MML Electrification: progress updates

JamesT · 28 Jul 2019

paul1609 said:
Does anybody have any figures on how over budget and over time the GW electrification project actually is now?

The estimate from 2011 when the branches were added was completion by 2017 at a cost of £874m. It’s still not finished and we’re currently looking at £2.8bn.

RailUK Forums

paul1609 · 28 Jul 2019

JamesT said:
The estimate from 2011 when the branches were added was completion by 2017 at a cost of £874m. It’s still not finished and we’re currently looking at £2.8bn.

Does the £2.8 billion include all the bits that have been deferred and cancelled?

JamesT · 28 Jul 2019

paul1609 said:
Does the £2.8 billion include all the bits that have been deferred and cancelled?

I think so, that figure comes from report to parliament in 2017 before the scope was reduced.
Though the DfT are on the hook for additional costs they have to pay to GWR to compensate them for having to run more miles on diesel than originally planned.

themiller · 28 Jul 2019

How much of the total mentioned above is for Electrification and how much for other enhancements?

edwin_m · 28 Jul 2019

Haven't read it in detail yet but the Railway Industry Association electrification cost challenge report looks interesting.
https://www.riagb.org.uk/RIA/Newsroom/Stories/Electrification_Cost_Challenge_Report.aspx

The purpose of the report is to:

Set out the benefits of electrification for passengers and customers, and how it supports the Government’s Decarbonisation Challenge;

Summarise UK electrification strategy since 2007;

Discuss the Great Western Electrification Project (GWEP) and the reasons that it failed;

Highlight the lessons that have been learnt; and

Highlight evidence that electrification can be, and is being, delivered for between 33%-50% of the costs of some recent projects using examples from around the UK and internationally.

w1bbl3 · 28 Jul 2019

grumpyoldman01 said:
I therefore believe that the present situation should be challenged, and that full electrification of the MML is a "no-brainer" and should be the target; if GBP500k is the actual cost of wiring each single track kilometer of the MML, it should be easy to justify electrification through to Sheffield/Nottingham, and for it to have a short pay-back period. Class 222s could be retained by EMR to work the bulk of the services until electrification is completed, and perhaps more HSTs should go through a life extension programme to make them suitable for non-Meridian worked services until straight electrics can take over.

The £500k stkm figure was the figure used to justify the original business case for GWML and subsequent electrification projects. The RIA report Edwin has linked shows that actually the GWML route is coming in at £2.2m stkm and MML at £1.8m stkm, so on this basis you would get less than a km per year in maintenance contribution per nine car set.

Flying Phil · 29 Jul 2019

Whilst w1bbl3 is quite correct to say that the report shows the MML cost has been £1.8m stkm, that has been for significant upgrades in terms of 4 tracking, station alterations and other infrastructure improvements. Many of which will not be so necessary if the MML is to continue with electrification on a rolling programme - a more realistic figure is the approx £0.75m - £1m stkm used in the report.

The Ham · 29 Jul 2019

w1bbl3 said:
The £500k stkm figure was the figure used to justify the original business case for GWML and subsequent electrification projects. The RIA report Edwin has linked shows that actually the GWML route is coming in at £2.2m stkm and MML at £1.8m stkm, so on this basis you would get less than a km per year in maintenance contribution per nine car set.

Up thread someone suggested that each vehicle was £400k (so let's call that £10k/year over a 40 year lease) so a 9 coach unit would be £0.9 million you spread that cost over a 60 year period and 30 trains then that's £1.6bn.

Divide that by £2.2 million and you've got 736km, divide that by 4 (2 as an allowance for maintenance of the OHLE and 2 for double track) that gives you 184km of track you could electrify. Which is enough, as an example, to do Market Harborough to Leeds (circa 175km).

Even if the distance is more than this, there's other trains which could benefit and other savings to be brought into play (fuel, train maintenance, track wear and tear, etc.).

edwin_m · 29 Jul 2019

There's also the question of whether work any work north of Market Harborough is included in the cost, despite not being relevant to the reduced scope of the scheme. I haven't yet had a chance to read the report to see if it covers this.

jfowkes · 29 Jul 2019

I imagine the cost of having to do any work concerning London Road bridge at Leicester would add a fair bit of extra spend.

Roast Veg · 29 Jul 2019

It would be a massive spend, and potentially conflicting with proposed Leicester remodelling work to add signal overlaps and perhaps a new platform - though none of that is approved yet as far as I know.

themiller · 29 Jul 2019

Jozhua said:
I mentioned that the main issue in "regards to width" was platform edges and didn't mention anything about height

According to Network rail they think they might be able to expand GB+ to the Midland Mainline so perhaps the bridges don't generally fall too victim to this issue...

It definitely seems like they are going through and making gauge improvements as and when they carry out work on infrastructure, such as replacing signals and building new tunnels/alignments. It definitely appears to be a very gradual rate of progress, but one that freight is eager for so there is definitely the incentive to create the conditions needed for bi-level rail cars.

In regards to my retractable step theory, some sort of solution may be needed for "classic compatible" trains on the HS2 network, so that they can use the new platforms as well as existing ones. Anyone got any ideas if a bi-level bid is likely to succeed in regards to HS2 rolling stock, I saw an article on it about a year ago, but not heard anything after that.

jfowkes said:
I imagine the cost of having to do any work concerning London Road bridge at Leicester would add a fair bit of extra spend.

As can be seen from the top quote from the Double decker trains thread in Traction & Rolling Stock, London Road bridge at Leicester may not be as big an issue as has been assumed on this forum. The usual reservation applies regarding the veracity of the information!

edwin_m · 29 Jul 2019

themiller said:
As can be seen from the top quote from the Double decker trains thread in Traction & Rolling Stock, London Road bridge at Leicester may not be as big an issue as has been assumed on this forum. The usual reservation applies regarding the veracity of the information!

That link is giving me an error.

Certainly from photos posted on here somewhere (possibly further back on this thread) it didn't look as bad as some people have suggested. Certainly far less bad than Wigan Wallgate!

themiller · 29 Jul 2019

Sorry, it wasn’t a link. The post was number 98 in Double decker trains.

ohgoditsjames · 29 Jul 2019

The day I see 25kV wires in Sheffield I’ll buy everyone here a pint in the Sheffield Tap!

I’ve just turned 25 so maybe one day! :lol:

GRALISTAIR · 29 Jul 2019

I think it is a disgrace that a city the size of Sheffield has no wires

themiller · 29 Jul 2019

GRALISTAIR said:
I think it is a disgrace that a city the size of Sheffield has no wires

Only over the trams!

ohgoditsjames · 29 Jul 2019

themiller said:
Only over the trams!

Doesn’t count as they’re only 750V DC

Class 170101 · 29 Jul 2019

Roast Veg said:
It would be a massive spend, and potentially conflicting with proposed Leicester remodelling work to add signal overlaps and perhaps a new platform - though none of that is approved yet as far as I know.

themiller said:
As can be seen from the top quote from the Double decker trains thread in Traction & Rolling Stock, London Road bridge at Leicester may not be as big an issue as has been assumed on this forum. The usual reservation applies regarding the veracity of the information!

Hopefully the cost overall would be less if the did the re-modelling and the OLE all at once but I guess thats too much common sense to hope for. :'(

Bald Rick · 29 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
The day I see 25kV wires in Sheffield I’ll buy everyone here a pint in the Sheffield Tap! I’ve just turned 25 so maybe one day!

In the interests of slaking a massive Forum thirst, I might just ask a few people a couple of favours to temporarily put a low current 25kV through a short section of the tram wires. Mine’s a ‘Natural Selection’ please.

themiller · 29 Jul 2019

Bald Rick said:
In the interests of slaking a massive Forum thirst, I might just ask a few people a couple of favours to temporarily put a low current 25kV through a short section of the tram wires. Mine’s a ‘Natural Selection’ please.

I'll help. Mines a pint Drambuie shandy (for those who remember Charlie Drake)!

edwin_m · 29 Jul 2019

The tram-train wires are designed for 25kV. Does that count?

themiller · 29 Jul 2019

edwin_m said:
The tram-train wires are designed for 25kV. Does that count?

Not on the on-street sections, only on the section used only by tram-trains.

59CosG95 · 30 Jul 2019

Might have been overlooked, but a quote here from this month's edition of Modern Railways...

Mr Stainton also told the conference about getting the wires under Queen Street bridge in Cardiff, which will be successfully done using surge arrestors, bridge insulation, wire insulation and a risk-based approach to clearances. He confirmed the same measures would work for Leicester station bridge, the nastiest bit on the Midland main line.

So, yes. Not as bad as first feared. Cardiff Intersection Bridge is clearly the guinea pig here!

InTheEastMids · 30 Jul 2019

59CosG95 said:
Might have been overlooked, but a quote here from this month's edition of Modern Railways...

So, yes. Not as bad as first feared. Cardiff Intersection Bridge is clearly the guinea pig here!

Good spot, thanks for sharing. Obviously this bridge was a huge problem, what with it having a major station on top of it, but at what point do you just make this the standard approach to dealing with low height bridges? There's about 5 bridges between Glendon and Braybrooke that probably need interventions too deliver the current scope of MML electrification, could they all be done with this approach?

Mollman · 30 Jul 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
The day I see 25kV wires in Sheffield I’ll buy everyone here a pint in the Sheffield Tap! I’ve just turned 25 so maybe one day!

Sheffield should be alright, if HS2 Phase 2b goes ahead part of this involves electrifying the MML between Clay Cross and Meadowhall area (wherever the north junction will be). When that happens the rest of the MML will look underfunded indeed.

ohgoditsjames · 30 Jul 2019

Mollman said:
Sheffield should be alright, if HS2 Phase 2b goes ahead part of this involves electrifying the MML between Clay Cross and Meadowhall area (wherever the north junction will be). When that happens the rest of the MML will look underfunded indeed.

Funding for electrifying from Clay Cross to Sheffield hasn’t been committed so it could very well not happen. Bradway tunnel will be a ball ache to electrify now that Network Rail have rescinded their product acceptance of rigid bar conductors.

Even if it does happen, it’s asinine that there will be a 70+ mile gap without wires, one can only hope they decided to commit to electrification of the entire line.

WymoWanderer · 30 Jul 2019

Hitachi to supply bi-modes for MML

Hitachi wins £400 million deal for East Midlands Railway bi-mode fleet

Thirty-three five-car bi-mode trains will be built by Hitachi for East Midlands Railway.

The £400 million deal will be funded by Rock Rail, with the trains in traffic in 2022. They will replace the current High Speed Trains and Class 222s on the Midland Main Line.

Although built as five-car trains, they will regularly run in ten-car formations.

Dominic Booth, Abellio (UK) Managing Director said: “These new trains form the centrepiece of our ambitious plans for a complete replacement of all the trains on the East Midlands Railway and are a more than £600 million investment to really improve the region’s railway. They will respond to what our passengers have told us they want with more frequent services, faster journeys between the East Midlands and London, and provide more capacity with 80% more seats into London in the morning peak”.

Karen Boswell, Hitachi Rail UK MD said: “Today’s announcement will be welcomed in workshops and engineering centres across the country, thanks to our large network of UK suppliers. Our train factory in County Durham sources train parts from across the country, including a significant amount from the region where the new trains will run.”

Kettledrum · 30 Jul 2019

WymoWanderer said:
Hitachi to supply bi-modes for MML

Hitachi wins £400 million deal for East Midlands Railway bi-mode fleet

Only five cars is surely bad news

bb21 · 30 Jul 2019

Please discuss rolling stock for the new EMR franchise in its dedicated thread.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-trains-for-east-midlands-franchise.180920/

MML Electrification: progress updates

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