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First Group: General Discussion

Alexbus12

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.....and Arriva being a far better purchase for many.

Not really in Manchester, Arriva have stripped their services down and only operate very few with no school services. Part of the reason why Arriva no longer need the lad across the road from Bolton depot
 
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Robertj21a

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Not really in Manchester, Arriva have stripped their services down and only operate very few with no school services. Part of the reason why Arriva no longer need the lad across the road from Bolton depot

Arriva is looking to sell the whole operation, not piecemeal.
 

Westonian

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May have been reported elsewhere but in yesterday's Telegraph, Boris said 'he would transform the city's (ie Manchester) transport infrastructure by introducing a London-style bus network as part of a £3.6 billion Town's Fund'. The headline - A brighter future starts with buses! Just what Andy Burnham wants?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I think the whole Potteries area is proving to be a nightmare for any bus operator. First has cut back continually and only D&G is picking up any of it. Even then, they're sensibly selective and will subsequently drop routes or frequencies if necessary.

The whole area feels very challenging to operators - glue pot traffic conditions, limited bus priority, and little or no support from the council. Also collapsing trade on local high streets so that places like Burslem and Stoke feel like ghost towns. That said, that's not to absolve First of all blame as they have been culpable of continued underinvestment but the margins were not great even in the early 2000s. A declining high street and lukewarm councils (Stoke and Staffs) really make it tricky.

There are some operations that do feel could be much more promising. I'm not familiar with First Essex but that feels like it could be better with the same sort of management that has gone into FSW or FWoE, and so whilst recording lacklustre results, may well be attractive to people.
 

Robertj21a

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The whole area feels very challenging to operators - glue pot traffic conditions, limited bus priority, and little or no support from the council. Also collapsing trade on local high streets so that places like Burslem and Stoke feel like ghost towns. That said, that's not to absolve First of all blame as they have been culpable of continued underinvestment but the margins were not great even in the early 2000s. A declining high street and lukewarm councils (Stoke and Staffs) really make it tricky.

There are some operations that do feel could be much more promising. I'm not familiar with First Essex but that feels like it could be better with the same sort of management that has gone into FSW or FWoE, and so whilst recording lacklustre results, may well be attractive to people.

Very true. I know we can be critical of First Bus but I can't think of any operator who could really make a success of Potteries. Perhaps Alex Hornby could take it on as a project and make it 'Amazing'......
 

darloscott

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Very true. I know we can be critical of First Bus but I can't think of any operator who could really make a success of Potteries. Perhaps Alex Hornby could take it on as a project and make it 'Amazing'......
I'm not local but the impression I get, sorry if I'm wrong, is that D&G have taken on numerous services and even with their lower costs can't make them pay? If so then I'd struggle to think of anyone who could make them work
 

Robertj21a

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I'm not local but the impression I get, sorry if I'm wrong, is that D&G have taken on numerous services and even with their lower costs can't make them pay? If so then I'd struggle to think of anyone who could make them work

Broadly correct.
 

DragonEast

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There are some operations that do feel could be much more promising. I'm not familiar with First Essex but that feels like it could be better with the same sort of management that has gone into FSW or FWoE, and so whilst recording lacklustre results, may well be attractive to people.

Ha. Great Wazoo. Thought Essex had been forgotten about, though I couldn't blame anyone for that! Last time I checked, their size and income was competitive with Stagecoach East, even with their much better market (students, tourists, growth in local employment, retail buoyancy and the busway/multiple P&Rs ) around Cambridge, and around half as much again as the profitable Eastern Counties. The trouble is that it's more than wiped out by their operating costs. So I'm confused by your comments about an attractive proposition. For what?

So unless there is something that I've overlooked apart from costs and income (and even last years exceptionals even if repeated annually aren't more than the Stagecoach profit of 10m on the similar income), where would you expect the management whizos to make the further cuts to make it such an attractive proposition? Or to improve the economy of Essex way beyond that of Greater Cambridge? I'd really love to hear your ideas on that one. (The half cuts at already run-down Clacton and Braintree hardly made any difference with the intensive interurban services transferred to other depots). And given that our modernised fleet is currently 14 year old vehicles being transferred from Manchester, achieve the not-too-far-off-surely fleet replacement without adding to the already too high costs? Even halving the fleet, cutting wages, and sacking half the staff has a cost doesn't it? I gather you don't think much of Unite but really would you expect them to just lie down and take it because an accountant tells them There is No Alternative? And why would the local competition want to take on the liability for staff who earn a premium to their existing staff? A 50% or higher fare rise (already more than elsewhere locally) for the Essex dumbos with more money than sense (hint: don't believe everything you watch on TV)? Attractive? Not sure it's the word I'd use. To whom (apart perhaps from the bookkeeper)? Even Essex CC are currently trying to reduce their excessively high bus subsidy budget for a Shire Council (despite everything Boris is telling them about how he is going to Save the Buses, apparently; or Jeremy, depending I suppose on your point of view)! Perhaps on second thoughts First Group could just wait for the latest promised manna from the politicians' heaven?

Personally with the choice I'd rather go for Arriva Herts and Essex, Beds and Bucks any day!!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ha. Great Wazoo. Thought Essex had been forgotten about, though I couldn't blame anyone for that! Last time I checked, their size and income was competitive with Stagecoach East, even with their much better market (students, tourists, growth in local employment, retail buoyancy and the busway/multiple P&Rs ) around Cambridge, and around half as much again as the profitable Eastern Counties. The trouble is that it's more than wiped out by their operating costs. So I'm confused by your comments about an attractive proposition. For what?

So unless there is something that I've overlooked apart from costs and income (and even last years exceptionals even if repeated annually aren't more than the Stagecoach profit of 10m on the similar income), where would you expect the management whizos to make the further cuts to make it such an attractive proposition? Or to improve the economy of Essex way beyond that of Greater Cambridge? I'd really love to hear your ideas on that one. (The half cuts at already run-down Clacton and Braintree hardly made any difference with the intensive interurban services transferred to other depots). And given that our modernised fleet is currently 14 year old vehicles being transferred from Manchester, achieve the not-too-far-off-surely fleet replacement without adding to the already too high costs? Even halving the fleet, cutting wages, and sacking half the staff has a cost doesn't it? I gather you don't think much of Unite but really would you expect them to just lie down and take it because an accountant tells them There is No Alternative? And why would the local competition want to take on the liability for staff who earn a premium to their existing staff? A 50% or higher fare rise (already more than elsewhere locally) for the Essex dumbos with more money than sense (hint: don't believe everything you watch on TV)? Attractive? Not sure it's the word I'd use. To whom (apart perhaps from the bookkeeper)? Even Essex CC are currently trying to reduce their excessively high bus subsidy budget for a Shire Council (despite everything Boris is telling them about how he is going to Save the Buses, apparently; or Jeremy, depending I suppose on your point of view)! Perhaps on second thoughts First Group could just wait for the latest promised manna from the politicians' heaven?

Personally with the choice I'd rather go for Arriva Herts and Essex, Beds and Bucks any day!!

Ah but how are those costs comprised? How can you increase revenues?

I did point out examples of how First OpCos have turned around their fortunes. Perhaps you missed that?

I have dealt with Unite in the past. They, like other trade unions, work for their members interests and that’s what you would expect them to do. What’s your experience of them?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ha. Great Wazoo. Thought Essex had been forgotten about, though I couldn't blame anyone for that! Last time I checked, their size and income was competitive with Stagecoach East, even with their much better market (students, tourists, growth in local employment, retail buoyancy and the busway/multiple P&Rs ) around Cambridge, and around half as much again as the profitable Eastern Counties. The trouble is that it's more than wiped out by their operating costs. So I'm confused by your comments about an attractive proposition. For what?

So unless there is something that I've overlooked apart from costs and income (and even last years exceptionals even if repeated annually aren't more than the Stagecoach profit of 10m on the similar income), where would you expect the management whizos to make the further cuts to make it such an attractive proposition? Or to improve the economy of Essex way beyond that of Greater Cambridge? I'd really love to hear your ideas on that one. (The half cuts at already run-down Clacton and Braintree hardly made any difference with the intensive interurban services transferred to other depots). And given that our modernised fleet is currently 14 year old vehicles being transferred from Manchester, achieve the not-too-far-off-surely fleet replacement without adding to the already too high costs? Even halving the fleet, cutting wages, and sacking half the staff has a cost doesn't it? I gather you don't think much of Unite but really would you expect them to just lie down and take it because an accountant tells them There is No Alternative? And why would the local competition want to take on the liability for staff who earn a premium to their existing staff? A 50% or higher fare rise (already more than elsewhere locally) for the Essex dumbos with more money than sense (hint: don't believe everything you watch on TV)? Attractive? Not sure it's the word I'd use. To whom (apart perhaps from the bookkeeper)? Even Essex CC are currently trying to reduce their excessively high bus subsidy budget for a Shire Council (despite everything Boris is telling them about how he is going to Save the Buses, apparently; or Jeremy, depending I suppose on your point of view)! Perhaps on second thoughts First Group could just wait for the latest promised manna from the politicians' heaven?

Personally with the choice I'd rather go for Arriva Herts and Essex, Beds and Bucks any day!!

Well Dragon, as you didn't respond, I thought I'd give you a fuller response.

If you look at the UK as a whole, the South of the country is essentially doing better than the North. That overall economic buoyancy helps bus companies (as with most other firms) and so Essex should be reasonable bus territory. It also has a reasonably supportive county council.

Hence my assertion that, not withstanding the pressures of traffic congestion and the like, the First Essex business should be doing better than it is. They have, as you say, trimmed back the fixed overhead with the closures of Clacton and Braintree and in the last accounts, the exit costs for that were still impacting the results. So what could a new owner actually do? Can they turn around an apparent basket case? Would anyone be interested? Well, it hasn't put off purchasers for the Bolton and Manchester depots.

Now, I confess I'm not close to the Essex bus market but other smaller firms are making a decent fist of things. Go Ahead haven't but really, they tried to fuse together a disparate number of businesses without really getting it right. The fleet clearly needs updating and having a load of thirsty and increasingly fragile Eclipses, Solars and Omnicities doesn't help. The fleet needs investment (with a raft of 2003-2005 Darts in situ) and it needs better marketing. Look at what First have done with FSW and FWE in terms of their university services and compare that to Essex! Capitalise on the inter-urban services that they have! Grow those services (like the X30/X40) with a focus to creating a better product as per the Bristol or Glasgow Airport services? Now part of the problem is that those developments need capital and that's limited in First but perhaps a new owner might just be able to break the cycle and NOT have to rely on aged ex Oldham cascades to replace the very worst of the fleet.

I know I'm looking at this from a distance and there will be local considerations and perhaps a lot is happening behind the scenes. However, there's some very good "best practice" about First's empire but little seems to be apparent in Essex. Perhaps it is a diamond in the rough?
 

Robertj21a

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I think Essex suffers from both First and Arriva seemingly being content to just let matters tick over, with little real effort. Markedly different from Ensignbus who dominate the Thurrock area, with quality vehicles and routes.
 

winston270twm

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I think Essex suffers from both First and Arriva seemingly being content to just let matters tick over, with little real effort. Markedly different from Ensignbus who dominate the Thurrock area, with quality vehicles and routes.

That was kind of my point re: Potteries under a different management style. I'm not that familiar with the operating area, but I'm sure there would be certain corridors / areas where growth could be achieved.
 

Robertj21a

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That was kind of my point re: Potteries under a different management style. I'm not that familiar with the operating area, but I'm sure there would be certain corridors / areas where growth could be achieved.

I agree with the theory behind that but......

I don't know Potteries in great detail but I know that First Bus had managed to consistently p*ss off their travelling public, through poor services, vehicles, staff, and fares, until the current management took over. They gave out an excellent impression of an operator who really couldn't care less, and the vehicles and staff reflected it 100%. Even though the new management has now reduced the fleet by nearly 50% I'm not sure there won't be more cuts to come.
Of course, the downturn isn't just down to First Bus poor performance, the whole area has been in decline for years and most of the 5 towns are rather quiet, dismal, places much of the time. To confirm the general decline, it needs to be recognised that Potteries has largely lost those numerous small independents that used to be around in quite sizeable numbers - if they can't make a business out of it then it's not surprising that First PLC can't either.
D&G is the only independent of any size and, coming under the Peddle wing, has carefully replaced some First services if they felt they could make them sufficiently profitable. Even then they haven't always achieved adequate returns, and services have been cut or withdrawn subsequently.
The likes of Hanley, Newcastle etc (about the only 2 places where people now go to in any numbers) do not suffer too much in the way of road congestion and delays, so that can't really be given as an excuse [whereas it can for, say, Worcester].
I think that there are simply too few potential bus passengers for anybody to make much profit. Having said that, if First Bus were to ever pull out completely then I'm sure that a D&G near-monopoly might be good for all concerned.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I agree with the theory behind that but......

I don't know Potteries in great detail but I know that First Bus had managed to consistently p*ss off their travelling public, through poor services, vehicles, staff, and fares, until the current management took over. They gave out an excellent impression of an operator who really couldn't care less, and the vehicles and staff reflected it 100%. Even though the new management has now reduced the fleet by nearly 50% I'm not sure there won't be more cuts to come.
Of course, the downturn isn't just down to First Bus poor performance, the whole area has been in decline for years and most of the 5 towns are rather quiet, dismal, places much of the time. To confirm the general decline, it needs to be recognised that Potteries has largely lost those numerous small independents that used to be around in quite sizeable numbers - if they can't make a business out of it then it's not surprising that First PLC can't either.
D&G is the only independent of any size and, coming under the Peddle wing, has carefully replaced some First services if they felt they could make them sufficiently profitable. Even then they haven't always achieved adequate returns, and services have been cut or withdrawn subsequently.
The likes of Hanley, Newcastle etc (about the only 2 places where people now go to in any numbers) do not suffer too much in the way of road congestion and delays, so that can't really be given as an excuse [whereas it can for, say, Worcester].
I think that there are simply too few potential bus passengers for anybody to make much profit. Having said that, if First Bus were to ever pull out completely then I'm sure that a D&G near-monopoly might be good for all concerned.
Don’t know about Hanley not having congestion. Coming in from Cobridge or Fenton, especially in peak, is very busy and that’s before any problems on the D road.
 

overthewater

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https://www.scotsman.com/business/firstgroup-directors-to-quit-in-wake-of-agm-spat-1-4974004

FirstGroup has announced two directors, including its longest serving board member, will step down in the latest senior changes at the firm.

The Aberdeen-headquartered transport giant said Jim Winestock, who has sat on the board for more than seven years and chairs the board safety committee, will step down with effect from 30 September. Imelda Walsh, who was appointed in 2014 and has chaired the remuneration committee, will serve as a director until the end of the current financial year “at the latest”.

The update comes after 37.3 per cent of shareholders voted against re-electing Winestock at the group’s annual general meeting (AGM), while 39.9 per cent of votes went against Walsh.

The AGM also saw chairman Wolfhart Hauser leave his role. FirstGroup has been navigating boardroom conflicts from activist investor Coast Capital Management for several months, with the US group calling for an overhaul of the company’s strategy.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/30/firstgroups-longest-serving-board-member-quits/
FirstGroup's longest-serving board member has agreed to step down in the latest chapter of the rail and bus company's spat with its largest investor. Jim Winestock, a US postal industry veteran, will retire at the end of September, the company announced on Tuesday.

The departure comes after 37pc of investors voted against his re-election at FirstGroup's annual meeting last week. FirstGroup has been under attack from its biggest shareholder, Coast Capital Management, for several weeks. It has called for sweeping changes to the boardroom and the company's strategy. Coast wants the business to focus on more profitable operations in North America and step away from Britain's railways.

FirstGroup...
 

Delenn

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Well, if Traveline data is to be believed, First Essex have lost the plot. At the moment, it looks like they've axed the 100 between Chelmsford and Basildon and not replaced it with anything. I can only assume this is a mess up, as the service runs every 15 minutes ish and are normally at least half full for the majority of the route. Of course, there is the X10, but that is excluded from all their rover tickets and very pricey, therefore is unviable for commuter use. If this turns out to be true, then I'll have to stop using the buses and find another way to get to work.
 

Man of Kent

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Well, if Traveline data is to be believed, First Essex have lost the plot. At the moment, it looks like they've axed the 100 between Chelmsford and Basildon and not replaced it with anything. I can only assume this is a mess up, as the service runs every 15 minutes ish and are normally at least half full for the majority of the route. Of course, there is the X10, but that is excluded from all their rover tickets and very pricey, therefore is unviable for commuter use. If this turns out to be true, then I'll have to stop using the buses and find another way to get to work.
Shown in the latest Notices & Proceedings as amended timetable from 1 September. Traveline (and First) would appear to have deleted the current timetable but not yet added the new one.
 

Delenn

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Shown in the latest Notices & Proceedings as amended timetable from 1 September. Traveline (and First) would appear to have deleted the current timetable but not yet added the new one.

I'm going by this: https://www.travelineeastanglia.org...tdLPxx_spTr=1&itdLPxx_operatorCodeForTTB=FESX

It would be absurd for them to just drop that part of the route. To be fair, the 100 has needed splitting for a while, as service pollution from Grays/M25 is awful. I can only assume a new service number is replacing that half.
 

Delenn

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I'm going by this: https://www.travelineeastanglia.org.uk/ea/XSLT_TTB_REQUEST?language=en&command=direct&net=set&line=05100&sup= &itdLPxx_direction=H&project=y08&outputFormat=0&itdLPxx_displayHeader=false&itdLPxx_sessionID=EFA01_39958002&lineVer=1&itdLPxx_spTr=1&itdLPxx_operatorCodeForTTB=FESX

It would be absurd for them to just drop that part of the route. To be fair, the 100 has needed splitting for a while, as service pollution from Grays/M25 is awful. I can only assume a new service number is replacing that half.
A contact has told us they are splitting the route. Sensible move, and so glad they haven't lost the plot.
 

overthewater

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How long will it take for the empty seats to be filled at the board?

Also one has to wonder how long is "Soon" When Mwanesh mentioned it 2 weeks ago, about further changes.
 

DragonEast

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I'm not so sure Potteries is such a basket case, at least following rationalisation? Certainly the good condition 2011 ex P&R vehicles were recently transferred from an Essex core interurban route to the Potteries to be replaced by the unwanted 2005 Volvos from one of the transferred Manchester depots. I'd have thought it was a pretty good indicator of which is the basket case, and it's not Potteries (or Manchester, post-transfer).
 

Robertj21a

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First Potteries has improved significantly under the 'new' management, but is still losing passengers - not necessarily to anyone else. That's why Potteries (the area) is viewed as such a difficult place to operate these days.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm not so sure Potteries is such a basket case, at least following rationalisation? Certainly the good condition 2011 ex P&R vehicles were recently transferred from an Essex core interurban route to the Potteries to be replaced by the unwanted 2005 Volvos from one of the transferred Manchester depots. I'd have thought it was a pretty good indicator of which is the basket case, and it's not Potteries (or Manchester, post-transfer).

Sorry - must’ve missed that. Have 69515-20 transferred to Potteries?
 

Volvodart

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So Firstgroup are not pulling out of rail after all - they have been awarded a long contract for the West Coast. This means they will not be able to properly reflect the value of the US business post expected disposals, unless they somehow split the US businesses off.
 

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