New trains for East Midlands Franchise

YorkshireBear · 30 Jul 2019

Hmm, am I missing something?

33 x 5 car trains is 165 carriages? They currently have 143 meridian carriages plus the HSTs? I thought the Corby service only took up a few sets so this does not feel like a very big increase in capacity? My sums might be wrong of course!

RailUK Forums

59CosG95 · 30 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Hmm, am I missing something?

33 x 5 car trains is 165 carriages? They currently have 143 meridian carriages plus the HSTs? I thought the Corby service only took up a few sets so this does not feel like a very big increase in capacity? My sums might be wrong of course!

The Corby services are, by and large, going over to the Class 360s. I suspect the 222s may well stay long term with EMR.

jfowkes · 30 Jul 2019

Are they aiming for more capacity particularly? Isn't MML capacity constrained by platform space at St Pancras anyway? Like, if you had longer/more trains you couldn't physically throw them at London any faster than you can now?

Mikey C · 30 Jul 2019

59CosG95 said:
The Corby services are, by and large, going over to the Class 360s. I suspect the 222s may well stay long term with EMR.

The press release mentions replacing the HSTs, slightly surprising that the DfT isn't allowing a complete renewal to remove DMUs from STP.

What's the benefit of only having 5 car trains as well? How many EMR services split?

samuelmorris · 30 Jul 2019

3.32km of Meridians -> (Assuming average 24m vehicle length) 3.96km of 80x plus 1.7km of 360s. Seems like a fair increase to me, 70% by total vehicle length.

YorkshireBear · 30 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
3.32km of Meridians -> (Assuming average 24m vehicle length) 3.96km of 80x plus 1.7km of 360s. Seems like a fair increase to me, 70% by total vehicle length.

Total length of current HSTs as well? They have 136 mk3s but not sure how many see service at same time, I am aware they have low utilization, and not sure if the 136 includes loans to LNER, although, I think that loan has ended.

tbtc · 30 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Hmm, am I missing something?

33 x 5 car trains is 165 carriages? They currently have 143 meridian carriages plus the HSTs? I thought the Corby service only took up a few sets so this does not feel like a very big increase in capacity? My sums might be wrong of course!

Beat me to it!

165 carriages to replace 143 Meridian carriages ... plus fifteen rakes of HST.. that must be around a hundred carriages? The Corby service frees up three shorter 222s, so that's in the region of 10-15 carriages?

I appreciate that these might be 26m long (so provide more seats than a five coach 222 - especially considering how poor the seating capacity is on a 222 for the length of train!), and that the HST fleet is pretty lightly used off-peak, and a revamped Thameslink timetable might provide some more optimal paths and there's going to be better platform utilisation at St P (if there's only one type of LDHS train, rather than the current mixture of four/five/seven coach 222s plus two types of HST - though obviously the Corby services will be operationally separate...).

At least buying something like an 802 (assuming that this is something like an 802) will mean that the supply line should remain open a little longer, so it's not like mistakes of the past where bespoke trains have been ordered for small batches and then it's prohibitively expensive to get new ones (e.g. TPE 185s, Virgin Voyagers) but... I'm a bit underwhelmed.

Fingers crossed they are relatively reliable out of the box, as the GWML and ECML passengers have kindly volunteered to be guinea pigs to deal with the faults of similarly designed Hitatchi stock :lol:

(could be interesting at places like Beeston though)

Failed Unit · 30 Jul 2019

Mikey C said:
The press release mentions replacing the HSTs, slightly surprising that the DfT isn't allowing a complete renewal to remove DMUs from STP.

What's the benefit of only having 5 car trains as well? How many EMR services split?

Only the Lincoln one that I can think of. Not sure if any value existing in splitting a Leicester to provide both Derby and Sheffield a more frequent service. I guess dropping off a set a Nottingham if they are continuing to Sheffield could be useful. Then we go into speculative idea such as splitting a Sheffield to serve Barnsey, Huddersfield - but I will leave it there.

Agree does seem a little odd.

ohgoditsjames · 30 Jul 2019

Doesn’t seem like enough have been ordered to replace the HST sets unless this means that they intend on keeping the “modern trains” that they’re bringing in to replace the current HST fleet (the 180’s?!?). I surely hope not.

If they intend on operating in 2x5 10 car formations could this mean the car length will be 24m instead of the current 26m for the AT300’s? If it is the standard 26m that will make the sets a fair bit longer than the 9car units operating on the ECML and GWML.

Are 260m trains even compatible with the platforms that EMR occupy at St Pancras?

samuelmorris · 30 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Total length of current HSTs as well? They have 136 mk3s but not sure how many see service at same time, I am aware they have low utilization, and not sure if the 136 includes loans to LNER, although, I think that loan has ended.

Whoops, of course, don't know how I managed to forget those. A little tricker to calculate since according to Wiki EMT have far more Mk3s than they could use with the number of power cars they have. If we take every power car as being connected to an 8-car formation then that's another 2.76km so 5.66km is replacing 6.08km of stock. I see the problem now, but don't really know if the Mk3s see such utility in practice.

urpert · 30 Jul 2019

From the press release:

“There will be an improved and more consistent ‘seven day’ catering service in both 1st and Standard Class.”

Sounds like buffets are going then. Hope they manage the trolley-in-2x5car issue better than GWR!

Jozhua · 30 Jul 2019

Are these looking to be class 802's or perhaps something a bit more bespoke?

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing some new trains rolling around in the next couple of years!

ohgoditsjames · 30 Jul 2019

Jozhua said:
Are these looking to be class 802's or perhaps something a bit more bespoke?

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing some new trains rolling around in the next couple of years!

Not sure if it actually means anything but this link shows an AT300 in the new EMR livery, looks quite smart to be fair too.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...1mmlfg6AbntDg7A6hAK8XUEoUtHCWx73SXbBZPGW_4wQI

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Hmm, am I missing something?

33 x 5 car trains is 165 carriages? They currently have 143 meridian carriages plus the HSTs? I thought the Corby service only took up a few sets so this does not feel like a very big increase in capacity? My sums might be wrong of course!

Indeed: East Midlands Trains currently have 12 HSTs (9 x 2+8, plus 3 x 2+6) and 27 Meridians (6 x 7-car, 17 x 5-car and 4 x 4-car) in use on inter-city services - A total of 39 trains. Remove say 3 sets currently used on Corby services and that's still 36 trains being replaced by 33. I'm not sure how they hope that they "will regularly be operated in 10-carriage formations" when there'll be fewer new trains than existing ones and only a limited number of services that operate with pairs of Meridians at present as far as I am aware.

samuelmorris · 30 Jul 2019

sprinterguy said:
Indeed: East Midlands Trains currently have 12 HSTs (9 x 2+8, plus 3 x 2+6) and 27 Meridians (6 x 7-car, 17 x 5-car and 4 x 4-car) in use on inter-city services - A total of 39 trains. Remove say 3 sets currently used on Corby services and that's still 36 trains being replaced by 33. I'm not sure how they hope that they "will regularly be operated in 10-carriage formations" when there's fewer new trains than existing ones and only a limited number of services that operate with pairs of Meridians at present as far as I am aware.

I imagine it'll most likely be the lesser-used 7-car services being replaced with 5-cars, in much the same way 5-car services will replace some 8-car services over here in East Anglia.

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

samuelmorris said:
I imagine it'll most likely be the lesser-used 7-car services being replaced with 5-cars, in much the same way 5-car services will replace some 8-car services over here in East Anglia.

I'd expect so but that still doesn't answer how they're planning on operating an increased number of units in pairs when there's fewer trains overall. With the numbers stated surely it will be all the current 7 and 8-car services, quiet or otherwise, being replaced by 5-car trains.

Wait and see, I guess.

ohgoditsjames · 30 Jul 2019

sprinterguy said:
I'd expect so but that still doesn't answer how they're planning on operating an increased number of units in pairs when there's fewer trains overall. With the numbers stated surely it will be all the current 7 and 8-car services, quiet or otherwise, being replaced by 5-car trains.

Wait and see, I guess.

As I said in my post above:

Unless they keep the trains that they’re intending on bringing in to replace the HST’s (180’s?!?) I hope not.

Crisps · 30 Jul 2019

Sloppy journalism from local rag The Northern Echo. They’re announcing 165 new trains, not carriages! https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/n...d-165-intercity-trains-east-midlands-railway/

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
As I said in my post above:

Unless they keep the trains that they’re intending on bringing in to replace the HST’s (180’s?!?) I hope not.

Indeed, you'd certainly hope there's no plans on retaining a non-standard, chronically unreliable microfleet alongside the new trains.

Chester1 · 30 Jul 2019

Maybe it is 10 x 9 coach and 15 x 5 coach? That would mirror previous 800 series orders. If Sheffield and Nottingham services had minimal turn around time they would need 18 rostered on. Once a sensible layover time and spares are factored in the order seems to be about the right size once Corby services are run by EMUs.

MarkyT · 30 Jul 2019

Nice livery. Interesting they appear to have chosen to retain the traditional yellow ends, unlike TPE.

duffield · 30 Jul 2019

2x5 IET sets are far inferior to 1x9 (or 1x10) in my opinion. They will always end up 'unbalanced' in terms of passenger loadings because there will be no gangway between the units. Not *so* bad at the terminals since you have a bit of time to inspect the two portions for overcrowding/booked seats but at intermediate stations there typically won't be time, so you will get passengers standing in one portion with seats free in the other. Very disappointing.

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

Chester1 said:
Maybe it is 10 x 9 coach and 15 x 5 coach? That would mirror previous 800 series orders. If Sheffield and Nottingham services had minimal turn around time they would need 18 rostered on. Once a sensible layover time and spares are factored in the order seems to be about the right size once Corby services are run by EMUs.

Unfortunately the press release specifically states "33 five-car trains, which will regularly be operated in 10-carriage formations".

Chester1 · 30 Jul 2019

sprinterguy said:
Unfortunately the press release specifically states "33 five-car trains, which will regularly be operated in 10-carriage formations".

Oops! Just read the whole thing. I am not sure why they have gone for 5 coach units because there isn't really a need for splitting and joining units. Maybe Roscos where reluctant to fund more 9 coach bi modes in case they can't find work for them in the longer term? They won't be betting on the staying on the MML until 2050.

Mikey C · 30 Jul 2019

duffield said:
2x5 IET sets are far inferior to 1x9 (or 1x10) in my opinion. They will always end up 'unbalanced' in terms of passenger loadings because there will be no gangway between the units. Not *so* bad at the terminals since you have a bit of time to inspect the two portions for overcrowding/booked seats but at intermediate stations there typically won't be time, so you will get passengers standing in one portion with seats free in the other. Very disappointing.

Yes, it's far less user friendly to the passenger

Fine for "southern region" splitting EMU services as these have flat fronts and through gangways, but less so for High Speed units

ohgoditsjames · 30 Jul 2019

In terms of performance I would imagine they’ll be adding more engines and uprating them as the 5 car 800’s only have 3 underfloor engines and I can’t imagine 6 engines will be enough to match the time tables.

43096 · 30 Jul 2019

YorkshireBear said:
Total length of current HSTs as well? They have 136 mk3s but not sure how many see service at same time, I am aware they have low utilization, and not sure if the 136 includes loans to LNER, although, I think that loan has ended.

How do you get the 136 Mark 3s? By my reckoning EMT have 9 x 8-car, 3 x 6-car and three or so spares. Total about 93 vehicles.

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Are 260m trains even compatible with the platforms that EMR occupy at St Pancras?

According to the sectional appendix, each of the platforms at St Pancras is 260 metres long. The Hitachi AT-300 vehicles are actually a little shorter than 26 metres, so a 10-car formation will fit.

Chester1 said:
Oops! Just read the whole thing. I am not sure why they have gone for 5 coach units because there isn't really a need for splitting and joining units. Maybe Roscos where reluctant to fund more 9 coach bi modes in case they can't find work for them in the longer term? They won't be betting on the staying on the MML until 2050.

I'm not surprised that we're seeing 5-car units on the Midland Mainline but I wasn't expecting a squadron fleet of the things. As you say, Midland Mainline services don't generally split en-route.

MarkyT · 30 Jul 2019

Mikey C said:
Yes, it's far less user friendly to the passenger

Fine for "southern region" splitting EMU services as these have flat fronts and through gangways, but less so for High Speed units

I think regular users will soon learn that more seats are usually available in the unit furthest from the buffer stops in London! Occasional users may be more likely to have seat reservations, so good platform signage and announcements will be essential to ensure they're on the right part of the platform.

RealTrains07 · 30 Jul 2019

Mikey C said:
The press release mentions replacing the HSTs, slightly surprising that the DfT isn't allowing a complete renewal to remove DMUs from STP.

What's the benefit of only having 5 car trains as well? How many EMR services split?

None. The HST and 222 run services dont split

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member