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Station Approach Speed.

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bramling

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Why do you prefer faster ? No time is 'wasted' coming in slower.

Looking at things from a passenger perspective, I'm sure we can all think of routes where the timings require spirited running to maintain times. Just thinking of an example close to me, King's Cross to Hitchin in the 1990s used to be timed for 40 minutes. For comparison the same journey on a Thameslink service today with an identical stopping pattern takes 54 minutes, although to be fair there's some stand time in there at a couple of locations. The 40 minutes could just about be achieved on a trusty old class 317, albeit with some hard driving required, and minimal dwell times. Any slow approaches to platforms, starting off on anything less than full power, bad unit, or whatever, and the 40 minutes couldn't be done.
 
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70014IronDuke

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Could be any number of reasons, I know drivers who won't take more than notch 2 of power (out of 4) no matter what the conditions are, they also brake equally as slow.

Going OT - but I'm surprised they can keep time driving like this. What is the traction?

When it comes to braking, obviously there has to be a happy medium. Drivers have to consider passenger safety/comfort - but an excessively slow approach will mean additional time taken by the stop.

I was at Reading early one evening about 12 years ago and was astonished at the speed of an HST arriving from the west. Standing at the end of the platform (was it platform 4, the main up platform on the fast with the old layout?). Anyway, it felt like the HST hit the end of the platform at about 65-70 mph. Seemed to stop perfectly within bounds. I had to catch the next train, so don't know if this was normal.
 

365 Networker

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Not really related to station approaches, but I once heard a story of a WAGN 317 with a driver who was obviously going way over the limit - so when it crossed some points the train jumped slightly! If that had been today the data recorder would more than likely catch this and the driver would be in serious trouble maybe even sacked.
 

bramling

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Going OT - but I'm surprised they can keep time driving like this. What is the traction?

When it comes to braking, obviously there has to be a happy medium. Drivers have to consider passenger safety/comfort - but an excessively slow approach will mean additional time taken by the stop.

I was at Reading early one evening about 12 years ago and was astonished at the speed of an HST arriving from the west. Standing at the end of the platform (was it platform 4, the main up platform on the fast with the old layout?). Anyway, it felt like the HST hit the end of the platform at about 65-70 mph. Seemed to stop perfectly within bounds. I had to catch the next train, so don't know if this was normal.

Highgate on the Northern Line used to be a lovely platform on the southbound, at approximately 130 metres it was quite possible to hit the tailwall at 50 mph and stop right on the mark, albeit with an accompanying burning smell and quite possibly filling the air with dust. Brent Cross southbound was another beauty, hit the ramp at 40 mph and go straight to full service braking and the train would stop right on, even in the wet. Would take a driver with serious nerves to do that though, normally such practices were reserved for empty trains with the starting signal already seen to be clear! OTMR and, more recently, ATP put paid to all this long ago...
 

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Going OT - but I'm surprised they can keep time driving like this. What is the traction?

When it comes to braking, obviously there has to be a happy medium. Drivers have to consider passenger safety/comfort - but an excessively slow approach will mean additional time taken by the stop.

I was at Reading early one evening about 12 years ago and was astonished at the speed of an HST arriving from the west. Standing at the end of the platform (was it platform 4, the main up platform on the fast with the old layout?). Anyway, it felt like the HST hit the end of the platform at about 65-70 mph. Seemed to stop perfectly within bounds. I had to catch the next train, so don't know if this was normal.

I was able to manage something similar in Train Simulator. I think the HST has 6 brake steps.
 

ComUtoR

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I'm sure we can all think of routes where the timings require spirited running to maintain times.

Very true and that is a timing error.

I've driven the 'old school way' where you would stick it all in and then 'brake back,' 'earlier and lighter,' 'step 2 at all times,' '60/60,' and various techniques in between.

Nothing really changes with the timetable. Your still early at the early places and late where its tight. TPWS overspeed is one of the most common incidents across the entire network. Aggressive isn't good. Hard and fast increases your workload and reduces your margin for error. Our current braking policy has been simplified to just 'brake earlier'

Safe and smooth is the way forward.
 

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So it looks like slower approaches will become the norm as more and more older drivers retire and more safety systems are introduced.
 

ComUtoR

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I've never had any driving policy that mandated an approach speed to a station. You have to drive to the conditions, gradients, infrastructure, traction, curvatures, sighting, signals etc etc.

Drivers are much more defensive than they used to be and in all honesty the railway is all the safer for it. Our overshoots have significantly reduced that's for sure.
 

bramling

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So it looks like slower approaches will become the norm as more and more older drivers retire and more safety systems are introduced.

Perhaps. If you really want fast approaches then take a trip on the Victoria Line!

I think there will always be a core of drivers who approach fast as that's their character, same as there will always be slow ones. As long as the former group don't have incidents then that's perfectly fine. What I don't think we'll ever see a return to is charging up to red signals though.
 

dctraindriver

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So it looks like slower approaches will become the norm as more and more older drivers retire and more safety systems are introduced.
There are many older drivers who drive cautiously, this isn’t a new or old, male or female.

Everyone has their own style.

I like to hit the ramp at 30 if it’s a normal platform, short platform 20.

I do not have to release the brake, it’s done the majority of the time smoothly, I hate hard stops.

And with newer stock having quicker acceleration it means it buys time coming into your next stop.

There’s no need to rush and you reduce chances of an incident. Managers need things to do, I don’t want to keep them busy, nor do I want to be removed from the grade....
 

hexagon789

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I was able to manage something similar in Train Simulator. I think the HST has 6 brake steps.

It does, and I've been told it's possible to enter a platform at 50mph and stop smoothly using no more than Step 4.

It does require the brake to already be in Step 4 before entering the platform though.
 

ComUtoR

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You can hit a 12 car platform in a 700 at just under 60mph, stick it in full service (not emergency) and still need to release it before you stop.
 

bramling

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Not really related to station approaches, but I once heard a story of a WAGN 317 with a driver who was obviously going way over the limit - so when it crossed some points the train jumped slightly! If that had been today the data recorder would more than likely catch this and the driver would be in serious trouble maybe even sacked.

If it’s what I’m thinking of, it was 365s on one of the morning peak Cambridge fast services which ran fast from Letchworth to KX. The train was late and the driver made an announcement that he intended to try to make up some time, and that people should “hold on to their hats”. This made local news along with various allegations that the train was struggling to stay on the rails, however I think upon investigation it was found the train was doing all the right speeds, just with some heavy last-minute braking.
 

Mag_seven

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Why is it that some trains come flying into the station, and some come in painfully slow? Is it due to newer drivers being trained differently to older BR trained drivers? Rail conditions?

Please watch these two videos the first one shows a nice fast approach and the other shows a much slower one:-

-Approach begins at 25:18

-Approach begins at 48:54

As you can see there is big difference!

I get a "This video is unavailable" message for both.
 

Kneedown

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It does, and I've been told it's possible to enter a platform at 50mph and stop smoothly using no more than Step 4.

It does require the brake to already be in Step 4 before entering the platform though.

And the risk there changes from overrunning the platform, to stopping short as if you overcook the braking it takes a long time to release on an HST.
 

bramling

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Without wanting to start world war 3 , id suggest sex is a factor!! Certainly at our place a few of the ladies are renowned for their exceptionally slow station approaches!!!!

There is, or perhaps was, one on GN whose braking is excruciatingly poor. Full brakes come in way before most other drivers start to brake, fully released after a few seconds, then same again about ten to fifteen times, finally stopping with a heavy jolt. Worse if the unit’s rheo brake is enabled as the whole display can be heard as well as felt. So messy that it must surely have come up on an assessment, as there’s three or four bad practices there.
 
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Economist

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20mph for a 4-car mark, 25 for a 6-car, 30 for an 8-car and 35 for a 10-12 car usually seems to work well. As does Step 1 on the AWS magnet, Step 2 on the signal in much of metroland. I've had a couple of units where anything less than 35 for an 8 and 40 for a 10-12 results in taking the brake off early but that's very rare.
 

hexagon789

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And the risk there changes from overrunning the platform, to stopping short as if you overcook the braking it takes a long time to release on an HST.

True, but I'd guess there's still enough room to allow the brake to be released before stopping.
 

hexagon789

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It's a very fine line between the two, and one that's best avoided for any Driver who's planning a long career on the footplate.

I don't get the impression it was a normal thing simply that it was something that was possible to do.
 

Fincra5

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I mean, it depends on so many things.

Each driver has their own technique. Each Train has a different braking capability and this varies due to passenger loading, railhead conditions, lenght of train. Each Station is different to brake at (Think Gradients, Railhead conditions). There's Signalling restrictions and so on...

So comparing 2 trains at differen't places is a bit of a pointless exercise.
 

hexagon789

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Because it seems like sometimes when trains come in really slow time would be wasted. This BR Training Film shows a good approach is perfectly acceptable and safe, perhaps drivers are just trained differently now - maybe someone has a copy of the current guidelines and can see what it says on station approaches.

There are two reasons that guidance was changed very soon after that video was made:

1 - using full service so much wore the brake pads at a considerable rate
2 - more importantly it led to many issues in poor adhesion, and after all if you go straight to full service all the time you've no more brake to put in if you misjudge your braking point
 

bramling

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There are two reasons that guidance was changed very soon after that video was made:

1 - using full service so much wore the brake pads at a considerable rate
2 - more importantly it led to many issues in poor adhesion, and after all if you go straight to full service all the time you've no more brake to put in if you misjudge your braking point

Cracking video. Point (1) above is of course mitigated by rheostatic or regenerative braking on electric trains. Rheostatic braking is wonderful - less heat generated, good braking effort, less dust generated, minimal brake bad wear to name the obvious benefits.

As regards point 2, this can be sort of turned on its head by taking the view that if one hasn’t put enough brake in initially then it might be too late to put more in. The whole thing is a complex subject, which explains why there’s so much variation between individuals.
 

hexagon789

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As regards point 2, this can be sort of turned on its head by taking the view that if one hasn’t put enough brake in initially then it might be too late to put more in. The whole thing is a complex subject, which explains why there’s so much variation between individuals.

If you brake early enough, surely that's not an issue, and at least if you do brake too late you can increase the brake setting.
 

380101

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25mph maximum at platform ramps for ScotRail drivers. It's in our Professional Driver's Policy. Doesn't matter how long the plaform or unit is, it's always 25 max. 15mph max at AWS magnets on approach to red signals and 15mph at the ramp of a buffer end platform.
 

edwin_m

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Point (1) above is of course mitigated by rheostatic or regenerative braking on electric trains. Rheostatic braking is wonderful - less heat generated, good braking effort, less dust generated, minimal brake bad wear to name the obvious benefits.
However rheostatic or regenerative braking only works on motored axles, and maximum braking rate (depending on train type) also needs to use the friction brakes on the other axles. So to maximise these benefits it may be necessary to brake relatively gently.
 

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25mph maximum at platform ramps for ScotRail drivers. It's in our Professional Driver's Policy. Doesn't matter how long the plaform or unit is, it's always 25 max. 15mph max at AWS magnets on approach to red signals and 15mph at the ramp of a buffer end platform.

I think Greater Anglia has a similar policy.
 

bramling

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I think Greater Anglia has a similar policy.

Seems rather overkill to me, especially on suburban duties where there's a high proportion of stop/start work.

30-35 mph for a 100m platform is quite reasonable in normal conditions without pushing the boat out, and as posted elsewhere a 250m platform (roughly equivalent to a 12-car train) can manage quite a bit more without risking an incident. Obviously a different matter if the signal is 'on'.

I'd say it's inviting more problems enforcing a slow approach, where this then introduces issues like possibly releasing mid-way down the platform, or having to judge a braking point in the middle of a platform where there are fewer reference points and less margin for error if the brakes don't come on as expected, or for the dreaded false sense of security to set in where the mind normalises a situation then zones out - the cause of so many SPADs (*).

(* there's a red signal, this one's always on and I'm going nice and slowly so everything's nicely under control, guard dropped <short period of inattentiveness> OH S**T, handle to emergency, overrun the signal by a small distance - very common scenario).
 
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