Rossobus

TheGrandWazoo · 31 Jul 2019

Xenophon PCDGS said:
The 1994 reopening of the four railway stations from Clitheroe to Blackburn and subsequent direct rail services from Clitheroe to Manchester seem to cater for the travellers these days.

I think the improved rail services have had some impact on a few routes. The wider economic depression in northern towns probably more so.

RailUK Forums

Andyh82 · 31 Jul 2019

The X41 has always been on the edge in my opinion, look at how it can’t justify new buses, also the number of relaunches it has had to try and boost customer numbers. Always poor relation to the Witch Way which has gone from strength to strength.

Stan Drews · 31 Jul 2019

RustySpoons said:
The 484/X41 debacle is a complete mess. Not many people were happy about the changes to two already relatively successful services, and now they've been effectively ruined - X41 is reducing to hourly off peak, 484/Red4 struggling.

I’m always interested to hear what information/knowledge you had to form the basis of the “relatively successful” judgement?

duncombec · 31 Jul 2019

AJW12 said:
I'm looking at the changes to Mainline now... I can't see that as a reduction in terms of frequency, or a massive cut. Naturally it is going to be annoying for the 3% of people who do use the cross-city routes. But traffic all over the north now is becoming worse and cross-city routes almost always results in buses bunching and racking up lateness, so I guess this will help reliability.

And not only is is a mere 3% (however measured), but most of those only go one stop beyond the bus station. I don't know Burnley that well to know how far it is, but I imagine to be closer to another part of the town centre. I wonder whether this will end up being a similar reaction to Chatham, where the bus station was moved from around the side of the shopping centre to just outside, across a road. From the outcry you would think it had moved miles away. Nobody thought to mention the distance from door to bus station was still shorter than one end of the shopping centre to the other, let alone down the High Street.

AJW12 said:
But it isn't really an improvement, is it. It's a change that will see some routes curtailed, there's no real way to interpret it as an amazing improvement.

It depends on your perspective. If your journey is now more reliable because it isn't stuck in some problem on the other side of town, you will undoubtedly consider it an improvement. It would be less so were there big passenger flows across town that were suddenly being severed.

AJW12 said:
Re. the overall debate though - there's some harshness on both sides but ultimately, Transdev is a company ran by people who have a very close eye on PR. I don't like the fact that they do disguise fare increases or journey reductions as 'improvements' or 'simpler fares', but actually, it's not just Transdev who does it nowadays. First have recently started doing the same - in York I've seen them 'improve' services between the City and Uni (basically by reducing the frequency yet again, on an already chronically overcrowded corridor), and 'simplify' fares - by putting them up. But Transdev are just trying to keep things looking positive, and it's no different to what most businesses in every other sector do. The only difference is Transdev have no choice but to announce any changes. Any other company would just push anything negative out very quietly.

Arriva are just as guilty, and I'm sure Stagecoach are too. Roll out a few minimal improvements and suggest you've reinvented the wheel. But as other posters have said, no other business announces negativity, they just wait for you to find out (Although a Waitrose closing in Nottinghamshire to be replaced by a Lidl provoked some interesting "middle England reactions" yesterday!)

AJW12 said:
And let's be honest... First had/has for way, way too long not given a toss about making their services look appealing. Their 'it's a bus, if you can't drive you have no other option than our bus' meant unappealing exteriors, repulsive interiors and an overall service you couldn't make more unattractive if you tried.

This is exactly why Transdev have the reputation they do. They actually seem to care. Yes, it can get grating at times, but they are no different to TV adverts with grating slogans. A lot of what is criticized here could easily be transposed to the "Ashamed of buses" thread as a way of dragging people out of their cars.

peterblue · 31 Jul 2019

It's been announced officially, the Red Express X41 Accrington - Haslingden - Ramsbottom - Manchester is now going to be hourly through most of the day, with buses every 30 minutes during peak times.

http://lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2764

158756 · 31 Jul 2019

Andyh82 said:
The X41 has always been on the edge in my opinion, look at how it can’t justify new buses, also the number of relaunches it has had to try and boost customer numbers. Always poor relation to the Witch Way which has gone from strength to strength.

I wouldn't get too excited about the Witch Way. Routes around it are dropping like flies, some of the buses are getting on a bit, so it must not have been worth buying a whole new fleet for, and the Todmorden Curve has been reinstated since the last major timetable change. We shall see whether the current frequency survives when they need new buses.

On the Witch Way, Red Express, etc, they do seem to have reliability issues with deckers, the Red Express in particular, not surprising given the age of the buses and how much mileage they must do, but also the Witch Way and Hotline seem to be quite frequently replaced by single deck buses, without the branding or the advertised features.

158756 · 31 Jul 2019

peterblue said:
It's been announced officially, the Red Express X41 Accrington - Haslingden - Ramsbottom - Manchester is now going to be hourly through most of the day, with buses every 30 minutes during peak times.

http://lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2764

That's still a bit disingenuous.

"In fact, Red Express has been performing better than it ever has before since we made the change, but quite simply, we are not carrying enough people outside of the morning and evening rush hours to keep Red Express going in its current form."

The X41 has been going in some form for decades. If it really was performing better than it ever has why cut it now? IMO it won't survive long on an hourly frequency.

Alexbus12 · 31 Jul 2019

158756 said:
That's still a bit disingenuous.

"In fact, Red Express has been performing better than it ever has before since we made the change, but quite simply, we are not carrying enough people outside of the morning and evening rush hours to keep Red Express going in its current form."

The X41 has been going in some form for decades. If it really was performing better than it ever has why cut it now? IMO it won't survive long on an hourly frequency.

I bet January it goes completely, or at least some sort of part replacement for the busier part of the route

TheGrandWazoo · 31 Jul 2019

158756 said:
That's still a bit disingenuous.

"In fact, Red Express has been performing better than it ever has before since we made the change, but quite simply, we are not carrying enough people outside of the morning and evening rush hours to keep Red Express going in its current form."

The X41 has been going in some form for decades. If it really was performing better than it ever has why cut it now? IMO it won't survive long on an hourly frequency.

I don't think it is being disingenuous (unlike the Mainline announcement) and I think you're reading it all a bit too literally.

I think was they are saying that they're getting more people on in the peaks (hence the retention of that part of the service as it is) and so it's performing better in that way. However, in the off peak, they haven't got enough passengers (and by that, I would suggest fare paying passengers and we all know the issues of ENCTS remuneration). So it may be that they are getting more bums on seats and yet be worse off overall.

SCH117X · 31 Jul 2019

As for operators overly promoting services Blazefield (pre Transdev) I think still wins hand down the prize for announcing when they took over Uniteds Ripon depot they would improve the Ripon-York service and then promptly withdrew it commercially leaving NYCC to find an operator.
Looking at the current Mainline/Hotline I figure the current 7/8 min service between Burnley and Padiham includes the Hotline workings as there are a couple of 15 min gaps in the Mainline service every hour so the reduction on that section is 2 workings an hour, not 4 as might be read otherwise. Any surplus vehicles from reductions in Lancashire are probably earmarked for Harrogate and York as there was a tweet by the MD last week regarding new drivers for extra services from those depots starting in September.

RustySpoons · 31 Jul 2019

SCH117X said:
As for operators overly promoting services Blazefield (pre Transdev) I think still wins hand down the prize for announcing when they took over Uniteds Ripon depot they would improve the Ripon-York service and then promptly withdrew it commercially leaving NYCC to find an operator.
Looking at the current Mainline/Hotline I figure the current 7/8 min service between Burnley and Padiham includes the Hotline workings as there are a couple of 15 min gaps in the Mainline service every hour so the reduction on that section is 2 workings an hour, not 4 as might be read otherwise. Any surplus vehicles from reductions in Lancashire are probably earmarked for Harrogate and York as there was a tweet by the MD last week regarding new drivers for extra services from those depots starting in September.

I believe there won't be any vehicles leaving Queensgate, as the changes mean that the existing fleet will be given more running time to help punctuality.

Whether the X41's that'll be freed up with the upcoming reductions will actually be up to further work afterwards I'm not sure, although I doubt it.

The new ADLs for the 1 will be displacing B7RLEs but I believe theses are leased, although theres every chance they'll be kept on for service in Yorkshire, which does seem to be where a lot of the B7s seem to have gone lately.

Stan Drews · 31 Jul 2019

SCH117X said:
Looking at the current Mainline/Hotline I figure the current 7/8 min service between Burnley and Padiham includes the Hotline workings as there are a couple of 15 min gaps in the Mainline service every hour so the reduction on that section is 2 workings an hour, not 4 as might be read otherwise. Any surplus vehicles from reductions in Lancashire are probably earmarked for Harrogate and York as there was a tweet by the MD last week regarding new drivers for extra services from those depots starting in September.

Yes, Hotline forms part of the Mainline headway between Burnley and Padiham, so it will reduce from 7/8 to 10mins during the day (Mon-Sat). I’ve seen it confirmed on social media that the Mainline changes don’t reduce the PVR, just redistributes resources to allow the additional journey times. Therefore, it should improve by becoming more reliable. Currently it isn’t unusual to see bunching on Mainline, and it’s only a relatively short section of the route that is seeing a reduced service level, although you could argue that a reliable 10 min frequency is better than an unreliable 7/8 min frequency?

Stan Drews · 31 Jul 2019

SCH117X said:
Any surplus vehicles from reductions in Lancashire are probably earmarked for Harrogate and York as there was a tweet by the MD last week regarding new drivers for extra services from those depots starting in September.

Should have added to my previous reply that whilst there won’t be any surplus vehicles from the Lancashire ‘reductions’, I understand that Transdev have had some success with City of York tenders beginning in September.

SCH117X · 31 Jul 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
They also explained the issue of Transdev/Caisse de Depots leasing vehicles - not a UK decision and hence why they have a disjointed fleet profile,

The leasing of vehicles actually started pre Transdev when Giles Fearnley decided to sell Blazefield - the 2006 Gemini for the 36 for example which although registered in the short Velioa Transdev period as X13VTD quickly thereafter went off lease and still retains that VTD numberplate - it is now operated by Westbus, Hayes, Middlesex.

RustySpoons · 31 Jul 2019

Stan Drews said:
Yes, Hotline forms part of the Mainline headway between Burnley and Padiham, so it will reduce from 7/8 to 10mins during the day (Mon-Sat). I’ve seen it confirmed on social media that the Mainline changes don’t reduce the PVR, just redistributes resources to allow the additional journey times. Therefore, it should improve by becoming more reliable. Currently it isn’t unusual to see bunching on Mainline, and it’s only a relatively short section of the route that is seeing a reduced service level, although you could argue that a reliable 10 min frequency is better than an unreliable 7/8 min frequency?

Not only that, it also makes it easier from a passenger point of view to know when there'll be a bus. 10 minute frequencies are lot easier to understand and remember than 7/8 minute frequencies.

Alexbus12 · 31 Jul 2019

There are a number of buses at Rosso which will soon no longer comply with tfgm tender rules so I presume will be displaced elsewhere. Think it's darts and some deckers. Will be interesting where they end up, unless Transdev keep them and are careful not to allocate them onto tenders

Deerfold · 31 Jul 2019

RustySpoons said:
Not only that, it also makes it easier from a passenger point of view to know when there'll be a bus. 10 minute frequencies are lot easier to understand and remember than 7/8 minute frequencies.

Although 7/8 minute frequencies are where I don't even bother to look up the times before going to the stop.

TheGrandWazoo · 31 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
Although 7/8 minute frequencies are where I don't even bother to look up the times before going to the stop.

Back in the day when I was a transport student (and buses were horse drawn), we were told research said 15 mins frequency was when passengers didn’t bother with going for specific journeys. How true that actually is, I don’t know

158756 · 31 Jul 2019

Deerfold said:
Although 7/8 minute frequencies are where I don't even bother to look up the times before going to the stop.

Exactly. 10 minutes still isn't that long to wait but I'd keep a slightly more careful eye on the timetable, though nowadays when I use the bus I look at where the bus is on the app before I set off rather than the timetable.

TheGrandWazoo · 31 Jul 2019

SCH117X said:
The leasing of vehicles actually started pre Transdev when Giles Fearnley decided to sell Blazefield - the 2006 Gemini for the 36 for example which although registered in the short Velioa Transdev period as X13VTD quickly thereafter went off lease and still retains that VTD numberplate - it is now operated by Westbus, Hayes, Middlesex.

That’s as maybe but as CDD operate mostly on a franchise model globally, they are much more comfortable with leasing vehicles than buying.

Stan Drews · 31 Jul 2019

Alexbus12 said:
There are a number of buses at Rosso which will soon no longer comply with tfgm tender rules so I presume will be displaced elsewhere. Think it's darts and some deckers. Will be interesting where they end up, unless Transdev keep them and are careful not to allocate them onto tenders

Yeah, there’s a batch of 8 Enviro400s (2811-8) currently entering service to replace the DDs that will no longer be TfGM compliant for the 19/20 academic year.

Alexbus12 · 31 Jul 2019

Stan Drews said:
Yeah, there’s a batch of 8 Enviro400s (2811-8) currently entering service to replace the DDs that will no longer be TfGM compliant for the 19/20 academic year.

It's not only deckers that will no longer be compliant, but some single deck buses which operate normal tendered services which will be to old. Darts, and I believe solos, unless the solos are now withdrawn

duncombec · 31 Jul 2019

Stan Drews said:
although you could argue that a reliable 10 min frequency is better than an unreliable 7/8 min frequency?

First Bristol found this to be the case with one of their routes (I'm sorry, I can't remember which one - it was a talk two years ago!). A more reliable route at a lower frequency actually increased passenger numbers.

Man of Kent · 31 Jul 2019

duncombec said:
First Bristol found this to be the case with one of their routes (I'm sorry, I can't remember which one - it was a talk two years ago!). A more reliable route at a lower frequency actually increased passenger numbers.

Mint Route 5 - although I think it only became 'Minted' after the frequency reduction.

158756 · 1 Aug 2019

Alexbus12 said:
It's not only deckers that will no longer be compliant, but some single deck buses which operate normal tendered services which will be to old. Darts, and I believe solos, unless the solos are now withdrawn

I've seen a picture of one of the 'new' deckers on the 480 this week. They surely aren't planning to use them on tenders are they?

Stan Drews · 1 Aug 2019

158756 said:
I've seen a picture of one of the 'new' deckers on the 480 this week. They surely aren't planning to use them on tenders are they?

Yes, they’ll be on TfGM school contracts (once the schools go back), along with whatever normal service work sensibly fits around them. Probably a mix of commercial and tendered routes. Once the schools are back again I expect you’ll see them doing much the same work that DDs could be found on before the holidays.

JetBlast · 3 Aug 2019

Alexbus12 said:
There are a number of buses at Rosso which will soon no longer comply with tfgm tender rules so I presume will be displaced elsewhere. Think it's darts and some deckers. Will be interesting where they end up, unless Transdev keep them and are careful not to allocate them onto tenders

Stan Drews said:
Yeah, there’s a batch of 8 Enviro400s (2811-8) currently entering service to replace the DDs that will no longer be TfGM compliant for the 19/20 academic year.

What model deckers will not compliant please?

Andyh82 · 3 Aug 2019

JetBlast said:
What model deckers will not compliant please?

The oldest ones, I believe TfGM have a 15 year limit on school contracts?

darloscott · 4 Aug 2019

Andyh82 said:
The oldest ones, I believe TfGM have a 15 year limit on school contracts?

All tendered work, which includes schools

JetBlast · 4 Aug 2019

Andyh82 said:
The oldest ones, I believe TfGM have a 15 year limit on school contracts?

I didn't think any of the 2002 deckers where based at Rochdale.

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