Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

Killingworth · 31 Jul 2019

Maybe it's time to find a new thread where teas and coffees can be shelved and dogs can be tethered.

I don't see any issue with either at commuting times at my station but I do see intense irritation with a machine supposedly out of tickets, and displaying unhelpful and confusing instructions. Like suggesting using another machine when there is only one! It doesn't point out that tickets can be collected at any machine, including the next station down the line that has two machines. No help for immediate travel but useful to know if able to get there to pick up advance tickets. Advice on what to do next for immediate travellers wouldn't come amiss either, the screen is big enough.

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thejuggler · 31 Jul 2019

Used a machine today for the first time in over two weeks, or should I say I tried to use it. What an absolute shambles. Adding to basket? Really? I'm buying a train ticket, not items off Amazon. It now takes twice as long.

The only bonus is you get the opportunity to add a railcard at booking stage, this was a failing of the last system.

It was all in vain anyway as the card payment system wasn't working. The guard on my service explained why - its because there is a 'y' in the day. I think that just about sums it up.

As an aside the person in front who was very frustrated at trying to buy a weekly ticket had placed her coffee on top of the machine - she nearly forgot it as she was panicking the money had been taken but the transaction hadn't completed. After an age the TVM stated the transaction hadn't completed and no money had been taken - still left her without a ticket and as she was going to Leeds she was then worried about RPI so I advised her to take photos of the error messages.

800002 · 31 Jul 2019

Bantamzen said:
Anyway I think TVM ShelfGate has been done to death now, its in Northern's hands so we will await the coming of the mythical coffee cup dumping ground, sorry shelf.....

Agreed.
-I've always been a shelfserving individual and must realise that I cannot go around imprinting my ideas for a non-shelf free environment to become otherwise, without measure.
It's been a pleasure.

Dr Hoo · 31 Jul 2019

800002 said:
Agreed.
-I've always been a shelfserving individual and must realise that I cannot go around imprinting my ideas for a non-shelf free environment to become otherwise, without measure.
It's been a pleasure.

Yes. It is clear that the whole discipline of ergonomics belongs in the dustbin as far as most on this thread are concerned.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be an integral dustbin in the machines. Perhaps Northern (and every other TOC) should provide them. :rolleyes:

Bantamzen · 31 Jul 2019

Dr Hoo said:
Yes. It is clear that the whole discipline of ergonomics belongs in the dustbin as far as most on this thread are concerned.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be an integral dustbin in the machines. Perhaps Northern (and every other TOC) should provide them.

Don't worry, the UN have been contacted and they are sending a team of Fengu Shui experts across with immediate effect..…

northernman · 31 Jul 2019

NorthernSpirit said:
I can't seem to Private Message you.

When I'm attempting to purchase tickets from the newly updated TVM at Brighouse for travel towards Trowbridge, Melksham or Westbury - it comes up with a message on screen stating that no tickets were found. Prior to the recent update to the TVM's I was able to purchase a return from Brighouse to the aformentioned stations above.

Where I'm struggling is when I've selected Trowbridge [TRO], then select return on the machine and I go and try and purchase it - the machine just keeps on bring up a message that there were no tickets found. I have tried it around four times and on every single attempt the machine simply refused me the ticket, despite knowing the fare (£111.20 return TRO/WSB, £105 return for MKM) the machine wasn't having any of it.

I'm having to, in the short term, obtain a Promise to Pay / Permit to Travel and explain the situation to the guard. To be honest, it'd be easier to staff* Brighouse as I wouldn't have to use the now unworkable TVM and instead ask the human behind the desk for my ticket, I didn't see anything wrong with the previous layout, as it was clear, easy-to-use, fast and importantly it worked! What Northern should do is temporarily roll back to the previous version and instead use that for the addtional on-screen extras such as MCard, as people will eventually refuse to use the machines and guards will start getting annoyed that passengers don't have a Permit to Travel simply because the TVM's have become so unreliable.

* The installation of a Portakabin placed under the A641 road bridge wouldn't be too difficult, nor would connecting up a power supply to the nearby shelter to provide electrics for a ticket office.

Hi, I can see there is a problem, Brighouse- Trowbridge thanks for raising it. Looking at our internal journey planner I can see that is also showing an error on that fare flow, so this may be a data problem. Please leave this one with me and I will do further digging

joke2711 · 31 Jul 2019

@northernman

Rainford Ticket Machine was issuing tickets as per attachment this morning.
Customer Assistance button came back with a message saying there was no assistance available and please contact a member of station staff!
Guard on the 0712 service to Kirkby said that he would allow travel but as I was continuing on to Merseyrail it might be better to buy another ticket (which I did).
At Liverpool Central there was a revenue block so firstly showed them the ticket issued by the Guard before then asking whether they would have accepted the tickets printed. The reply was ...... No ... and I would have received a penalty fare.

northernman · 31 Jul 2019

joke2711 said:
@northernman

Rainford Ticket Machine was issuing tickets as per attachment this morning.
Customer Assistance button came back with a message saying there was no assistance available and please contact a member of station staff!
Guard on the 0712 service to Kirkby said that he would allow travel but as I was continuing on to Merseyrail it might be better to buy another ticket (which I did).
At Liverpool Central there was a revenue block so firstly showed them the ticket issued by the Guard before then asking whether they would have accepted the tickets printed. The reply was ...... No ... and I would have received a penalty fare.

Thank you, I've reported it.

joke2711 · 31 Jul 2019

northernman said:
Thank you, I've reported it.

According to Northern's website and the message from Customer Services I have to send my tickets via the post and wait 6 weeks for a refund. Is that correct?

thejuggler · 31 Jul 2019

Alternatively you can go to any Northern ticket office and get an immediate refund.

joke2711 · 31 Jul 2019

thejuggler said:
Alternatively you can go to any Northern ticket office and get an immediate refund.

I don't get to see a Northern Ticket Office sadly ... Merseyrail to Kirkby and then Northern to Rainford (unstaffed)

NorthernSpirit · 31 Jul 2019

northernman said:
Hi, I can see there is a problem, Brighouse- Trowbridge thanks for raising it. Looking at our internal journey planner I can see that is also showing an error on that fare flow, so this may be a data problem. Please leave this one with me and I will do further digging

Cheers, hopefully the problem can be rectified. If not, then as suggested roll back to the previous version citing a fault with the recent updated version.

js517 · 31 Jul 2019

I just had to board the train without a ticket for the first time (I did ask the guard) at Mytholmroyd due to the queue of people struggling with the new interface.

I understand that the new interface offers a lot more flexibility and in theory the cheapest ticket but in my opinion this is pointless if the average interaction time is increased to the extent that I have to arrive at the station so much earlier in order to guarantee I'll be able to use the machine.

I and others have mentioned metrics such as average time to complete purchase. @northernman are you able to give us an idea of how long you expect a passenger to have to wait in a queue for a TVM.

Parham Wood · 31 Jul 2019

joke2711 said:
@northernman

Rainford Ticket Machine was issuing tickets as per attachment this morning.
Customer Assistance button came back with a message saying there was no assistance available and please contact a member of station staff!
Guard on the 0712 service to Kirkby said that he would allow travel but as I was continuing on to Merseyrail it might be better to buy another ticket (which I did).
At Liverpool Central there was a revenue block so firstly showed them the ticket issued by the Guard before then asking whether they would have accepted the tickets printed. The reply was ...... No ... and I would have received a penalty fare.

I would be looking for more than just a refund I would want compensation as well for my time and trouble.

joke2711 · 31 Jul 2019

Parham Wood said:
I would be looking for more than just a refund I would want compensation as well for my time and trouble.

You would hope so and perhaps @northernman who seems rather decent can advise further.

The situation is rather silly .. you are in a Penalty Fare area and can't get tickets that print correctly and also the assistance button says "no assistance available ... see station staff" and all this at an unmanned station.

Yesterday would have been a real problem as being end of month to buy a second ticket would have forced me to go into an arranged overdraft and with fees.

The ticket shows no detail so I guess couldn't be refunded even if I could present at a Northern Ticket office.

Merseyrail revenue enforcement confirmed my fears this morning and hence why i took the decision to buy a second ticket. If I hadn't I would have had a lot more trouble as their sting was in operation between Northern and Wirral Lines by taking the escalator short cut.

Funnily enough when explaining what had happened they relayed a story that a week or so ago they penalty fared someone who presented a blank ticket stating that they had travelled from Orrell and the machine had failed to print anything on the ticket. Not believing they issued a PF and then were inundated by other people with exactly the same problem. I do hope that this person can appeal and is successful.

The guard on the 0712 train from Kirkby (0553 from Rochdale) said this morning that it would be better to buy a ticket on the train each morning ... as the guard will always walk through ... this particular guard always does but I would say that 50% of the time, the guard chooses not to as happened yesterday and also 3 times last week!

sheff1 · 31 Jul 2019

So now people are getting Penalty Fares because Northern are incapable of installing TVMs which actually work properly !!

js1000 · 31 Jul 2019

This is a disgraceful situation and I don't even use the ticket machines as I prefer to speak to a person. Massive queue this morning at my local station with 8+ people that was in excess of 5 minutes (which meant they would have missed the train but as this was a Northern train it was not on-time anyway!). Passengers confused with the new layout. Talked to someone and it printed out only half the ticket. As others have said they'll probably still try to charge a Penalty Fare at the destination without showing any discretion as they are supposed to do. Good job I'm armed with my free complimentary tickets - they are a great weapon to hold as faulty ticket machines and closed ticket offices are sadly an increasingly regular occurrence on the Northern network. Hopefully Passenger Focus or someone steps in to resolve this ASAP.

Puffing Devil · 31 Jul 2019

northernman said:
There is currently a restriction in Rail Settlement Plan that prevents us from vending rangers and rovers on TVMs.

Why are the Virgin Machines in Wolverhampton capable of selling the local Network West Midlands Daytripper tickets - surely the same as a TfGM Wayfarer?

thejuggler · 1 Aug 2019

Day two of trying to use it - this time screen completely frozen showing M card prices.

If I were aware of so many issues I'd roll back the system to the previous version until the new one is fully tested.

joke2711 · 1 Aug 2019

@northernman exactly the same problem this morning ... appreciate things can take time to get fixed but why dont you take the machine out of service? Again I have had to pay twice for my journey ... and Northern kindly offer a refund in 6 weeks

30907 · 1 Aug 2019

Had a brief go with the TVM at Shipley this afternoon.
Relatively trivial comments.
A plus: it now offers Offpeak single (I overpaid 5p at Apperley Bridge with the old interface) at the relevant time of day.
Another: the popular stations list now only has one station on the Whitby line (Ruswarp) instead of all of them. But I'm fascinated to know why Ruswarp is singled out

TBH I didn't use the old interface very much, but I did struggle with it at times. Not sure whether this one will be 30907-proof yet

SN1 19-5 · 1 Aug 2019

I used one at Bryn on Monday to get a travel permit. To Wigan NW.

What a pain it was.

Couple of minutes later, I assisted a local (that had been hit with with a penalty fare before) to get a permit.

The system looks like it is heading to pf everybody.

Why can't you just press the "permit" button on the open screen?

I had no intention of joining the modern age and paying with a card.

Why can't you just press a button to get a permit?

joke2711 · 2 Aug 2019

@northernman pleased to report that tickets printed correctly this morning

CyrusWuff · 2 Aug 2019

SN1 19-5 said:
Why can't you just press the "permit" button on the open screen?

Because a minority of people abused the permit button, emptying machines of tickets and leaving them strewn all over the place.

johnnychips · 2 Aug 2019

^I thought ‘why would anybody do this?’ then when I went to Kiveton Park a month ago, someone had done exactly that.

61653 HTAFC · 3 Aug 2019

Much appreciate the feedback from @northernman. However the latest updates have been quite disruptive. Not only does the MCard renewal facility not work any longer, but the UI of the machines is counter-intuitive particularly for those who aren't familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the railway, such as my parents.

I do hope that Northern aren't being quite as ferocious with the Penalty Fares while these issues are sorted, but I'm not holding my breath on that front.

Ianigsy · 3 Aug 2019

Just to add my experience- went to renew my MCard at Menston this afternoon for the first time on a new machine. There seems to be a bit of a quirk of the system in that it wouldn't let me renew the ticket that was due to expire today but was quite happy for me to select one of the previous tickets on the card and renew that instead!

Slightly panicky moment after the payment had gone through in that I was a bit quick off the mark taking my card out of the holder and got a "some of your tickets were not able to be uploaded to your card" message, but when I put the card back in the holder a few minutes later the machine could see the renewed ticket so fingers crossed for Monday morning!

61653 HTAFC · 3 Aug 2019

Ianigsy said:
Just to add my experience- went to renew my MCard at Menston this afternoon for the first time on a new machine. There seems to be a bit of a quirk of the system in that it wouldn't let me renew the ticket that was due to expire today but was quite happy for me to select one of the previous tickets on the card and renew that instead!

Slightly panicky moment after the payment had gone through in that I was a bit quick off the mark taking my card out of the holder and got a "some of your tickets were not able to be uploaded to your card" message, but when I put the card back in the holder a few minutes later the machine could see the renewed ticket so fingers crossed for Monday morning!

I had the same problem, but when trying to renew both yesterday (when my Mcard still had one valid ticket on it) and today (with two expired tickets loaded on) the machine simply refused to allow me to renew. The situation was the same at three different machines (Batley, Denby Dale and Shepley) so instead I renewed at the Travel Centre at Huddersfield bus station (who no longer issue counterpart cards, apparently). I did question this and the lady in there said that now train guards have machines which can read the smartcards (which is news to me). If I encounter a bus with a broken machine I'm expected to show my receipt as proof of validity. I'm not convinced that any bus driver I've ever met would accept that.

tony_mac · 3 Aug 2019

I notice on journeycheck that there are about 25 stations with out of order machines today.

That seems like a lot; is there something going on at the moment, or is that the usual amount?

Killingworth · 3 Aug 2019

tony_mac said:
I notice on journeycheck that there are about 25 stations with out of order machines today.

That seems like a lot; is there something going on at the moment, or is that the usual amount?

It's probably as reliable as the machines themselves. The machine at Dore & Totley had a lot of down time after the upgrade. It was up and down several times a day. I haven't checked today (presumably working as no trains!) but it was left as out of order for at least a week on any station update site. I suspect many showing as out of order are not, and some that don't show on the site may not be working.

Which is more feedback because if guards have to rely on whatever drives that online infirmation to know if a machine is out of order it is often wrong!

Northern Ticket Machine Update Issues

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