SDO failure at Blackfriars?

Bletchleyite · 27 Jul 2019

So yesterday evening I was on a train into Blackfriars (won't give the time so as not to get anyone in trouble) on which (at least half of[1]) the doors failed to release, however the staff thought they had (based on an announcement the driver made before disappearing), and the driver seemed to have disappeared. So a number of egresses got pulled as a result.

How might this have happened? Can an SDO failure lead to the driver thinking the doors were released when they were not?

(As an aside I question the sense in the passcom being behind glass on 700s - this would have been a good time to use it but having to break the glass is a real dissuader)

[1] I got to a door which had had the egress pulled before getting to one that had been correctly released, this was about half way down the train.

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ComUtoR · 27 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Can an SDO failure lead to the driver thinking the doors were released when they were not?

Not really.

(As an aside I question the sense in the passcom being behind glass on 700s - this would have been a good time to use it but having to break the glass is a real dissuader)

The passcom glass is etched and will snap pretty easily. It doesn't shatter and break like the egress covers (they are a nasty and sharp plastic)

Which platform was it ?

Bletchleyite · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
The passcom glass is etched and will snap pretty easily. It doesn't shatter and break like the egress covers (they are a nasty and sharp plastic)

Which platform was it ?

It was a terminating service in 3. It was particularly concerning as I had a tight connection onto the Peterborough from 2 (which I did make but only just) to get to St P for my intended train at Euston.

I did use the passcom (it just felt wrong with it being a break-glass and I was dissuaded until I was *really* sure there was an issue - it did indeed break as you described) - however there was no answer, so I think the driver had left the unit by then having made the "all change" announcement. I then walked down the unit (several coaches) until I got to a door that had been egressed.

ComUtoR · 27 Jul 2019

Terminating services in platform 3 don't use the SDO system. It is manually done by the Driver. Sounds like they pressed the wrong button. (or didn't press it)

The glass is easily replaced, I wouldn't worry about it. It's actually a decent design as there is no mess and no broken glass everywhere. I have no idea why they keep putting this stuff behind glass or plastic covers. Seems more hassle that its worth.

Cheers for the edit btw.

Bletchleyite · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
Terminating services in platform 3 don't use the SDO system. It is manually done by the Driver. Sounds like they pressed the wrong button. (or didn't press it)

The glass is easily replaced, I wouldn't worry about it. It's actually a decent design as there is no mess and no broken glass everywhere. I have no idea why they keep putting this stuff behind glass or plastic covers. Seems more hassle that its worth.

Fair enough, cheers, just an error then I guess, easily done. No great issue caused other than for whoever was locking the unit up having to reset a load of egresses and report the "glass" for replacement. Just wondered how it happened.

Need2 · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
Terminating services in platform 3 don't use the SDO system. It is manually done by the Driver. Sounds like they pressed the wrong button. (or didn't press it)

There is a 'known problem' in the bay of platform 3.
You have to give a door release as normal > Press FASDO soft key button > Press Confirm FASDO soft key > press door release again and then the doors should open.
The problem is sometimes (and no one seems to know why) a release is only given to the 1st and last set of doors.The driver then hears the doors behind the cab open and see's passengers walk passed his window and thinks all is good so takes his key off and gets out!
Once it's happened to you as a driver, you always double check the hmi to make sure all the doors have opened before keying off, can be embarrassing!

bionic · 27 Jul 2019

The stupidest thing about the 700 doors is needing to have a valid PIS code in for the doors to open. Especially stupid when the diagram either has no PIS code or the wrong one on it. There was a time when half the fleet was running about with "check station screens" on the front due to PIS code issues. This is what shows when you use a get me home code. No info to the punters but at least the doors open.

ComUtoR · 27 Jul 2019

Need2 said:
There is a 'known problem' in the bay of platform 3.
You have to give a door release as normal > Press FASDO soft key button > Press Confirm FASDO soft key and then the doors should open.

You have to do a second release.

Need2 · 27 Jul 2019

bionic said:
The stupidest thing about the 700 doors is needing to have a valid PIS code in for the doors to open.

It's infuriating yes but, a very good safety feature when you think about it. The 'train' will not let you just open the doors without making you 'think' about it first (ie fasdo, masdo)

Need2 · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
You have to do a second release.

Yep, missed that bit :oops:

I've now edited the previous post to rectify my error!

Bletchleyite · 27 Jul 2019

Cheers all, sounds like this was the explanation - a curious "wrong side"[1] fault.

[1] Not *really* wrong side as the doors being closed is the safest situation, but wrong side in the sense that the driver can release, get out, walk off and have no idea of a problem.

ComUtoR · 27 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
but wrong side in the sense that the driver can release, get out, walk off and have no idea of a problem.

It shouldn't happen and is down to Driver error. When you release the doors there is a visible indication that they have been released, tbh, its hard to miss. Mistakes happen and the system is a little S"!"££$ but Platform 3 at Blackfriars has a very specific method for opening the doors (as posted above) Maybe the heat got to the Driver and their concentration level dropped a bit. Or they were in a rush, or whatever. It happens. Not sure I can blame the SDO in any way.

aleggatta · 27 Jul 2019

Out of curiosity, do the special arrangements apply to platform 4 also? i.e. a bay platform issue, or just 3? is there a specific reason for this issue (like a bad beacon or something)? Sorry if I've misread a previous post.

ComUtoR · 27 Jul 2019

4 and 3.

The reason is because they are not stopping at the correct place. They should stop where the beacons were installed and there should be an RLU mark. It was decided to leave RLUs stopping at the buffers and just use the FASDO override function. I don't drive FLUs so I couldn't tell you what happens with them. They could just move the beacons/change the stopping point and the FASDO will work correctly.

This is what I've been told.

aleggatta · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
4 and 3.

The reason is because they are not stopping at the correct place. They should stop where the beacons were installed and there should be an RLU mark. It was decided to leave RLUs stopping at the buffers and just use the FASDO override function. I don't drive FLUs so I couldn't tell you what happens with them. They could just move the beacons/change the stopping point and the FASDO will work correctly.

This is what I've been told.

I'm surprised they haven't looked at simply fitting another beacon further down the platform (that would only ever be readable by RLU's) unless the SDO system is more complex than that...

bionic · 27 Jul 2019

Need2 said:
It's infuriating yes but, a very good safety feature when you think about it. The 'train' will not let you just open the doors without making you 'think' about it first (ie fasdo, masdo)

The PIS thing would be a good safety feature if it prevented wrong side door releases. Sadly it doesn't. Opportunity missed there.

westcoaster · 27 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
4 and 3.

The reason is because they are not stopping at the correct place. They should stop where the beacons were installed and there should be an RLU mark. It was decided to leave RLUs stopping at the buffers and just use the FASDO override function. I don't drive FLUs so I couldn't tell you what happens with them. They could just move the beacons/change the stopping point and the FASDO will work correctly.

This is what I've been told.

Happens on FLU's aswell.

Surreytraveller · 27 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Cheers all, sounds like this was the explanation - a curious "wrong side"[1] fault.

[1] Not *really* wrong side as the doors being closed is the safest situation, but wrong side in the sense that the driver can release, get out, walk off and have no idea of a problem.

To be pedantic, its a 'right side' fault. If the doors don't open when they should - that's a right side failure (on the side of safety). A wrong side fault would be when the doors open when there's no platform

Bletchleyite · 28 Jul 2019

Surreytraveller said:
To be pedantic, its a 'right side' fault. If the doors don't open when they should - that's a right side failure (on the side of safety). A wrong side fault would be when the doors open when there's no platform

That's why I put it in quotes. It's wrong side in the sense that it caused some issue (passcoms and egresses, primarily) and the driver was for whatever reason not aware of the issue (possibly due to a simple error as @ComUtoR suggests), but I agree (and did say in my post) that it's right side so far as safety goes as closed doors are safer than incorrectly open ones.

Surreytraveller · 28 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's why I put it in quotes. It's wrong side in the sense that it caused some issue (passcoms and egresses, primarily) and the driver was for whatever reason not aware of the issue (possibly due to a simple error as @ComUtoR suggests), but I agree (and did say in my post) that it's right side so far as safety goes as closed doors are safer than incorrectly open ones.

Fair enough. Its just when someone even hints at a wrong side failure, things get taken out of service and signed out of use while its investigated, as it means something safety critical designed to fail safe has failed in a dangerous condition!

George109 · 29 Jul 2019

does the train have to be taken out of service if the glass is broken behind the emergency door release and/or passcom?

ComUtoR · 29 Jul 2019

George109 said:
does the train have to be taken out of service if the glass is broken behind the emergency door release and/or passcom?

Not for the Passcom. The Egress is a totally different story. They used to be taken out of service but not so many are broken it would decimate the fleet.

Crossover · 29 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
Terminating services in platform 3 don't use the SDO system. It is manually done by the Driver. Sounds like they pressed the wrong button. (or didn't press it)

The glass is easily replaced, I wouldn't worry about it. It's actually a decent design as there is no mess and no broken glass everywhere. I have no idea why they keep putting this stuff behind glass or plastic covers. Seems more hassle that its worth.

Cheers for the edit btw.

Up here in the north, the 185's don't have the passcom behind glass and I have seen myself them being accidentally leant against and activated when people are crowded in near the doors (as is a common problem on them!)

bengley · 30 Jul 2019

The driver can replace passcom glass themselves on 700s (indeed I did it a few times when I was a Thameslink driver)

There's a small bubble wrapped pocket of spare glasses behind the flap and it's as simple as just unscrewing a thumbscrew to replace it.

Saperstein · 30 Jul 2019

Crossover said:
Up here in the north, the 185's don't have the passcom behind glass and I have seen myself them being accidentally leant against and activated when people are crowded in near the doors (as is a common problem on them!)

Noticed on Saturday that the 195s do and been meaning to post about it, it says “Push button to stop train”.

I’m surprised it just stops the train on such a modern unit. I thought it was just notify the driver stuff these days.

Anyway talking about passcom covers I think Southern 313s are the worst, you have to pull away at some sort of plastic cover like a ring pull before getting to the communication cord.

Saperstein.

Bletchleyite · 30 Jul 2019

195s seem to have the German style setup - green passcom, red stop.

Need2 · 30 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
The reason is because they are not stopping at the correct place

I don't think this can be entirely correct.
Why does it only give a release to the first and last coach?
If you have a problem anywhere else in the core or you miss your stop mark then a simple FASDO overide (as mentioned in post 6 above) always opens all of the doors.
This seems to be an oddity that only effects p3 and p4 at BFR :?:

ComUtoR · 30 Jul 2019

Need2 said:
Why does it only give a release to the first and last coach?

I've never had it open the first and last only. FASDO overide has always popped all the doors for me.

This seems to be an oddity that only effects p3 and p4 at BFR

There could be a safety feature. When they first came out the 700s would always default to the front 4 sets of doors. This went wrong many times; including issues in the sidings. They changed it to the current system where you can manually release the MSDO function and select which doors you can release. There may be a software change to release front/rear. However, that would potentially be unsafe because you could release when stopped short. What you would need to (pause for effect) do; would be to check the HMI and see if what the number in the door release states.

There is also an issue with other traction where you can press the release buttons but the signal doesn't quite make it round the unit and you don't release all doors or you don't get interlock because there is a single door left open. This is resolved by ensuring you press and hold the buttons each time.

It could just be a fault. I'd report it if it happened to me.

I'll ask about but your the first person I've heard it happening to. 700s still have various foibles so it could be anything. I think I'm in the bays tomorrow so I will have a quick play too.

Need2 · 30 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
I've never had it open the first and last only. FASDO overide has always popped all the doors for me.

Definitely has happened to me and others as well.
I've known a few drivers key off, get out to change ends and on there walk to the other end see the smiling faces of 'trapped' passengers!
In fact I was talking to a platform staff on Sunday and was told it had happened 5 times that day.
You must be the lucky one!

ComUtoR · 30 Jul 2019

Make sure you report it each time. I must admit that fleet have been pretty good and they have been sending out software updates. The more that get reported, the more they can fault find and investigate.

Everyone is still learning with these units. They are very software based and the software is 'not great'

If I get one, I''l let you know.

SDO failure at Blackfriars?

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