Bluebell Railway reports a loss of £220,000

Belperpete · 30 Jul 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I have heard similar comments from another source which I cannot confirm or deny. The Bluebell is a branch line which seems to have forgotten that it is. It was both amusing and exasperating to see they had a Branch Line Weekend recently. What the expletive deleted do they think it is? Hardly surprising that last year produced a significant loss.

Except that the Bluebell was NOT a branch line, it was part of a mainline route from London to the South coast, admittedly a secondary mainline. There are periodically calls to reopen this through route.

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Paul Hitchcock · 30 Jul 2019

Belperpete said:
I fully understand that a preserved railway is unlikely to be commercially self-supporting (although there are some that are), and will be dependent on unpaid volunteer labour, and on the supporting society to fund infrastructure improvements and even ongoing maintenance costs. However, I am concerned that even with such support, some lines still regularly run at a loss. Such a situation is surely not sustainable in the long term.

I do think that the Bluebell does need to look at its overhead costs. Providing undercover accommodation for rolling stock is a good long-term investment in reducing maintenance costs, but only if the stock being stored is actually going to be used in revenue earning service. I agree with the previous comments that the Bluebell does probably need to have a hard look at all the out of service locos, and decide which are actually going to be useful. Likewise I think it needs to consider the catering services at all its stations - I find it difficult to believe that they are all profitable. I doubt that many members would be happy about their subscriptions being used to subsidise the cost of sandwiches or cups of tea.

Run effectively, catering can be extremely profitable, more so than souvenir sales. However it can also be heavily loss making, as witness the chequered history of restaurants and restaurant chains. I tend to look askance at buffet cars more than "stationary" refreshment facilities.

Belperpete said:
Except that the Bluebell was NOT a branch line, it was part of a mainline route from London to the South coast, admittedly a secondary mainline. There are periodically calls to reopen this through route.

There are always such "calls" by the wishful of thought. Their spiritual ancestors in the C19th. thought the same but the line proved to be no more than a branchline and a particularly thinly trafficked one. I actually feel the Mid-Hants. can withstand being turned into a quasi- main line rather better than the Bluebell. (I am not associated with either)

paul1609 · 30 Jul 2019

PUFFINGBILLY said:
VERY VERY blinkered no diesel policy for years. This attitude, an extension of forever boasting about how the railway was 'the first standard gauge restored line' & how it is'100% steam' is a view held of a few influential diehards living in another universe & totally blind to the fact that the BBR is a business not their personal hobby which cannot rely on puffer-train anoraks & photographers for income.
What is beyond the control of the BBR is that the route is through pleasant enough country with views that are no different than you get by car with the exception of a tunnel & a brief aerial view of roofs as you approach East Grinstead itself which has never been a major destination of choice for holidaymakers/visitors.
I recently travelled on the nearby Kent & East Sussex Railway & was utterly charmed by its scale & varied scenery which made the BBR look so corporate (guides in lurid pink tabards for instance ). But the K&ESR has its challenges foremost trying to get volunteers in a relatively poorly populated part of the country. BBR sometimes looks as if it has too many with uniformed volunteers hanging around in groups trying to find something to do.

Thanks for the K &ESR compliments I am a volunteer and ex-trustee there.
The small town/ rural nature of the area does have some advantages in terms of volunteer recruitment in that young people regard "the railway" as an acceptable hobby whereas in more urban areas it would perhaps be regarded as "uncool". This means that we probably have a much better age profile than many of the "premier division" lines, we do for instance have many drivers who are still in their twenties. Also whilst there will always be disagreement amongst volunteers about the railways priorities and projects the relatively small volunteer pool means that we tend to know each other quite well which is very good for team building and cohesion. This is quite evident when things don't quite go to plan.

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
The Bluebell is a branch line which seems to have forgotten that it is. It was both amusing and exasperating to see they had a Branch Line Weekend recently. What the expletive deleted do they think it is?

Most established preserved railways operate large passenger and freight engines hauling trains as long as the infrastructure permits, as this attracts custom and maximises potential ticket revenue. Branch line weekends allow preserved lines to showcase their smaller locomotives that otherwise see less of the limelight, and perhaps different or shorter train formations to provide a different experience.

Regardless of what these lines were historically (And as noted above The Bluebell Railway was at least conceived as less of a branch line than, say, the West Somerset or Severn Valley railways), in their preserved forms they see a far more frequent service (Primarily between the hours of 9am and 5pm, of course) using far larger locomotives hauling much longer trains than they were ever likely to see in their commercial days.

Belperpete · 30 Jul 2019

sprinterguy said:
in their preserved forms they see a far more frequent service (Primarily between the hours of 9am and 5pm, of course) using far larger locomotives hauling much longer trains than they were ever likely to see in their commercial days.

I do agree about the unauthentic size of the trains, but I am not convinced that most operate a significantly more frequent service, as the service on many heritage lines is not particularly frequent other than at weekends and galas.

Belperpete · 30 Jul 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
the line proved to be no more than a branchline and a particularly thinly trafficked one.

The nature of the line north of Horsted Keynes was quite different to that south of there.

Paul Hitchcock · 30 Jul 2019

sprinterguy said:
Most established preserved railways operate large passenger and freight engines hauling trains as long as the infrastructure permits, as this attracts custom and maximises potential ticket revenue. Branch line weekends allow preserved lines to showcase their smaller locomotives that otherwise see less of the limelight, and perhaps different or shorter train formations to provide a different experience.

Regardless of what these lines were historically (And as noted above The Bluebell Railway was at least conceived as less of a branch line than, say, the West Somerset or Severn Valley railways), in their preserved forms they see a far more frequent service (Primarily between the hours of 9am and 5pm, of course) using far larger locomotives hauling much longer trains than they were ever likely to see in their commercial days.

Is this really so or merely wishful thought and a way of trying to justify the extra costs? Some would have that the only individual locomotives which resonate at all with "normals" are Flying Scotsman and Tornado. Where it comes to revenue it is normals rather than gricers who pay the bills.

sprinterguy · 30 Jul 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
Is this really so or merely wishful thought and a way of trying to justify the extra costs? Some would have that the only individual locomotives which resonate at all with "normals" are Flying Scotsman and Tornado. Where it comes to revenue it is normals rather than gricers who pay the bills.

It's true that most punters would be happy with any loco up front so long as it's steam, however larger locos will increase appeal for many enthusiasts (Perhaps only an incremental part of the total heritage railway market, but any increase is still an increase), and it's still the case that most established preserved lines operate locos larger than strictly necessary to ease their trains up to a leisurely 25mph, whatever the reason. Branch line train formations are not the norm on established heritage lines and so "Branch Line weekends" offer something different to the normal heritage railway experience.

Belperpete said:
I do agree about the unauthentic size of the trains, but I am not convinced that most operate a significantly more frequent service, as the service on many heritage lines is not particularly frequent other than at weekends and galas.

I was considering the long term established preserved lines as more direct comparisons with The Bluebell Railway, to illustrate that a branch line ethos or ambience isn't directly comparable to modern day preserved operation. Taking a couple of those that I'm most familiar with, the Severn Valley Railway and North Yorkshire Moors Railway both operate at least 6 trains each way, 7 days a week for 6 - 7 months of the year. The Severn Valley Railway in its pre-closure heyday only ever had five through trains a day, Monday - Saturday, spread over a longer day though bolstered by local railmotors and later diesel railcars pottering over sections of the route.

The Bluebell Railway falls slightly short of these examples in terms of either service frequency or days of operation but is still in the same ballpark, though granted that this is less the case for some of the newer or smaller scale operations where services are more limited.

PUFFINGBILLY · 30 Jul 2019

Some fascinating feed-back from my OP -ta.
To be more positive I compliment the BBR for the most efficient friendly & effective manner with which they recruit volunteers, a MASSIVE difference to the shameful dismissive manner with which I was treated when applying to another southern heritage line & a museum site. The subject of another post - mmm maybe.
At the BBR after a social coffee I was treated with others to a grand tour by special train of almost every aspect of the railway from the engine shed, offices, shop, all the stations a signal box visit & much more. At the end was a chance to discuss in a group & individually those areas that appealed & to which we were most likely suited. I promptly signed up, started off sweeping platforms & then progressed to many other areas.

Enthusiast · 30 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
How much work would be involved in amending or creating a passing loop to allow the service to be hourly instead of every 75 minutes? If it was hourly it would be very easy to tie the timetable in to provide a proper connection both ways at East Grinstead.

It's quite possible to run an hourly service with two trains on BBR under the existing arrangements. It would mean a sharper turn round at East Grinstead. Currently 20 minutes is allowed and this would have to reduce to 15 which may prove problematic occasionally as locos sometimes take on water there. Similarly the turn round time at Sheffield Park would be reduced slightly. In fact on gala days a more frequent service than that is achieved by using the passing facilities at Kingscote. I seem to recall a 40 minute frequency or thereabouts being achieved.

The point about managing a volunteer force is very pertinent. I have worked for a couple of national concerns (non-railway related) and one of them brought in a new CEO. He determined that the paid staff must henceforth work as directed anywhere in the (large) county (they'd previously been restricted to just one or two locations). He then enforced that same edict on the volunteer force which meant I may be expected to travel 70 miles each way to undertake a day's unpaid work. He lost most of his volunteers together with the contract for the service the organisation provided.

theblackwatch · 30 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
That may be down to poor connection opportunities. I don't live all that far away, in Epsom, but have a look at the timings that it would involve for me and you will see the point easily. Look at yesterday, for example. The Bluebell has an 11.45 departure from East Grinstead, but what time does the train from Victoria arrive at the main line station over the road? 11.50.

Alternatively.... 11.20 - a nice 25 minute connection, allowing a 5 min walk down to the Bluebell platform, time to buy a ticket, get a cuppa, take a phot of the kettle and find a seat. When the service from London is every 30 minutes, I don't think most people would grumble about the connection. If it were an hourly service and a '-5' or '+55', I think it would be fair enough to argue about it.

Peter Mugridge · 30 Jul 2019

theblackwatch said:
Alternatively.... 11.20 - a nice 25 minute connection, allowing a 5 min walk down to the Bluebell platform, time to buy a ticket, get a cuppa, take a phot of the kettle and find a seat. When the service from London is every 30 minutes, I don't think most people would grumble about the connection. If it were an hourly service and a '-5' or '+55', I think it would be fair enough to argue about it.

Good point - I'd forgotten it was a half hourly service!!!

DarloRich · 31 Jul 2019

PUFFINGBILLY said:
Agreed & put better than I was trying to. Bit taken aback that my views are shared, as was convinced I was alone.
Given the modesty & charm of other local heritage railways in the area & despite their challenges I have no confidence whatsoever that the BBR will survive or is worth saving.

shall we get a grip here? The Bluebell isnt going to close. They will have to think about how they address the shortfall and make some hard and unpopular decisions but that is normal in any business. The product is fundamentally sound.

Stew998 said:
I'm not closely involved so I cannot comment on rumours of internal bickering but that's in the nature of groups of enthusiasts where individuals will have strong but not completely aligned opinions!

Standard for pufffer buffer groups full of silly old sausages always bickering about unimportant things rather than working towards a common goal .

Belperpete said:
Unfortunately those on the controlling board often tend to be corporate types, who see the railway as a large business that needs to be properly managed, which it does, so they bring in a manager with a good track record of successfully running similar-sized businesses.

because that is EXACTLY what they are.

Belperpete said:
Putting out lots of corporate gobbledygook to volunteers is a sign that a manager doesn't understand who he is dealing with.

Volunteers are absolutely essential to a heritage railway. They also tend to be the biggest weakness because of a complete fear of and resistance to change and an ingrained not invented here/ under British railways mentality. I always hear that volunteers cant understand modern communications. Perhaps the volunteers need to change their mindset

PUFFINGBILLY · 31 Jul 2019

The heritage railway entertainment industry is oversubscribed, costs are skyrocketing, the country is suffering from charity & volunteer fatigue (begging for money and/or asking for free help getting tiresome), those with the time the preparedness & the funds to be able to afford to volunteer on the decrease (except maybe in the rich south). Many heritage railways have come very near closing so it's inevitable like the high street we will see change then closures.
Retired 'Corporate types' can be immensely valuable bringing their business skills but too often driven by pomposity & ego.
Reluctance to change by volunteers IS an issue, in fact a bloody-minded determination NOT to change because too many volunteers adopt the attitude that giving their own time unpaid allows them to do what they want when they want. Agree it's often an age group unable or unwilling to grasp modern-day communications & regulations. I've suffered such attitudes for 30 years managing a charity & it thwarts progress to the point of (to repeat my earlier observation) closure then amalgamation with another charity.

ainsworth74 · 31 Jul 2019

DarloRich said:
Perhaps the volunteers need to change their mindset

Which is a good way to lose them! You can carry volunteers through a change (I work in the voluntary sector and I've seen it done). But you have to tread lightly and treat their concerns and views with respect. Otherwise you'll lose their motivation and commitment. And once that happens they'll leave because whatever it is that they got from volunteering they'll feel like they don't anymore.

Volunteers are not like any other workforce. You can't just command on high (outside of things like health and safety or other statutory duties) and expect them to do it. You have got to take them with you to a degree that I can believe plenty of corporate types won't be used to.

Journeyman · 31 Jul 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Volunteers are not like any other workforce. You can't just command on high (outside of things like health and safety or other statutory duties) and expect them to do it. You have got to take them with you to a degree that I can believe plenty of corporate types won't be used to.

Managing volunteers is very different because essentially they're working for fun/personal fulfillment/sense of altruism/passion for the cause (delete as applicable) and are not dependent on the role for their existence. Paid employees will put up with untold misery and poor treatment at work, because they often can't afford to leave. Piss off a volunteer even slightly and they'll just walk, and often they'll take a hugely important skill with them.

However, some form of proper management, proper training and proper disciplinary process is needed to meet modern demands for corporate governance and safety, and if you can't get those into place, however much volunteers may hate them, you won't be able to operate.

DarloRich · 31 Jul 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Which is a good way to lose them! You can carry volunteers through a change (I work in the voluntary sector and I've seen it done). But you have to tread lightly and treat their concerns and views with respect. Otherwise you'll lose their motivation and commitment. And once that happens they'll leave because whatever it is that they got from volunteering they'll feel like they don't anymore.

Volunteers are not like any other workforce. You can't just command on high (outside of things like health and safety or other statutory duties) and expect them to do it. You have got to take them with you to a degree that I can believe plenty of corporate types won't be used to.

I honestly could not be rsed with that kind of hand holding nonsense! I would happily treat valid concerns with respect ( and actively seek them out based the on experience and technical expertise of the people involved) but wibble based on being a silly old duffer who cant cope with reality or the modern world should be treated for what it is. The world of preserved railways has changed and it cant simply be a bunch of dull blokes looking at machinery and acting out their fat controller fantasies. They are businesses with a fairly decent turnover and opportunity for profit and need to be treated as such.

If that doesn't happen the volunteers wont be needed as the business will be bankrupt!

Journeyman said:
However, some form of proper management, proper training and proper disciplinary process is needed to meet modern demands for corporate governance and safety, and if you can't get those into place, however much volunteers may hate them, you won't be able to operate.

Agreed. This is the reality many volunteers seem unable or unwilling to cope with.

ainsworth74 · 31 Jul 2019

All I can say is that I would never suggest that an organisation shouldn't change with the times and particularly when it comes to dealing with the realities of running dangerous machinery in the modern world. But outside of health and safety issues you can't rule by decree when it comes to organisations that are reliant on volunteers for a sizeable chunk of their workforce. They're doing it because they enjoy it (for whatever reason) and if you take that away then they'll stop giving their time and then your going to be going just as bankrupt as you would have been had you done nothing! That doesn't mean you don't make changes simply that you have got to have a level of buy that you don't need to worry about when everyone is an employee.

I work with and supervise volunteers. That doesn't mean we bend over backwards and never change anything. But it does mean that we're more sensitive to ensuring that they understand why we're changing things and what it means for them. If we didn't they'd all go and find something else to do! Equally on preserved railways it doesn't mean you have to always allow the "dull blokes looking at machinery and acting out their fat controller fantasies" to carry on doing so. But it does mean you have to manage the change from one way of working to the other with care otherwise those "dull blokes" will toddle off and you might be stuffed if you can't find anyone to replace them...

PUFFINGBILLY · 31 Jul 2019

Journeyman said:
However, some form of proper management, proper training and proper disciplinary process is needed to meet modern demands for corporate governance and safety, and if you can't get those into place, however much volunteers may hate them, you won't be able to operate.

Agreed & I wish more organisations that use volunteers would take this view, effectively treating them the same as if paid employees. Which leads me to the fact that if you wish to volunteer you agree to make a commitment to work as best you can, be prepared to adapt, be accountable & above all BE RELIABLE. No different from being a paid employee. Volunteering is NOT a cop-out in order to please yourself.
In a certain charity I work for & used to manage I'm happy to lose disaffected volunteers who refuse to take their role seriously & will not adapt & move with the times. Better few that do the job properly than too many who cannot be relied upon.

Simon Flack · 31 Jul 2019

On a positive note for the Bluebell https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/17805569.bluebell-railway-named-among-best-steam-railways-uk/

With regards to the OP I would think the link to Haywards heath would be very commercially worth while. for a small section of missing track there would be not 1 but 2 interconnections with the Main network. Haywards heath is a very very busy station as its on the Brighton Main Line and this could provide a very good diversionary route for passengers to get between East Grinstead & Haywards Heath when the BML is blocked. Get them selves a little 2 car DMU and revenue would stream in.

PUFFINGBILLY · 31 Jul 2019

Simon Flack said:
On a positive note for the Bluebell https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/17805569.bluebell-railway-named-among-best-steam-railways-uk/

With regards to the OP I would think the link to Haywards heath would be very commercially worth while. for a small section of missing track there would be not 1 but 2 interconnections with the Main network. Haywards heath is a very very busy station as its on the Brighton Main Line and this could provide a very good diversionary route for passengers to get between East Grinstead & Haywards Heath when the BML is blocked. Get them selves a little 2 car DMU and revenue would stream in.

There is some value in such an idea but one many years away. In view of the current fiscal crisis the priority is to make what exists more viable before embarking on a new project with all the work & cost that it would entail. I also cannot see the 'current' entrenched steam puffer brigade approving of "a little 2 car DMU", it would make too much commercial & practical sense, ditto the same on the current line. (Love period DMU's on restored lines - you always get a lovely 360 degree view). The subject has been the source of much animated debate within the BBR, which included the idea of creating a turning triangle at Horsted Keynes, a brilliant idea (not) in the middle of the system! Such are the thoughts & whimsical ideas of dreamers & enthusiasts with little understanding of business matters.

Malcmal · 31 Jul 2019

Simon Flack said:
On a positive note for the Bluebell https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/17805569.bluebell-railway-named-among-best-steam-railways-uk/

With regards to the OP I would think the link to Haywards heath would be very commercially worth while. for a small section of missing track there would be not 1 but 2 interconnections with the Main network. Haywards heath is a very very busy station as its on the Brighton Main Line and this could provide a very good diversionary route for passengers to get between East Grinstead & Haywards Heath when the BML is blocked. Get them selves a little 2 car DMU and revenue would stream in.

I love people who think with a positive attitude - like you @Simon Flack . It makes me sad to know the Fun Police will be jumping up and down on you in the next few hours saying how naive you are and generally trying to forget how unhappy their own lives clearly must be!!!

JonathanH · 31 Jul 2019

Simon Flack said:
With regards to the OP I would think the link to Haywards heath would be very commercially worth while. for a small section of missing track

They wouldn't be able to get anywhere near Haywards Heath station even if they could take over some of the Ardingly branch. Simply not room on the formation and it would cost a fortune to agree running rights with Network Rail.

Simon Flack · 1 Aug 2019

IIRC the Sainsbury's at Haywards Heath, car park was conditional allowing the Bluebell to build a platform there if it was ever needed thats why the store is at the very south end. BBR would effectively take over the shunt loop

JonathanH · 2 Aug 2019

Simon Flack said:
IIRC the Sainsbury's at Haywards Heath, car park was conditional allowing the Bluebell to build a platform there if it was ever needed thats why the store is at the very south end. BBR would effectively take over the shunt loop

I think you are referring to the Waitrose built fairly recently on the east side of the station but yes, I see that there is reserved provision for the Bluebell to go to Haywards Heath - still wouldn't be cheap and I note the concern from the freight operators.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/23986/ld-notice-haywards-heath.pdf

UP13 · 2 Aug 2019

Took my little ones to the Bluebell a few months ago. Absolutely loved it, as we have all our previous visits. The new interactive museum IMO is world class. My pre-school kids loved it! In the past we have made use of the national rail connection.

I'm disappointed to hear there are problems as I naively thought it was very well run.

Regarding the Haywards Heath branch, as romantic as it would be I think it would be financial suicide.

Journeyman · 2 Aug 2019

UP13 said:
Regarding the Haywards Heath branch, as romantic as it would be I think it would be financial suicide.

Agreed - they're not in a position to remotely contemplate it at the moment. I think a lot of people seriously underestimate how expensive major expansions are on heritage railways, and how difficult they can be to complete.

swissrailpassion · 12 Aug 2019

A lovely railway. When I visited in May I felt the timetable was less than optimal for a day out. Also the trains were surprisingly long and therefore expensive to run.
Plenty of staff around who were friendly and helpful. The restoration of HK is superb. I left with the feeling that with more interesting marketing and a slightly better timetable more people would visit.

Journeyman · 12 Aug 2019

swissrailpassion said:
Also the trains were surprisingly long and therefore expensive to run.

Were they busy enough to justify the length? If each carriage is quite full, then it's probably making good business sense, but if there's lots of empty seats, they're wasting coal lugging fresh air about.

30907 · 12 Aug 2019

swissrailpassion said:
A lovely railway. When I visited in May I felt the timetable was less than optimal for a day out. Also the trains were surprisingly long and therefore expensive to run.
Plenty of staff around who were friendly and helpful. The restoration of HK is superb. I left with the feeling that with more interesting marketing and a slightly better timetable more people would visit.

I am a new volunteer on a railway in my area. I visited the Bluebell on the first day of the summer holiday timetable (ie the 2-train service), not having been for many years.
The trains were immaculate (the restored SR set particularly), the locos (Q and BR5) authentic to the region. The BR5 is, I suspect, quite economical to operate, despite being over-large.

Loads were moderate, and could have been accommodated in shorter trains.
However, from limited experience in my own setting, loadings through the week vary enormously, depending on the number of tour groups, and "we" tend not to go for attaching and detaching coaches during the week, which is time consuming. Part of the attraction of a midweek train is not being cramped IMO.

Operating a more intensive timetable, even with shorter trains, is enormously expensive on resources, which is why many lines operate a one-train service in low season.

Bluebell Railway reports a loss of £220,000

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