone now and the one we do have doesn't work much if ever.

Mathew S · 27 Jul 2019

TrainBoy98 said:
Okay, I'm going to sound silly here... But what exactly is a Promise to Pay and how do you get one? I remember the permit to travel machines, but most of these have gone now and the one we do have doesn't work much if ever.

Not silly at all. When Arriva took over the Northern franchise, they committed to installing ticket machines at the vast majority of unstaffed stations. Most of these are card-only (i.e. you can't pay in cash). They also have implemented penalty fare schemes which include these stations.
This is obviously a problem for customers who are unable to pay by card, as they would not be able to buy a ticket before boarding. So, the (rather elegant I think) solution if you wish to pay by cash is that you choose your ticket from the machine like anybody else but, at the end of the process, if you choose to pay in cash, the machine prints a "Promise to Pay" voucher. You then board the train with this voucher and pay, in cash, for your actual ticket from the guard.
The idea is that it allows penalty fare schemes to be implemented (a good thing) yet still allows people to pay with cash.

MrEd · 27 Jul 2019

LowLevel said:
As I mentioned earlier, this was a paytrain line for well over 40 years. Old habits die hard. Neither staff nor passengers are remotely interested in penalty fares. It costs the staff money and the passengers don't want to use the machines.

What it has done is damage the staff motivation to do their job - previously the conductors would be up and down the Matlock trains like a yo-yo selling tickets and making a decent amount in commission. Now they're expected to go down, get into conflict selling undiscounted local fares or college kid's B Line discounts because the machines don't offer them, and make less money without the company doing anything to mitigate that. Consequently a lot just don't bother.

This 'penalty fares everywhere' policy is rubbish.

I agree with this entirely. The line worked extremely well as a paytrain route, which seemed to me to be a practical, efficient and easy way of working. Clearly, though, this wasn’t acceptable to the powers that be. The result is that we now have (what is effectively- as Duffield and Belper have few or no main line services) a branch line with no staffed stations, of which all have unreliable ticket machines, of which two are penalty fares stations (but not the rest?), where on board staff are routinely harassed by exasperated passengers because the revenue protection policy is nonsensical and unworkable. No wonder the poor conductors are demoralised. All the conductors I ever spoke to on that route were very unhappy with the situation, to say the least; the powers that be were evidently (as usual) fixing something which wasn’t broken. I’m surprised that the union didn’t have more to say about the reduction in conductors’ commission which might have ensued.

I for one would have liked to continue to buy tickets from the conductors on this route, as it contributes to their commission and is in most cases easier than wrestling with the unreliable TVMs, particularly when paying cash. Many passengers still do, but there’s always a danger that an RPI will catch you, and you’ll end up with a PF (or worse). RPIs appear on the route very sporadically in my experience, and I got the impression for a while that EMT had almost stopped bothering to enforce penalty fares on this route, particularly after a series of incidents in which RPIs got treated atrociously by irate passengers (as described above). I’ve not travelled on the route since last year, so don’t know whether this has changed.

I like to think that someone some day will do the sensible thing and end the penalty fares policy from Belper and Duffield. No-one has yet succeeded in explaining to me why only Belper and Duffield were included in the PF scheme, rather than the whole Matlock line, but I’m sure there was a reason somewhere.

Killingworth · 27 Jul 2019

Mathew S said:
So, the (rather elegant I think) solution if you wish to pay by cash is that you choose your ticket from the machine like anybody else but, at the end of the process, if you choose to pay in cash, the machine prints a "Promise to Pay" voucher. You then board the train with this voucher and pay, in cash, for your actual ticket from the guard.
The idea is that it allows penalty fare schemes to be implemented (a good thing) yet still allows people to pay with cash.

However, canny users have got wise to this and take a promise to pay ticket and calculate that 50% of the time the guard/conductor won't get to them before they leave, or won't even leave the back cab.

It would be interesting to know how many promise to pay tickets are exchanged for a paid up ticket.

Do Northern know how many tickets to places like Penzance or Wick are being requested as folks experiment with the machines? It doesn't make any difference to the details printed on the Promise to Pay Notice. To get one you have to say you have no valid card with which to pay. Once on the train you must* pay cash.

They all look the same, only the station where issued, date and time change. See example below.

As an increasing proportion of passengers are now making use of apps and tickets on smartphones the number using tickets from TVMs must be dropping quite noticeably.

*Some guards may still take cards, apparently at their discretion. Maybe because the TVM was out of order, quite a common event. To be on the safe side I'd take a photo of the machine showing it closed with the time and date showing.

Card transactions can be slower to process - and the TOC pays a % to the card processing company with a minimum charge per transaction. I heard that at one time a fare of £2 or less wasn't worth collecting by card due to the minimum fees demanded by the card processor.

Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers

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