Bluebell Railway reports a loss of £220,000

PUFFINGBILLY · 28 Jul 2019

A £220,000 loss in last financial year, resignation of chairman & general manager, reduction of operating days - another heritage railway in trouble. I wonder if these might be some of the reasons:
Many years ago the opportunity of installing a turntable was missed due to internal squabbling, such squabbling continues regarding the daft idea of re-opening the branch to Haywards Heath. There is/was a faction behind engine shed doors that just want to play with spanners & welders & avoid all contact with the public. Stray into their area by mistake & you will encounter rudeness - I know for I strayed once. The novelty of the East Grinstead BR connection has waned, nobody can park at Kinsgcote so it remains in isolation giving little reason for rail travellers to alight there. Sheffield Park is an architectural mess, the café offers poor service & the organisation knows it, yet the museum is one of the best & the engine shed re-arrangement just misses being Disneyfied unlike York.
When a certain executive joined staff & volunteers were swamped with corporate self-important pretentious Gobly Gook running to endless pages of reports the contents of which few understood, but it kept people employed writing it all.
These are the views of a one-time volunteer & very very occasional visitor. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

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big all · 28 Jul 2019

are they still anti diesel as thats one reason i don't go there

Cowley · 28 Jul 2019

big all said:
are they still anti diesel as thats one reason i don't go there

Not as much as it was. They’ve held a few successful diesel galas over the last few years, and have had at least a couple of diesels based there (a couple of 08’s, a 33 and a class 73 ED when work to extend the line was happening?) and 09018 is currently part of the fleet.

That’s a hefty loss. I’m assuming a major shakeup might be on the cards?

Paul Hitchcock · 28 Jul 2019

PUFFINGBILLY said:
A £220,000 loss in last financial year, resignation of chairman & general manager, reduction of operating days - another heritage railway in trouble. I wonder if these might be some of the reasons:
Many years ago the opportunity of installing a turntable was missed due to internal squabbling, such squabbling continues regarding the daft idea of re-opening the branch to Haywards Heath. There is/was a faction behind engine shed doors that just want to play with spanners & welders & avoid all contact with the public. Stray into their area by mistake & you will encounter rudeness - I know for I strayed once. The novelty of the East Grinstead BR connection has waned, nobody can park at Kinsgcote so it remains in isolation giving little reason for rail travellers to alight there. Sheffield Park is an architectural mess, the café offers poor service & the organisation knows it, yet the museum is one of the best & the engine shed re-arrangement just misses being Disneyfied unlike York.
When a certain executive joined staff & volunteers were swamped with corporate self-important pretentious Gobly Gook running to endless pages of reports the contents of which few understood, but it kept people employed writing it all.
These are the views of a one-time volunteer & very very occasional visitor. I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I have heard similar comments from another source which I cannot confirm or deny. The Bluebell is a branch line which seems to have forgotten that it is. It was both amusing and exasperating to see they had a Branch Line Weekend recently. What the expletive deleted do they think it is? Hardly surprising that last year produced a significant loss.

PUFFINGBILLY · 28 Jul 2019

VERY VERY blinkered no diesel policy for years. This attitude, an extension of forever boasting about how the railway was 'the first standard gauge restored line' & how it is'100% steam' is a view held of a few influential diehards living in another universe & totally blind to the fact that the BBR is a business not their personal hobby which cannot rely on puffer-train anoraks & photographers for income.
What is beyond the control of the BBR is that the route is through pleasant enough country with views that are no different than you get by car with the exception of a tunnel & a brief aerial view of roofs as you approach East Grinstead itself which has never been a major destination of choice for holidaymakers/visitors.
I recently travelled on the nearby Kent & East Sussex Railway & was utterly charmed by its scale & varied scenery which made the BBR look so corporate (guides in lurid pink tabards for instance ). But the K&ESR has its challenges foremost trying to get volunteers in a relatively poorly populated part of the country. BBR sometimes looks as if it has too many with uniformed volunteers hanging around in groups trying to find something to do.

43096 · 28 Jul 2019

PUFFINGBILLY said:
VERY VERY blinkered no diesel policy for years. This attitude, an extension of forever boasting about how the railway was 'the first standard gauge restored line' & how it is'100% steam' is a view held of a few influential diehards living in another universe & totally blind to the fact that the BBR is a business not their personal hobby which cannot rely on puffer-train anoraks & photographers for income.
What is beyond the control of the BBR is that the route is through pleasant enough country with views that are no different than you get by car with the exception of a tunnel & a brief aerial view of roofs as you approach East Grinstead itself which has never been a major destination of choice for holidaymakers/visitors.
I recently travelled on the nearby Kent & East Sussex Railway & was utterly charmed by its scale & varied scenery which made the BBR look so corporate (guides in lurid pink tabards for instance ). But the K&ESR has its challenges foremost trying to get volunteers in a relatively poorly populated part of the country. BBR sometimes looks as if it has too many with uniformed volunteers hanging around in groups trying to find something to do.

My first (and so far only) experience of the Bluebell was a few years ago at a diesel event. First up I encountered an officious twerp marching up and down a crowded platform at East Grinstead telling people to stand behind the line on the platform (a non-existent line as several people pointed out). It left the impression of a rather arrogant railway that was disappearing up its own self-important backside.

Adsy125 · 28 Jul 2019

I'm not sure why there's such a hate of the Bluebell on here. I've done it twice in the current decade, both times were lovely. They did used to be steam only, but recently there have been diesel galas which have been well spoken of by people I know. The coaches are lovely, especially the pre WW2 ones, and the line is pretty, with some lovely locos. Obviously if your a diesel fan it isn't really the line for you, but for everyone else (which I'm sorry to say is a majority) steam is better.

Enthusiast · 28 Jul 2019

I have been a Life Member of the BBR for many years. I agree that in some respects it has certainly lost its way. However, before that, in its defence it suffers one or two major problems which are beyond its control.

Its principle shortcoming, of course, is its location. Until 2012 it went from the middle of nowhere (Sheffield Park) to the middle of nowhere else (Kingscote). The extension to East Grinstead scarcely improved matters. It meant simply the replacement of one terminus in the middle of nowhere else with another on the outskirts of a small, rather uninteresting town where the principle attraction is a medium sized Sainsbury’s supermarket.

The second problem is the effect that extension has had on the Railway’s resources. That mile or so consumed huge amounts of volunteer resources and paid contractor work over many years. This included more than £4m to clear a short cutting which had been used as a municipal waste tip and six figures worth of specialist work to restore the viaduct leading into East Grinstead itself. As mentioned, the relative novelty of that extension has now worn off and the envisaged growth in visitors which the connection with the main line was forecast to bring about has largely failed to materialise. But the extension cost the railway dearly and a by product of that was a serious shortage of motive power from which it is only just beginning to recover.

The Railway’s (almost) “steam only” policy is proving an expensive encumbrance. The long preparation time needed for steam means that early services are difficult to provide and any failure in steam locomotives severely jeopardises the service with only a Gronk available as a Thunderbird. The diesel galas which they have hosted (especially the “Deltic” event two or three years back) demonstrated that they can attract visitors without steam provided the alternative is “interesting”.

The BBR has a large collection of interesting locomotives, some of which have never steamed whilst in its possession and a number of others which have not moved under their own power for many years. These include a Bulleid “West Country” (Blackmore Vale) and a “9F”. These are slowly but very surely deteriorating (even though kept under cover) and are unlikely to see the light of day for many years to come. But the Railway steadfastly refuses to consider disposing of any of these to places where they may be restored in much shorter order (as well as providing the Bluebell with much needed funds). It has spent a fortune (not a small fortune, a fortune) extending its undercover accommodation and continues to do so. On the plus side its collection of carriages and their restoration is superb. The “Golden Arrow” Pullman Dining train is the best heritage dining I have experienced and is always well booked, despite passengers having to get to Sheffield Park to join it.

The new Chairman of the Preservation Society seems to come from a background where governance, processes and procedures are paramount and delivery of a service is secondary. A year or so ago he wrote a lengthy article for “Bluebell News” which was all but incomprehensible to those outside such circles.

I believe the BBR is at a crossroads. It needs to make some serious decisions about what it is for, what it aims to do and how it will get the funds to do it. It should abandon for the foreseeable future any plans to extend to Ardingly and beyond to Haywards Heath (though I believe the only expenditure being authorised is for absolutely essential work to preserve the route). It needs to develop ways to cover its operating costs. Currently it is principally an “enthusiasts” railway but it needs to attract both that audience and general visitors. The trouble is, I don’t have the confidence that the current directors and managers have developed a strategy to achieve that.

Cowley · 28 Jul 2019

Enthusiast said:
I have been a Life Member of the BBR for many years. I agree that in some respects it has certainly lost its way. However, before that, in its defence it suffers one or two major problems which are beyond its control.

Its principle shortcoming, of course, is its location. Until 2012 it went from the middle of nowhere (Sheffield Park) to the middle of nowhere else (Kingscote). The extension to East Grinstead scarcely improved matters. It meant simply the replacement of one terminus in the middle of nowhere else with another on the outskirts of a small, rather uninteresting town where the principle attraction is a medium sized Sainsbury’s supermarket.

The second problem is the effect that extension has had on the Railway’s resources. That mile or so consumed huge amounts of volunteer resources and paid contractor work over many years. This included more than £4m to clear a short cutting which had been used as a municipal waste tip and six figures worth of specialist work to restore the viaduct leading into East Grinstead itself. As mentioned, the relative novelty of that extension has now worn off and the envisaged growth in visitors which the connection with the main line was forecast to bring about has largely failed to materialise. But the extension cost the railway dearly and a by product of that was a serious shortage of motive power from which it is only just beginning to recover.

The Railway’s (almost) “steam only” policy is proving an expensive encumbrance. The long preparation time needed for steam means that early services are difficult to provide and any failure in steam locomotives severely jeopardises the service with only a Gronk available as a Thunderbird. The diesel galas which they have hosted (especially the “Deltic” event two or three years back) demonstrated that they can attract visitors without steam provided the alternative is “interesting”.

The BBR has a large collection of interesting locomotives, some of which have never steamed whilst in its possession and a number of others which have not moved under their own power for many years. These include a Bulleid “West Country” (Blackmore Vale) and a “9F”. These are slowly but very surely deteriorating (even though kept under cover) and are unlikely to see the light of day for many years to come. But the Railway steadfastly refuses to consider disposing of any of these to places where they may be restored in much shorter order (as well as providing the Bluebell with much needed funds). It has spent a fortune (not a small fortune, a fortune) extending its undercover accommodation and continues to do so. On the plus side its collection of carriages and their restoration is superb. The “Golden Arrow” Pullman Dining train is the best heritage dining I have experienced and is always well booked, despite passengers having to get to Sheffield Park to join it.

The new Chairman of the Preservation Society seems to come from a background where governance, processes and procedures are paramount and delivery of a service is secondary. A year or so ago he wrote a lengthy article for “Bluebell News” which was all but incomprehensible to those outside such circles.

I believe the BBR is at a crossroads. It needs to make some serious decisions about what it is for, what it aims to do and how it will get the funds to do it. It should abandon for the foreseeable future any plans to extend to Ardingly and beyond to Haywards Heath (though I believe the only expenditure being authorised is for absolutely essential work to preserve the route). It needs to develop ways to cover its operating costs. Currently it is principally an “enthusiasts” railway but it needs to attract both that audience and general visitors. The trouble is, I don’t have the confidence that the current directors and managers have developed a strategy to achieve that.

A very interesting and well thought out post.
From the outside looking in it seems like the line has everything needed to be successful (history, pleasant scenery, superb historic rolling stock, not too long, well established, and an easy train journey from a very large city).
It really seems though having read these last few posts that something on the management front really needs to change?
Isn’t it also telling that yet another line that seems to have some internal squabbling simmering under the surface is (as mentioned by PUFFINGBILLY in post #1) having financial problems?

Peter Mugridge · 28 Jul 2019

Enthusiast said:
...the envisaged growth in visitors which the connection with the main line was forecast to bring about has largely failed to materialise.

That may be down to poor connection opportunities. I don't live all that far away, in Epsom, but have a look at the timings that it would involve for me and you will see the point easily. Look at yesterday, for example. The Bluebell has an 11.45 departure from East Grinstead, but what time does the train from Victoria arrive at the main line station over the road? 11.50.

So, to aim for the 11.45 I would have to be on the previous main line arrival at 10.50, which is the 09.57 from Clapham Junction - the easiest place to change from Epsom. To do that, well... the Dorking to Waterloo gets to Clapham Junction, cross platform, ten minutes earlier but would you risk a ten minute connection knowing that if you miss it you'll be festering at East Grinstead until 13.30, the next Bluebell departure? Especially since it's not cross platform. There's a Dorking to Victoria which is cross platform, but that's only a 3 minute margin so that's out of the question.

You wouldn't risk it, so you'd be aiming at the one before that. That's the 09.04 from Epsom, again not cross platform at Clapham Junction as it's another Waterloo one. There's an 09.01 from Epsom which is cross platform, but that was cancelled yesterday.

Either way, to stand any chance of using that 11.45 Bluebell service, you have to leave Epsom at nine. That means getting up at around 07.30. As an enthusiast on my own, I could stomach that or even an earlier start to get the 10.30 Bluebell departure, but for a family day out? Forget it - I'd be getting complaints about the length of the journey just to get there, never mind the nearly an hour long fester, before the connection even reached Oxted let alone East Grinstead...

Then try to add in the return journey and a suitable time to look around on the Bluebell itself... and this is just from Epsom, not a huge distance away.

My assumption is that the 75 minutes interval at East Grinstead is dictated by passing opportunities on the Bluebell itself, but even so having it timed to pull out of East Grinstead just before there is an arrival from Victoria is not a good way of attracting custom.

Paul Hitchcock · 28 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
That may be down to poor connection opportunities. I don't live all that far away, in Epsom, but have a look at the timings that it would involve for me and you will see the point easily. Look at yesterday, for example. The Bluebell has an 11.45 departure from East Grinstead, but what time does the train from Victoria arrive at the main line station over the road? 11.50.

So, to aim for the 11.45 I would have to be on the previous main line arrival at 10.50, which is the 09.57 from Clapham Junction - the easiest place to change from Epsom. To do that, well... the Dorking to Waterloo gets to Clapham Junction, cross platform, ten minutes earlier but would you risk a ten minute connection knowing that if you miss it you'll be festering at East Grinstead until 13.30, the next Bluebell departure? Especially since it's not cross platform. There's a Dorking to Victoria which is cross platform, but that's only a 3 minute margin so that's out of the question.

You wouldn't risk it, so you'd be aiming at the one before that. That's the 09.04 from Epsom, again not cross platform at Clapham Junction as it's another Waterloo one. There's an 09.01 from Epsom which is cross platform, but that was cancelled yesterday.

Either way, to stand any chance of using that 11.45 Bluebell service, you have to leave Epsom at nine. That means getting up at around 07.30. As an enthusiast on my own, I could stomach that or even an earlier start to get the 10.30 Bluebell departure, but for a family day out? Forget it - I'd be getting complaints about the length of the journey just to get there, never mind the nearly an hour long fester, before the connection even reached Oxted let alone East Grinstead...

Then try to add in the return journey and a suitable time to look around on the Bluebell itself... and this is just from Epsom, not a huge distance away.

My assumption is that the 75 minutes interval at East Grinstead is dictated by passing opportunities on the Bluebell itself, but even so having it timed to pull out of East Grinstead just before there is an arrival from Victoria is not a good way of attracting custom.

Another very interesting posting. It sounds as if the situation is another instance of wishful thinking about connections with Network Rail (or its predecessors) coming up against the cold blast of reality. People will use what ever means to visit these lines as suits them which may well not be the means which meets the approval of placard waving railway enthusiasts. The Bluebell is likely to be joined by others with similar miscalculations before too long.

muddythefish · 28 Jul 2019

The Bluebell is a lovely line with beautiful scenery and stations and outstanding rolling stock but as with most failing organisations, it seems to me its problems start at the top. Poor management and lack of leadership often results in simmering tensions among volunteers, unsatisfactory customer service, sagging income and, in the end, losses on the bottom line.

Over the decades there have been periods of unrest among SVR volunteers when the railway's management have been perceived to be either too dictatorial, condescending towards volunteers or appearing to be running the railway as their own feifdom. Three prominent figures made themselves very unpopular and ultimately were forced out.

Maybe the Bluebell's volunteers (those that care) need to do the same ?

big all · 29 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
That may be down to poor connection opportunities. I don't live all that far away, in Epsom, but have a look at the timings that it would involve for me and you will see the point easily. Look at yesterday, for example. The Bluebell has an 11.45 departure from East Grinstead, but what time does the train from Victoria arrive at the main line station over the road? 11.50.

So, to aim for the 11.45 I would have to be on the previous main line arrival at 10.50, which is the 09.57 from Clapham Junction - the easiest place to change from Epsom. To do that, well... the Dorking to Waterloo gets to Clapham Junction, cross platform, ten minutes earlier but would you risk a ten minute connection knowing that if you miss it you'll be festering at East Grinstead until 13.30, the next Bluebell departure? Especially since it's not cross platform. There's a Dorking to Victoria which is cross platform, but that's only a 3 minute margin so that's out of the question.

You wouldn't risk it, so you'd be aiming at the one before that. That's the 09.04 from Epsom, again not cross platform at Clapham Junction as it's another Waterloo one. There's an 09.01 from Epsom which is cross platform, but that was cancelled yesterday.

Either way, to stand any chance of using that 11.45 Bluebell service, you have to leave Epsom at nine. That means getting up at around 07.30. As an enthusiast on my own, I could stomach that or even an earlier start to get the 10.30 Bluebell departure, but for a family day out? Forget it - I'd be getting complaints about the length of the journey just to get there, never mind the nearly an hour long fester, before the connection even reached Oxted let alone East Grinstead...

Then try to add in the return journey and a suitable time to look around on the Bluebell itself... and this is just from Epsom, not a huge distance away.

My assumption is that the 75 minutes interval at East Grinstead is dictated by passing opportunities on the Bluebell itself, but even so having it timed to pull out of East Grinstead just before there is an arrival from Victoria is not a good way of attracting custom.

another choice is 1023 via dorking arrive redhill at 1106 then 400 bus at 1127 to east grinsted arrive 12 34 yes protracted and very boring but another choice
yes the weight is over the top at east grinstead but at least a choice

PUFFINGBILLY · 29 Jul 2019

Adsy125 said:
I'm not sure why there's such a hate of the Bluebell on here. I've done it twice in the current decade, both times were lovely. They did used to be steam only, but recently there have been diesel galas which have been well spoken of by people I know. The coaches are lovely, especially the pre WW2 ones, and the line is pretty, with some lovely locos. Obviously if your a diesel fan it isn't really the line for you, but for everyone else (which I'm sorry to say is a majority) steam is better.

NOT a hate or rant merely a personal observation from somebody who has been active & managed in the volunteer sector for 30 years & with the BBR for more than (only) 10 years.

Why · 29 Jul 2019

Being a member of Bluebell living in Essex I know what you mean about 11.45 service, personally would love to do more often with my Network Railcard cant quite make that train at EG therefore without traveling by car and enduring the M25 at Dartford do not go more than once a year.

Re diesels, loved the diesel special weekends days and was disappointed to find that they do not appear this year (and think if memory correct last year also?).
Believe last time they had issues with failed diesel locos and sure not cheap bringing in from around the UK but did seem very well attend?

I personally would say the scenery out the window is stunning at any time of the year, Past the Viaduct at East Grinstead you barely see a house again just fields and rolling landscape then the biggest station serving no one around in Horsted Keynes!!
I would also recommend getting off at Kingscote taking a sandwich and listening to .......well nothing,though i did hear a woodpecker give himself a headache one year. not many places 30 odd miles away from the centre of London do you get that......

eastwestdivide · 29 Jul 2019

If anyone wants the full accounts from Companies house, the 2nd PDF link here supplies it:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01966061/filing-history
Year ended 31 Dec 2018: Turnover of £3.8 million, loss of £220k
Year ended 31 Dec 2017: Turnover of £4.2 million, loss of £3.5k
The "Strategic Report" on p4-5 of the PDF is too long to quote here (and it's scanned, not copyable text anyway), but it does contain the line "Inevitably some difficult decisions will have to be made..."

Enthusiast · 29 Jul 2019

The results in 2017 were considerably enhanced by the visit of "Flying Scotsman".

DarloRich · 29 Jul 2019

Cowley said:
It really seems though having read these last few posts that something on the management front really needs to change?

muddythefish said:
Maybe the Bluebell's volunteers (those that care) need to do the same

Or that the volunteers need to acknowledge this is 2019 not 1952 and that they need to join the modern world. I suspect the real issue is that things like ROGS and ORR pressure means that simply playing trains like in them olden days isnt acceptable anymore. Professional management and compliance with standards are required these days.

Peter Mugridge said:
Look at yesterday, for example. The Bluebell has an 11.45 departure from East Grinstead, but what time does the train from Victoria arrive at the main line station over the road? 11.50.

agreed - stupidity like this doesn't help generate passenger numbers.

Adsy125 said:
I'm not sure why there's such a hate of the Bluebell on here. I've done it twice in the current decade, both times were lovely. They did used to be steam only, but recently there have been diesel galas which have been well spoken of by people I know. The coaches are lovely, especially the pre WW2 ones, and the line is pretty, with some lovely locos. Obviously if your a diesel fan it isn't really the line for you, but for everyone else (which I'm sorry to say is a majority) steam is better.

I have visited a couple of times and found it a lovely railway which I enjoyed riding on.

PUFFINGBILLY · 29 Jul 2019

Enthusiast said:
The results in 2017 were considerably enhanced by the visit of "Flying Scotsman".

A one-off as was the A4 & no doubt others including the inevitable pointless endless list of new-builds. Such interest is temporary plus the FS/A4 & their like running tender first at 25mph looked ridiculous.

PUFFINGBILLY · 29 Jul 2019

Cowley said:
A very interesting and well thought out post.
From the outside looking in it seems like the line has everything needed to be successful (history, pleasant scenery, superb historic rolling stock, not too long, well established, and an easy train journey from a very large city).
It really seems though having read these last few posts that something on the management front really needs to change?
Isn’t it also telling that yet another line that seems to have some internal squabbling simmering under the surface is (as mentioned by PUFFINGBILLY in post #1) having financial problems?

Agreed & put better than I was trying to. Bit taken aback that my views are shared, as was convinced I was alone.
Given the modesty & charm of other local heritage railways in the area & despite their challenges I have no confidence whatsoever that the BBR will survive or is worth saving.
Off to the Swanage Railway (another absolute charmer) come September, prefer the 3 hour trip than the 1 hour to the BBR.

Stew998 · 29 Jul 2019

eastwestdivide said:
If anyone wants the full accounts from Companies house, the 2nd PDF link here supplies it:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01966061/filing-history
Year ended 31 Dec 2018: Turnover of £3.8 million, loss of £220k
Year ended 31 Dec 2017: Turnover of £4.2 million, loss of £3.5k
The "Strategic Report" on p4-5 of the PDF is too long to quote here (and it's scanned, not copyable text anyway), but it does contain the line "Inevitably some difficult decisions will have to be made..."

I think it worth pointing out that the report also states that "over recent years the Company has generally reported small annual losses of circa £220k per annum and the breakeven results for 2013 and 2017 were only achieved against the background of the profit retained from the opening of the Northern Extension in 2013 and Flying Scotsman's visit in 2017...." You also have to bear in mind that the The Bluebell Railway PLC has the support of the Bluebell Railway Trust to fund major capital projects etc.

So a loss of £220k in and of itself is certainly not unusual or a cause for undue concern. It seems that the railway recognises it is operating in a changing environment and is sensibly taking steps to address this; it is not steaming off a cliff!

Full disclosure: I am a longstanding member of the preservation society (not the same thing as the Company or the Trust), former volunteer and a local resident who visits several times a year.

duffield · 29 Jul 2019

In theory, the East Grinstead connection should be a very good thing, given that quite a lot of London dwellers don't have cars. I've certainly been put off visiting due to the poor connections; the Bluebell should aim for its most popular departure at least to leave about 20-30 mins after the NR arrival time.

ainsworth74 · 29 Jul 2019

I must admit I find it staggering that they've not timed their departures and arrivals at East Grinstead to connect nicely to National Rail services thereby shooting themselves in the foot and surely wasting the promise of this connection!

It's one thing if they'd had their HQ and all the sorts of interesting things like workshops, cafes or shops there to occupy passengers waiting for a train but as I recall it's little more than a platform and ticket office/cabin.

Shenandoah · 29 Jul 2019

43096 said:
My first (and so far only) experience of the Bluebell was a few years ago at a diesel event. First up I encountered an officious twerp marching up and down a crowded platform at East Grinstead telling people to stand behind the line on the platform (a non-existent line as several people pointed out). It left the impression of a rather arrogant railway that was disappearing up its own self-important backside.

I wonder how many visitors to tourist lines are put off revisiting after they encounter authoritarian attitudes such as 'I'm in charge', or 'this is my railway' sometimes encountered in these lines. Many years ago I used to visit Totnes, (only a few miles from home) on my day off, where my daughter lived at the time. W wandered from the main line station to the Littlehemspton terminal. Lovely summer day. lot of people looking around, some awaiting a train. What was quite noticeable was a volunteer, with his dog, strutting up and down the platform. I never fathomed out why he did it, maybe he was regimental and wanted everyone to keep order? :lol:

Or was he simply letting everyone now he 'was in charge'?
On another occasion, also some years ago, same railway but at Buckfastleigh, I was maing a regular visit to a nearby place (one of Devon's No, 1 tourist attractions as it happens) but decided to call in at the railway to briefly say hello to the owner of the restaurant who sold model railways. I had bought quite a few items (OO) in the past from him. I parked to see if he was there, ut as I got out of my car was instantly challenged by someone in a peaked cap and told not to park there. No question why I was there, or what I intended to do. I have never visited the line since.

Islineclear3_1 · 29 Jul 2019

ainsworth74 said:
It's one thing if they'd had their HQ and all the sorts of interesting things like workshops, cafes or shops there to occupy passengers waiting for a train but as I recall it's little more than a platform and ticket office/cabin.

Probably just as well as there are rather a lot of unsavoury characters in EG who would be happy to vandalise the place

Which is a real shame...

PUFFINGBILLY · 29 Jul 2019

robert7111a said:
Probably just as well as there are rather a lot of unsavoury characters in EG who would be happy to vandalise the place

Which is a real shame...

... and you have to buy a platform ticket in order to visit shops/café etc.

Stew998 · 29 Jul 2019

PUFFINGBILLY said:
Given the modesty & charm of other local heritage railways in the area & despite their challenges I have no confidence whatsoever that the BBR will survive or is worth saving.
Off to the Swanage Railway (another absolute charmer) come September, prefer the 3 hour trip than the 1 hour to the BBR.

I am surprised that anybody familiar with the Bluebell could question its charm. Horsted Keynes is something of a time capsule of a country junction in the 1920s or 30s. Its use in any number of films, period dramas and tv shows is testament to that. Kingscote is certainly charming if you want the feel of a station during the "sulky service" of the 1950s. The fact that you can't park there is part of it's charm.

The Bluebell's collection of vintage engines and carriages must be second to none outside of the NRM (and you can travel on them). Admittedly they're not all in steam/service but measures have been taken to store them undercover and display some others. The carriage and wagon works turn out some simply exquisite restorations including pre-grouping stock.

It's a victim of its own success in some ways and not perfect by any means. It is however unique and I don't recognise the railway I know from some of the comments in this thread.

I'm not closely involved so I cannot comment on rumours of internal bickering but that's in the nature of groups of enthusiasts where individuals will have strong but not completely aligned opinions!

ainsworth74 said:
I must admit I find it staggering that they've not timed their departures and arrivals at East Grinstead to connect nicely to National Rail services thereby shooting themselves in the foot and surely wasting the promise of this connection!

It's one thing if they'd had their HQ and all the sorts of interesting things like workshops, cafes or shops there to occupy passengers waiting for a train but as I recall it's little more than a platform and ticket office/cabin.

Completely agree, it does sound like they're shooting themselves in the foot on this one.

Peter Mugridge · 29 Jul 2019

ainsworth74 said:
I must admit I find it staggering that they've not timed their departures and arrivals at East Grinstead to connect nicely to National Rail services thereby shooting themselves in the foot and surely wasting the promise of this connection!

It's one thing if they'd had their HQ and all the sorts of interesting things like workshops, cafes or shops there to occupy passengers waiting for a train but as I recall it's little more than a platform and ticket office/cabin.

How much work would be involved in amending or creating a passing loop to allow the service to be hourly instead of every 75 minutes? If it was hourly it would be very easy to tie the timetable in to provide a proper connection both ways at East Grinstead.

Belperpete · 30 Jul 2019

Another preserved railway that I know brought in a "professional manager" with equally disastrous results. Unfortunately those on the controlling board often tend to be corporate types, who see the railway as a large business that needs to be properly managed, which it does, so they bring in a manager with a good track record of successfully running similar-sized businesses. Especially if the company is running at a loss, they may concentrate on getting a manager who can solve that, and forget that it takes a special skill set to manage a largely volunteer workforce. Putting out lots of corporate gobbledygook to volunteers is a sign that a manager doesn't understand who he is dealing with. Communications have to be understandable by the people they are aimed at, otherwise it is not communicating. In most businesses, the senior executives are shielded from the workforce by many layers of management who can translate their corporate speak into something meaningful to the workforce, whereas most preserved railways have a much flatter structure, with the top manager interacting directly with the workforce/volunteers.

The only really useful thing I ever learnt from all the various management training courses I was sent on was that it is very hard to motivate people, but what you can do very easily if you are not careful is to demotivate them.

Belperpete · 30 Jul 2019

Stew998 said:
So a loss of £220k in and of itself is certainly not unusual or a cause for undue concern.

I fully understand that a preserved railway is unlikely to be commercially self-supporting (although there are some that are), and will be dependent on unpaid volunteer labour, and on the supporting society to fund infrastructure improvements and even ongoing maintenance costs. However, I am concerned that even with such support, some lines still regularly run at a loss. Such a situation is surely not sustainable in the long term.

I do think that the Bluebell does need to look at its overhead costs. Providing undercover accommodation for rolling stock is a good long-term investment in reducing maintenance costs, but only if the stock being stored is actually going to be used in revenue earning service. I agree with the previous comments that the Bluebell does probably need to have a hard look at all the out of service locos, and decide which are actually going to be useful. Likewise I think it needs to consider the catering services at all its stations - I find it difficult to believe that they are all profitable. I doubt that many members would be happy about their subscriptions being used to subsidise the cost of sandwiches or cups of tea.

Bluebell Railway reports a loss of £220,000

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