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Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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HamworthyGoods

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Do you know what the key clearance issues are? Presumably NR will be very slow to act...

Slow lines between Basingstoke and Waterloo, it’s quite a compliance issue - 442s in some cases are less ‘foul’ than existing stock but as they are ‘new’ trains they must be completely compliant so until that is resolved NR require 2 drivers on each service to reduce the risk of wrong routing. That isn’t sustainable other than the limited peak workings currently.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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I agree, it would've been so much easier to just buy new trains. The 442s are around 30 years old - no wonder the door safety issue has been around for so long now...

No safety issues with the doors that was resolved long ago. It’s simply route clearance which would affect any new train introduced on the South Western Mainline.
 

samuelmorris

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I'm somewhat confused about the concept of grandfather rights for gauging. Surely this isn't something like environmental emissions compliance, they're either within a safety margin or they aren't?
 

cjmillsnun

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I agree, it would've been so much easier to just buy new trains. The 442s are around 30 years old - no wonder the door safety issue has been around for so long now...
The door issues were a result of the DOO conversion carried out when the units moved to the Brighton Main Line. They were not a problem when previously in service with SWT and NSE on the SWML and Portsmouth Direct.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I'm somewhat confused about the concept of grandfather rights for gauging. Surely this isn't something like environmental emissions compliance, they're either within a safety margin or they aren't?

Stock already in traffic complies with the standards set when it was introduced, new stock (as which the 442s are classed) have to require with the latest standard. In many cases we are talking an odd millimetre or two.
 

cjmillsnun

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I'm somewhat confused about the concept of grandfather rights for gauging. Surely this isn't something like environmental emissions compliance, they're either within a safety margin or they aren't?

If a unit has been previously cleared to run on a route, then it can continue to do so. To revoke the right to run would lead to chaos for passengers as there would be no units to run on the West of England Main line, and a number of units on the SWML would not be able to run.

The issue with the 442s and why they are treated as a new unit is that they have had modifications with respect to the ride height so they aren't as they were when they were last used down this way.
 

samuelmorris

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If a unit has been previously cleared to run on a route, then it can continue to do so. To revoke the right to run would lead to chaos for passengers as there would be no units to run on the West of England Main line, and a number of units on the SWML would not be able to run.

The issue with the 442s and why they are treated as a new unit is that they have had modifications with respect to the ride height so they aren't as they were when they were last used down this way.
I understand that, but when it comes to 'does it fit on the line' I find it hard to believe you can get a situation where grandfather rights would even be relevant. Is it simply that a safety margin is set and all units exceed the safety margin but new stock is no longer allowed to and thus must be narrower?
 

The Ham

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Stock already in traffic complies with the standards set when it was introduced, new stock (as which the 442s are classed) have to require with the latest standard. In many cases we are talking an odd millimetre or two.

This sorry of thing reminds me of a project which I was involved in where a construction site was at risk of having asbestos, using was undertaken during the early stages and low levels were found. However only because the testing has got better and so it detects smaller quantities.

Anyone got a large hammer and a list of the locations out of gauge?!?
 

Thumper1127

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Is it that work has been identified that needs to take place before route clearance – such as trimming a few mm off of platform faces? Or is it that they have not been proven to be compliant?

If the latter, the following may sound a silly idea but it has worked in the past:

I recall the route clearance for either the class 155’s or 158’s at Portsmouth and Southsea low level. The “high-tech” solution/test was to attach blocks of polystyrene to an otherwise compliant vehicle (from the RTC Derby I think) to emulate the extremes (width, height etc.) of the vehicle seeking clearance. The blocks may have been painted with something or have something on them that would rub off in the event of an issue. The vehicle was propelled into the platform at low speed and observations were made – damage to the polystyrene, marks on the platform edge etc. So if this is the issue, why not do same with a 23M vehicle (444) and flush out any issues? Not all solutions have to be high-tech! But my guess is that the issues go beyond the train/platform interface. Does anyone have any inside knowledge as to what the precise issues are, and where, together with any remedies required?

Also, re the three or so instances of COA at Earlsfield, is this the only location that this has happened? Have tests been done on the PDL? For some time there were Q paths during the day for a Fratton – Guildford – Petersfield – Guildford – Fratton working but I never saw them actually run. Were these for crew training?
 

pigs bay

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Can somebody please explain why, that when the 442's were brand new they didn't take this long to be commissioned and put into service, and they never had any clearance issues then so why are they being troubled by them now???
 

pompeyfan

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Can somebody please explain why, that when the 442's were brand new they didn't take this long to be commissioned and put into service, and they never had any clearance issues then so why are they being troubled by them now???

See HamworthyGoods recent posts. Effectively NR have reduced the gauge envelope and because they are being treated as new trains they are fouling the new gauge requirements.
 

pompeyfan

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Probably never if they can get away with it, like many infrastructure problems on the SWD.

But surely the size of TINs landings on NR desk encourages them to fix it? Unless NR are able to pass the TIN straight back?
 

Thumper1127

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But surely the size of TINs landings on NR desk encourages them to fix it? Unless NR are able to pass the TIN straight back?

This is where you need the Andrew Haines of the world to step in. This needs to hit his desk, he'd bash some heads together to get a resolution.
 

Monty

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But surely the size of TINs landings on NR desk encourages them to fix it? Unless NR are able to pass the TIN straight back?

TINs are a bit of a joke tbh as I don't think money ever changes hands.. I was once told a story at the end of each year when they count up all the TINs the amount owed to the TOC and NR is exactly the same..
 

bb21

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TINs are a bit of a joke tbh as I don't think money ever changes hands.. I was once told a story at the end of each year when they count up all the TINs the amount owed to the TOC and NR is exactly the same..
Whoever told you that must have been on a wind-up. :lol:
 

Monty

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Whoever told you that must have been on a wind-up. :lol:

Probably right, though I'd believe it since its the railway. Still a bit of a joke though, far too much time is wasted trying to attribute blame rather than just running the service.
 

Lockwood

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But... Management speak!

"you can see from all the work this attribution team has done that WE are doing a good service... It's the other parties that are stopping us!"
 

hwl

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Makes you wonder how much longer NR will tolerate it and actually fix the root issue.
But what if the issue is that the 442s don't comply with infrastructure requirements? Fixing the root cause could mean Angel spending even more or hoping the retraction improves things and are playing a waiting game - this may well be why the auxilliary power supplies that were originally going to be left as is now being replaced with new.
NR / GTR had bucket loads of similar issues with the 442s.

The only real infrastructure side solution is to replace the existing traditional impedance bonds and track circuit equipment with audio frequency ones over the surrounding area.
 

D6975

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TINs are a bit of a joke tbh as I don't think money ever changes hands.. I was once told a story at the end of each year when they count up all the TINs the amount owed to the TOC and NR is exactly the same..

Sounds like they've been taking financial advice from the bloke who looks after Starbuck's doings. ;)
 

mchd2000

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Does anyone have any update as to when some more 442 diagrams may start to appear? Particularly interested in when they will start on the Direct
 

TEW

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Does anyone have any update as to when some more 442 diagrams may start to appear? Particularly interested in when they will start on the Direct
The latest update I heard suggested not soon.
 

Thumper1127

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There's been no COA at Earlsfield for a week now. Coincidence and good luck or has the issue been resolved? Anyone know?
 

theironroad

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I thought the issue was fixed. Why are the 442s suffering further delays
Afaik, the introduction of further 442s has nothing to do with the COAs that have occurred at earlsfield.

There are a number of restrictions still imposed by NR related to gauging that has resulted in NR requiring 442s in passenger service to have 2 drivers. this isn't really sustainable especially with peak summer annual leave periods.
 
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