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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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LNW-GW Joint

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I'd seen it suggested that IETs couldn't meet the MML franchise spec because they don't have identical performance on diesel and electric. Some people were touting bi-mode Aventras as more likely. Any idea what happened there?

What makes you think the Aventra design would have been better than the AT300?
They might even have used the same MTU power pack in the design.
Hitachi has the advantage of an existing bi-mode design and production capability, and supply chain, and that is probably reflected in the price.
Bombardier would have had to set all that up from scratch.
In the past, Bombardier has benefitted many times by having run-on orders for existing EMU designs.
Hitachi is now benefitting in the same way for bi-modes.
The DfT also gets to continue its multi-supplier policy.
 
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Nym

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Anyone else noticed that they bleat on about how they build trains in the north east, but at no point state that THESE trains will be built in the north east?

Considering they’ll mostly be 10car instead of the current 4,5,7 or 10 car that the 222’s operate at and the fact that the 222’s have inefficient seating configuration per car it will be a significant improvement in terms of number of seats. The issue is they don’t seem to have ordered enough to replace HST’s that have 8 MK3’s

How can they be mostly 10 car? There just aren't enough units ordered.
 

Aictos

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Having said that I do think removing the Luton Airport Parkway stop from the slow Nottingham is a bad idea. As well as providing a useful airport link which in my experience a lot of people take advantage of, this stop means that Thameslink stations further south can access Leicester and Nottingham with one change. A journey such as Leicester to St Albans will now need two changes.

This is exactly why I’m opposed to the change as it’s not for the greater good.

While it’s good that the Corby services stop at both Luton stations, I think keeping it as it is ie calling at Luton but increased to 2tph with the slow Nottingham retaining its Luton Parkway stop would have been a good compromise.

There is no need for the Corby services to call at both Luton stations IMO.
 

modernrail

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I really can't see any reason for the 2x5 part of this order. Surely mainly 1x9 would be cheaper to manufacture (the extra cabs will be expensive in terms of extra cab equipment as well as a waste of space) cheaper to staff and better for passengers. If the units are to be mostly doubled up what am I missing?
 

59CosG95

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Anyone else noticed that they bleat on about how they build trains in the north east, but at no point state that THESE trains will be built in the north east?



How can they be mostly 10 car? There just aren't enough units ordered.
The assembly of the units at Newton Aycliffe has been mentioned in several other railway websites. The HSTs will be the only units removed from MML intercity service en bloc, while the 222s are expected to stay AFAIK. The 222s on the Corbys will, as discussed at length, be replaced by 360s.

I really can't see any reason for the 2x5 part of this order. Surely mainly 1x9 would be cheaper to manufacture (the extra cabs will be expensive in terms of extra cab equipment as well as a waste of space) cheaper to staff and better for passengers. If the units are to be mostly doubled up what am I missing?
Presumably for flexibility? If 1 5-car unit in a 10-car formation fails, the other 5-car unit might be able to haul/propel it to a position out of the way of other traffic. If a 9-car unit fails, it's buggered.
 

modernrail

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The assembly of the units at Newton Aycliffe has been mentioned in several other railway websites. The HSTs will be the only units removed from MML intercity service en bloc, while the 222s are expected to stay AFAIK. The 222s on the Corbys will, as discussed at length, be replaced by 360s.


Presumably for flexibility? If 1 5-car unit in a 10-car formation fails, the other 5-car unit might be able to haul/propel it to a position out of the way of other traffic. If a 9-car unit fails, it's buggered.

That seems like a strange trade off to me considering the disadvantges appear numerous and expensive over the life of the trains. I am as confused with this trend on other routes unless there is clear splitting going on. There must be some thought behind it but I just don't see it bearing in mind the day to day problems it causes. For instance the problem of people being caught on the wrong portion away from their seat that will happen on almost every service I suspect.

It is not like we have not been running 9/11 cars day in day out for years.
 

Railperf

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What makes you think the Aventra design would have been better than the AT300?
They might even have used the same MTU power pack in the design.
Hitachi has the advantage of an existing bi-mode design and production capability, and supply chain, and that is probably reflected in the price.
Bombardier would have had to set all that up from scratch.
In the past, Bombardier has benefitted many times by having run-on orders for existing EMU designs.
Hitachi is now benefitting in the same way for bi-modes.
The DfT also gets to continue its multi-supplier policy.
It makes sense to order a proven design, and Hitachi /MTU are coming up to 2 years of passenger service - which engine reliability issues aside - seems to be a pretty good train. And of course hopefully they might be specifying some comfier seats than GWR/LNER.
 

hexagon789

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https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitac...achi-trains-for-east-midlands-railway-2902003

According to this press release from Hitachi, 33x new trains have been ordered. Is this enough? There are 42x Intercity trains with East Midlands Trains (15x HST, 27x 222) and 21 of those have 6-8 carriages whereas these new ones will only have five.

With only thirty-three new trains ordered, I fail to see how this is going to be enough. Not only are the trains shorter, there are less of them, so I fail to see how enough of them can be coupled up! Corby is being transferred to EMUs I know, but that won’t reduce a huge amount of how many IC trains are needed.

Probably not, it's I believe exactly how many you need to operate the present timetable minus the Corbys. I bet that'll come back to bite them in the near future; hopefully there's a follow-on order option.

Considering they’ll mostly be 10car instead of the current 4,5,7 or 10 car that the 222’s operate at and the fact that the 222’s have inefficient seating configuration per car it will be a significant improvement in terms of number of seats. The issue is they don’t seem to have ordered enough to replace HST’s that have 8 MK3’s

They may be planned to run mostly as 10-car, but the fact they can be run as 5-car is asking for trouble.
 
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Off peak the service pattern is established in Abellio's presentation.

1 TPH London - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield
1 TPH London - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Nottingham
1 TPH London - Kettering - Market Harborough - Leicester - Loughborough - East Mids Parkway - Beeston - Nottingham
1 TPH London - Leicester - Loughborough - East Mids Pway - Long Eaton - Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield
2 TPH London - Luton AP - Luton - Bedford - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby.

Leicester confirmed to have 4 TPH so no off peak splitting.

Nottingham looks like the poor relation compared to Derby, why not put the Kettering stop from the Nottingham 'fast' service in the the Sheffield semi-fast instead.

Can anyone estimate what the projected journey time is for the London - Kettering- Market Harboourogh - Leicester - Nottingham?
 

InTheEastMids

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Nottingham looks like the poor relation compared to Derby, why not put the Kettering stop from the Nottingham 'fast' service in the the Sheffield semi-fast instead.

Can anyone estimate what the projected journey time is for the London - Kettering- Market Harboourogh - Leicester - Nottingham?

Well the Nottingham fasts take 1h40 with calls at East Midlands, Leicester and Harborough. This service pattern swaps the Parkway stop for Kettering, so would expect a similar journey time, minus the performance gains from the new fleet Vs the current 2+8 HST
 
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Well the Nottingham fasts take 1h40 with calls at East Midlands, Leicester and Harborough. This service pattern swaps the Parkway stop for Kettering, so would expect a similar journey time, minus the performance gains from the new fleet Vs the current 2+8 HST

A few years ago there was a push for a Nottingham in 90 minutes. Without a Kettering stop that would be achievable.
 

samuelmorris

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A few years ago there was a push for a Nottingham in 90 minutes. Without a Kettering stop that would be achievable.
As long as they don't run a single daily service each way that slows down all the other peak services around it by 5+ minutes, and have it still end up taking 95 minutes, and being cancelled 40% of the time... ;)
 

Mikey C

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Presumably for flexibility? If 1 5-car unit in a 10-car formation fails, the other 5-car unit might be able to haul/propel it to a position out of the way of other traffic. If a 9-car unit fails, it's buggered.
But that's completely the opposite of the approach taken with the 345 and 700 EMUs which are fixed full length trains, as the efficiency and capacity benefits clearly outweigh any benefits from being able to run half units
 

samuelmorris

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But that's completely the opposite of the approach taken with the 345 and 700 EMUs which are fixed full length trains, as the efficiency and capacity benefits clearly outweigh any benefits from being able to run half units
In practice, most failures with 80x series units seem to affect both units simultaneously from the anecdotes I've seen.
 

Chris172

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Would the new 5 car IET become 800s or will a Class 803 come to fruition

Glad the 360s have a home now as the desiro units are awesome trains
 

swt_passenger

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If the vehicle lengths are indeed different, 803 would be the most appropriate, but TOPS usage is utterly random so who knows.
Yes, I agree they’re unlikely to be 800 or 802, but anything between 803 and 899 might be equally possible, based on other recent choices made...
 

Nick Nation

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Thanks to LowLevel for providing the off-peak pattern. As others have said, going north from W'bro to Nottingham would require a change, going to Sheffield would require two changes. Are there any peak trains that will stop at W'bro?
 

edwin_m

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But that's completely the opposite of the approach taken with the 345 and 700 EMUs which are fixed full length trains, as the efficiency and capacity benefits clearly outweigh any benefits from being able to run half units
345 and 700 also have to take account of evacuation in long tunnels. However these new units are bi-modes and will have much higher leasing and somewhat higher operating cost than EMUs, so there is more need to reduce the fleet size and vehicle mileage.
 

43096

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The assembly of the units at Newton Aycliffe has been mentioned in several other railway websites. The HSTs will be the only units removed from MML intercity service en bloc, while the 222s are expected to stay AFAIK. The 222s on the Corbys will, as discussed at length, be replaced by 360s.
It was explicit in the franchise announcement that all trains are being replaced, so the 222s go. London services will all be either 360s or the new Hitachi units.
 

AM9

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But that's completely the opposite of the approach taken with the 345 and 700 EMUs which are fixed full length trains, as the efficiency and capacity benefits clearly outweigh any benefits from being able to run half units
The 700s and AFAIK the 345s are really two functional EMUs semi-permanently coupled and without cabs at the inner ends. The traction systems are powered separately and in the event of a failure items in those chains, e.g. pantograph, transformer, traction electronics and motors themselves, the functioning section has sufficient power to continue the run (albeit at reduced speeds) to clear the tracks. Obviously there will be some failures that disable the whole train but that can also happen with EMUs that consist of 2x4-car units.
 

Aictos

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Nottingham looks like the poor relation compared to Derby, why not put the Kettering stop from the Nottingham 'fast' service in the the Sheffield semi-fast instead.

Can anyone estimate what the projected journey time is for the London - Kettering- Market Harboourogh - Leicester - Nottingham?

Exactly but course they won’t do it and instead wreck the MML timetable and connectivity.

All that is needed is a fleet replacement that has better performance then existing fleets ie HSTs and you can get journey times improved with improved acceleration and braking.

Keep the TT as it is except maybe the Corbys running 2tph and skip the Parkway stop other then that, there really is no need to do anything to the TT.
 

samuelmorris

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Exactly but course they won’t do it and instead wreck the MML timetable and connectivity.

All that is needed is a fleet replacement that has better performance then existing fleets ie HSTs and you can get journey times improved with improved acceleration and braking.

Keep the TT as it is except maybe the Corbys running 2tph and skip the Parkway stop other then that, there really is no need to do anything to the TT.
The timetable changes are presumably required in order to reduce the size of the fleet.
 

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Chester1

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Would the new 5 car IET become 800s or will a Class 803 come to fruition

Glad the 360s have a home now as the desiro units are awesome trains

In addition to 24m coaches instead of 26m, the new fleet will have 4 diesel engines per set of 5, compared with 3 on 800s and 802s. That is a significant performance difference and should warrant designating them as a new class. 803 would make sense but who knows!

I was under the impression from what I read on Abellio's website that they planned to run the new trains as 2 lots of 5 car sets making 10 coaches on most services.

https://www.abellio.com/news/abellio-invests-ps400-million-new-trains-east-midlands-railway

Some members have posted back of fag packet calculations which show that barely over half will be doubled up. I am still interpreting the official information as indicating the 4 x 180s are only temporary. However, they could stay long term and because they are not part of the franchise today, it would still keep the promise to replace the entire fleet. It would allow an additional 4 diagrams to be double sets i.e. 2 double 180 sets and freeing up 2 units to create 2 additional 80X sets.
 

tbtc

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I travel from Wellingborough and two changes for a northbound service to Sheffield or even one change for what I call a local trip to Leicester is not progress. All it takes is a cancelled or late running service to totally mess up travel plans. Surely one of the Nottingham trains could have called at Wellingborough and the other Kettering.

It's a problem with no simple solution. There are half a dozen stations south of Leicester (worthy of some Leicester services) but no one obvious candidate for a significant number of trains to stop at (e.g. a Milton Keynes on the WCML or Reading on the GWML). Plus there's the issue that Long Distance High Speed services between Oxford/ Birmingham/ Liverpool/ Manchester/ Leeds (broadly comparable to MML services in terms of journey times/ distances) don't stop at many "local" stations, as journey time is important.

My current favourite idea would be to have a broadly fifteen minute frequency from the River Trent to London - balanced out by giving the Sheffield services two stops before Leicester (East Midlands Parkway and Loughborough) and the Nottingham service stop twice south of Leicester (to ensure that the journey times are balanced) - so half hourly at Market Harborough and then bi-hourly at Bedford/ Luton/ Luton Airport plus Wellingborough/ Kettering every four hours.

Obviously the Corby services will provide a half hourly service at Wellingborough/ Kettering but I accept that it's hard to balance between fast journeys for longer distance passengers and regular direct services for people using stations south of Leicester.

Nottingham would still have regular services to East Midlands Parkway and Loughborough with the Ivanhoe services (possibly increased to half hourly, permitting some skip-stopping?) and this avoids the awkward 15/45 kind of splits currently on London services at East Midlands Parkway/ Loughborough (as well as Market Harborough having slightly unbalanced timings).

But that's completely the opposite of the approach taken with the 345 and 700 EMUs which are fixed full length trains, as the efficiency and capacity benefits clearly outweigh any benefits from being able to run half units

I guess that the difference is that the 345s and 700s are being built to do very specific jobs for routes that they will be stuck on for the next thirty/forty years - and the high frequency "metro" services they operate aren't going to have any joining/splitting - not can I see any need for shorter trains at off-peak times.

Whereas, with the MML, the AT300s being ordered might only be there for ten/ twenty years (the 222s are fifteen years old), so have to be designed for potential future cascades - maybe part of the thinking is that five coach trains will be more attractive for TOCs in the future - whereas a "nine" coach train might only be attractive to limited routes (and the kind of services that warrant a nine coach train are maybe the kind of services that warrant brand new trains on a regular basis, rather than twenty year old cascades).

Just my guessing, but you could make a case for five coach AT300s being useful on XC services, or maybe replacing the fun-sized HSTs at GWR/ ScotRail... whereas nine coach trains would have a more restricted future and Hitatchi are fearful of ending up in a situation where their modern trains are sat unwanted (which appears to be the fate for some modern classes of EMUs in the next couple of years).

Some members have posted back of fag packet calculations which show that barely over half will be doubled up

Just speculation but... if the services run on a Sheffield - London - Nottingham - London - Sheffield diagram (with a northbound "fast" forming the next southbound "slow"), that would mean each diagram cycles round roughly every eight hours... so you could schedule it so that the doubled up diagrams provided ten coach services into London in the morning rush hour and then ten coach services leaving London at tea time... so that even if only around half the services are due to be doubled up, you could work the timetable so that these trains work the busiest services each day.

(that's not to say that there aren't significant demands outside London - I have colleagues who regularly stand between Chesterfield and Sheffield each morning/ evening - I'm not unaware of busy flows beyond the M25 - I'm just saying that you could take advantage of one big Long Distance High Speed fleet to ensure interworking that provides the capacity where most needed)
 

Jorge Da Silva

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In addition to 24m coaches instead of 26m, the new fleet will have 4 diesel engines per set of 5, compared with 3 on 800s and 802s. That is a significant performance difference and should warrant designating them as a new class. 803 would make sense but who knows!



Some members have posted back of fag packet calculations which show that barely over half will be doubled up. I am still interpreting the official information as indicating the 4 x 180s are only temporary. However, they could stay long term and because they are not part of the franchise today, it would still keep the promise to replace the entire fleet. It would allow an additional 4 diagrams to be double sets i.e. 2 double 180 sets and freeing up 2 units to create 2 additional 80X sets.

Does that exclude Corby?
 

samuelmorris

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Whereas, with the MML, the AT300s being ordered might only be there for ten/ twenty years (the 222s are fifteen years old), so have to be designed for potential future cascades - maybe part of the thinking is that five coach trains will be more attractive for TOCs in the future - whereas a "nine" coach train might only be attractive to limited routes (and the kind of services that warrant a nine coach train are maybe the kind of services that warrant brand new trains on a regular basis, rather than twenty year old cascades)
In this case though it's because the HSTs require replacement, and a 'full fleet replacement' is seeing the mid-life 222s sent elsewhere. With a common fleet to be introduced, the only reason they would transfer is if something similar to what's going on at WMR with the 170s occurs. Second-guessing cascade plans 15 years down the road is probably a bit much to consider when looking at rolling stock fleets.

Assuming the 222s end up with XC, a singular fleet for the EMR IC services makes sense, especially to eliminate diesel running under the wires. I just think this sounds like a little too much has been skimped on. Given earlier discussions about how the 158s / 170s will be dealt with, this could well be a problem across the rest of the franchise as well.
 
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