Arrested for what? Attempting to buy a ticket from the guard and not from the TVM??
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Role of Conductor and Revenue Protection Officers
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Arrested for what? Attempting to buy a ticket from the guard and not from the TVM??
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Killingworth
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Thank you, there remains a reluctance for some to accept that the railway would run a lot better if more tried to use the facilities available to pay the correct fare. The lost revenue is significant.
That was really brought home to me recently when I saw a group of about 20 clearly regular walkers, all of mature years, being handed a pack of Promise to Pay tickets. I am certain they'd all have had debit or credit cards and would have been able to pay. The guard didn't get to them. They travelled free, as I'm sure the leader probably expected.
NoOnesFool
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I am passionate about keeping cash as an option to pay for services/products. Cash can never fail. I am sad that many TVMs are card only.
The whole promise to pay system is open to abuse I feel. Although I appreciate that it still allows a kind of way to pay for cash purchasers, I feel a TVM which accepts cash would ultimately be the one stop solution and then, anyone who boards without a ticket should have an RPO come down hard on them. I do feel that a full range of tickets, including Ranger tickets should be available from a TVM. It's 2019, there's the technology out there for a TVM to do most of the things a ticket office can.
An RPO can then wipe the floor with anyone without a ticket. Guards can sell tickets but warn that passengers should buy before boarding. The pay when challenged brigade amount to a significant percentage of fare evaders.
The whole promise to pay system is open to abuse I feel. Although I appreciate that it still allows a kind of way to pay for cash purchasers, I feel a TVM which accepts cash would ultimately be the one stop solution and then, anyone who boards without a ticket should have an RPO come down hard on them. I do feel that a full range of tickets, including Ranger tickets should be available from a TVM. It's 2019, there's the technology out there for a TVM to do most of the things a ticket office can.
An RPO can then wipe the floor with anyone without a ticket. Guards can sell tickets but warn that passengers should buy before boarding. The pay when challenged brigade amount to a significant percentage of fare evaders.
Killingworth
Established Member
Any vending machines in remote areas are vulnerable to beak ins. The criminal fraternity blow up or ram raid shops to steal bank ATMs. Parking meters that accept cash are becoming rare and payments can sometimes only be made by phone.
The cost of collecting cash from machines on a regular basis is quite high.
I've seen older parking machines ripped out of the ground or sawn off with angle grinders to get at the cash. The cost of repairs and replacements far outweighs the income many would receive.
I'm afraid the days when everything was paid for with cash are long gone, their days being numbered from the time wages were paid direct into the bank and the arrival of cash cards, leading onto to debit and credit cards, th en Internet payments. Payments made by electronic means are transferred very quickly at low cost. Consequently bank, building society and post office branches have closed in their thousands in recent years.
The tide is very unlikely to turn the other way. Cash was seen by the banks as an expensive thing to have around as long ago as the 1970s. Reduction in the use of cash has been a massive priority ever since.
Younger people are growing up with no knowledge of a society where cash was the main method of payment. (They've never used a cheque book either.)
When I travel on trains I note how many offer tickets or phones for inspection. On some journeys at least half are now proffering a smartphone. That percentage is not going to go back to buying paper tickets from a machine at all, let alone for cash.
RPI
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In my area (the Westcountry) the majority of TVM'S take cash and cards with one or two exceptions, it's a bit less of a risk having cash in them now as very few people pay with cash so the machines hardly have any in them, when emptied some contain literally just a couple of quid but in other areas I totally understand why they have card only machines because of the risk of a break in, in those areas more people I expect pay with cash too.
Personally I think where you have a card only TVM there should also be a PERTIS machine, they're a lot less prone to a break in as the prospect of breaking into a machine to rob 20 squids worth of 5p coins isn't that attractive but at least with PERTIS you'd be getting something, it's surprising with the few PERTIS machines left how many people will actually put in a couple of quid!
Mountain Man
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For a short period. Once people realise the issue is being taken seriously and punishment severe, the issue would soon go away.
Its short term pain for long term benefit
Intermodal
Established Member
Ah yes, one of the lesser known Human Rights, the one to buy a ticket from a guard if the TVM doesn't sell it.
How else is one to acquire a ticket, if the TVM doesn't vend the required one?
Yes, lots of stations remain unbarriered, for all the good reasons you point out. However, the vast majority of journeys will involve at least one barriered station, was my point.
All the more reason to do more about it.
Fantastic. Finally someone with some common sense. More of this please, a lot more.
I asked a Southeastern revenue inspector about this today and he said that the general rule of thumb is that if there is no ticket office or it's closed then passengers can board the train without a ticket on the proviso that they buy one at the earliest opportunity and ideally they should go straight to the conductor when they board the train and ask to buy a ticket although he acknowledged that in some situations that might not be practical, long train, laden with luggage or a buggy and of course on DOO trains there is no conductor anyway . On the other hand somebody walking past a fully open for business ticket office and boarding the train without a ticket renders themselves liable to a penalty fare.
There is no requirement to do so and people cannot be penalised for not doing so.
DOO refers to the operation of the train; there are loads of trains which are DOO but have staff inspecting/selling tickets (ie. TTI, OBS and OBM roles on TOCs such as Scotrail, GTR, Southeastern; all these roles could reasonably be referred to as "conductors" though that isn't the official job title), equally there are trains which have non-commercial Guards who are absolutely not "conductors" and are unable to issue tickets (e.g. on SWR)
MrEd
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A member of Greater Anglia revenue protection staff was involved in a heated argument with a passenger about this recently, I seem to remember because the TVM at Stowmarket could not sell them a ranger/rover ticket and the ticket office there was closed. His supposed solution was ‘buy a ticket which will get you to the nearest staffed station with an open ticket office and then exchange it there for the ticket you want’. This is possibly sound advice in some situations, but what do you do if your journey doesn’t go through any staffed stations with open offices, or if you would delay your journey by getting off at Diss or wherever to exchange your ticket (some passengers actually have destinations to reach...) This is probably a good reason why Northern have established the Promise to Pay scheme (I do think that at minor stations in PF schemes the machines ought to be made to print these, or some form of permit to travel, to avoid these situations).
That sounds like a reference to the old "Condition 3" of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which was abolished a few years ago.
I don't think many TOCs actually inform Guards of changes to the NRCoT.
So far every time I've known someone buy a part ticket in such circumstances has been advised against doing that in future.
I've never heard of 'part credit' being granted for a ticket brought (but ultimately not needed) purely to exchange for a ticket that wasn't available at the origin.
But, in all honesty, the circles I've previously moved in, this particular situation would not have occurred (but I see its plausible in certain other regions).
To say it's financially tricky to account for accurately (and consistency) I would say is an understatement.
Personally, I think where I am, All of the old 'permit to travel machines' have been removed at the unmanned stations and replaced with card only TVMS (where they were replaced). This was years ago though - and I don't ever recall being informed that they have been updated to issue 'promise to pay coupons'.
As an aside, the permit to travel machined were somewhat abuse-able. 5p, for example, was acceptable to obtain the permit (fully exchangeable) as part payment for the ticket one would buy at destination / en route if made to do so. You could put in the whole fare if you wanted to.
Of course all of these 'remote' facilities are only as effective as their upkeep and maintenance regime.
I had an interesting experience in Germany recently. The train was basically a giant single car railcar holding over 100. The station was a mostly derelict East German affair with no facilities to speak of bar 3 abandoned signalboxes and a bin.
On boarding the train there was a sign on the door that basically said 'if you have a ticket, please take a seat and chill. If you need to pay, please make your way to the conductor immediately'. A small orderly queue formed at the conductor who efficiently issued tickets and then commenced a check of the remaining passengers who duly all had tickets.
Depending on the traction type you would struggle to make it work here (playing hunt the guard on anything bigger than a 153 would be a pain) but it did seem to be adhered to and removed the implied consent that 'if we don't get to you it's OK to walk out for free'.
On boarding the train there was a sign on the door that basically said 'if you have a ticket, please take a seat and chill. If you need to pay, please make your way to the conductor immediately'. A small orderly queue formed at the conductor who efficiently issued tickets and then commenced a check of the remaining passengers who duly all had tickets.
Depending on the traction type you would struggle to make it work here (playing hunt the guard on anything bigger than a 153 would be a pain) but it did seem to be adhered to and removed the implied consent that 'if we don't get to you it's OK to walk out for free'.
TrainBoy98
Member
I know a lot of the argument is that they'll be barriers and one end or another, but people avoiding paying cotton on to this. They'll jump on at station A because it's unstaffed, but instead of going to station B (which has a gate line), they stop one station short and jump off at station C, which has none.
It must skew a lot of data, but there's definately lots of non-barrier to non-barrier journeys, specifically for this reason
It must skew a lot of data, but there's definately lots of non-barrier to non-barrier journeys, specifically for this reason
You may be surprised. I have, on more than one occasion, been unable to purchase a ticket from a TVM becuase the cash I have inserted has not been accepted.
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Possibly so, due to the large % of barriered stations in the SE (but not as many as some may think). But in South Yorkshire, for example, there are no barrierd stations at all.
Killingworth
Established Member
None at Sheffield (almost 10 million passengers est 2017/18) or York (also almost 10m in 2017/18) and I can't recall a barrier at Doncaster either (almost 4m in 2017/18). So a very large number of journeys within the region pass through no barriers BUT I always have to pass through a barrier at St Pancras, Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, Huddersfield and Nottingham. That's possibly a high proportion of journeys starting in South Yorkshire.The barriers at Newcastle are often not in operation.
I never pass through a barrier at Nottingham or Piccadilly, unless you count the clueless lot at the latter as "a barrier" - I wouldn't, as it is extremely rare that they actually check the ticket I wave at them as I pass by at a brisk pace.
RPI
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If a passenger joins at a station where they could have bought a ticket but didn't buy a ticket then they can be penalised, someone gets on at a station with just a TVM and seeks me out explaining that they didn't understand the machine etc I'll probably sell a ticket, if I get to them and they're just sat there then say the same then I'm more likely to PF them. I know this argument has been done to death before!
Y Ddraig Coch
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So are you saying, if the tvm doesn't sell the ticket the passenger was looking for so gets on hoping to get it from the guard , you would PF them? So basically, they should buy a more expensive or less flexible ticket than they require are entitled to for fear of PF from someone like you?
Hmmm....
A TVM isn't an adequate substitute for a ticket office, many people will be totally bewildered by a TVM and prefer a human interaction where you tell the ticket office clerk or on board conductor where you want to go, when you're coming back etc and they find the best price for you.
Also this notion of a passenger who could not buy their ticket being required to go straight to the on board staff when they get on the train. All well and good on a two car train on a rural branch line but not so easy on a 12 car in the rush hour and how is the average passenger supposed to know which trains do or don't have on board staff?
Y Ddraig Coch
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Pretty sure that's
What I was saying?
Solent&Wessex
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The barriers at Huddersfield are often open, especially at weekends when they are hardly ever in use due to staff shortages.
The barriers at Dewsbury are very rarely used, and if they are, it's only ever Mon to Fri peak times.
The barriers at Leeds and Liverpool are about as waterproof as a tea bag and it is perfectly easy to pass through without a valid ticket. Either tailgate someone because they are slow to close or just walk out of the open assistance gate, where the completely uninterested staff member will make no attempt at all to check whether you have a valid ticket.
At Piccadilly you can avoid the barriers by walking out of the end of platform 1 or using the Fairfield Street Lift from the bridge which goes straight down to the street.
I think the general theme here is:- barriers are all well and good, untill the staff required to operate them become too expensive or disinterested or worse, too abused.
The cost benefit analysis also doesn't help the cause.
Personally as a smaller enthusiast of trains I think myself & the general population would find all of this easier if you could pay (card, cash, digital payments like Apple/Google Pay) for a ticket via any method (TVM, booking office, mobile app, PTE-cards or on the train.) at any time of day or week.
The issue shouldn't be how you purchased your ticket. It's the fact you have one at all. Penalties should only apply to those that outright refuse to purchase one if caught or challenged.
You will never have 100% of travelling passengers paying for tickets so you just have to accept that and work towards minimising the people who refuse to pay for one. Just like you never have 100% people in a shop pay for items, some stuff gets stolen and each store is likely to have a permitted (very tiny) percentage of 'loss' that is an accepted risk within the business.
I commute to/from work using a WYCA M-Card. My trips on the West Yorkshire network aren't even counted unless I tap in/out at Leeds (if I've been dropped off there or want to go into Leeds for something), or whenever the barriers in Huddersfield work. How can a ToC differentiate lost revenue from people not paying tickets, against my style of season card that doesn't have defined station start/end points?
The issue shouldn't be how you purchased your ticket. It's the fact you have one at all. Penalties should only apply to those that outright refuse to purchase one if caught or challenged.
You will never have 100% of travelling passengers paying for tickets so you just have to accept that and work towards minimising the people who refuse to pay for one. Just like you never have 100% people in a shop pay for items, some stuff gets stolen and each store is likely to have a permitted (very tiny) percentage of 'loss' that is an accepted risk within the business.
I commute to/from work using a WYCA M-Card. My trips on the West Yorkshire network aren't even counted unless I tap in/out at Leeds (if I've been dropped off there or want to go into Leeds for something), or whenever the barriers in Huddersfield work. How can a ToC differentiate lost revenue from people not paying tickets, against my style of season card that doesn't have defined station start/end points?
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