After the brake test was carried out??Shunter left brakes isolated on the rake. This is not speculation. Happy to be told it is, if it makes anybody feel better.
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Braking issue on Caledonian Sleeper causes train to "run away" at Edinburgh
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Good to hear. But we have tragically seen recently how that doesn't always reflect in reality. And a plurality of safety systems is a good thing. I am surprised that it seems to be seen as a bit "whoopsie.... never mind, no harm done, let's move on....." [which is the sense I get from some of the posts....[maybe wrongly]]
Where did tsr say that it wasn't a safety issue?
Put Kettle On
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Never mind the running brake test, what about the static brake test, after the loco was attached & the train had been split . Surely that has to be done as matter of course, as brake continuity needs to be confirmed.
Then, did we have an over speed event, as there is a PSR of 70MPH before Midcalder.
If Driver had contacted Signaller between Haymarket & Waverley, then good luck played a part having a clear run in towards Haymarket .
Then, did we have an over speed event, as there is a PSR of 70MPH before Midcalder.
If Driver had contacted Signaller between Haymarket & Waverley, then good luck played a part having a clear run in towards Haymarket .
EE Andy b1
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Stating the obvious i know, but BRAKES (working) are paramount.
This should not be able to happen on modern rolling stock, human error or not.
This event could have been so much more serious. Not the fault of the stock it would seem, but Caledonian need to get there act together in so many ways.
This should not be able to happen on modern rolling stock, human error or not.
This event could have been so much more serious. Not the fault of the stock it would seem, but Caledonian need to get there act together in so many ways.
Highlandspring
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I’m glad it’s all been cleared up by posters on here within 12 hours. Someone had better email the RAIB and let them know not to bother wasting their time progressing the investigation.
Norther Monkey
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Caledonian Sleeper's Twitter feed suggests they're happy it's all cleared up.
The replies to their tweet won't be doing much for the marketing team's blood pressure though.
hotel_mode
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Wilts Wanderer
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Possible similarities to the Class 67 runaway on Filton Bank a number of years ago? That ended up in a pile at Lawrence Hill. Shows what could have happened if Edinburgh didn't have a through line available to run through, during the morning peak no less.
Edit - do class 92's have sufficient dynamic (regen) braking that the lack of physical train brake would only come apparent at the lower speed range? Would explain why the stock didn't end up in a big pile at Haymarket East after the long descent from Midcalder.
Edit - do class 92's have sufficient dynamic (regen) braking that the lack of physical train brake would only come apparent at the lower speed range? Would explain why the stock didn't end up in a big pile at Haymarket East after the long descent from Midcalder.
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hotel_mode
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Isn't the problem that the operator has come up with a conclusion on social media in even less than 12 hours in an attempt to pretend it doesn't matter?
EE Andy b1
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There GBRf staff under contract to CS.
Chris Hamilton
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Eh? Whit? Yes we do have safe systems of work, but in Scotland that doesn’t include a Lookout. I’m not sure of the exact distance from protecting signal to the tunnel, but if me and my team were working beyond the minimum overlap of our protecting signal and a train overshoots beyond it, then it’s potentially game over. We appoint Site Wardens, but their job is not to look for trains, but to watch that we don’t stray. I’d hope the driver is hard on the horn if he/she overshoots but as we see, human error happens.
No amount of disconnected points detection or signals are going to save a team working on the track from a train with degraded braking.
Dieseldriver
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Not necessarily. In normal operation they are designed to be failsafe however, if there is no air whatsoever in a vehicle then the brakes will not apply (hence the use of handbrake when stabling). If there is no brake continuity between a locomotive and train then the brakes on the train will not respond to the driver making a brake application, only the locomotive brakes will apply. If there are multiple vehicles with brakes isolated, this will severely affect the brake force.
Additionally, if there is severe low temperatures or snowfall, this can severely affect the brake force (check out the incidents at Carrbridge and Carstairs that occurred in 2010). If there is extremely poor railhead conditions then this can dramatically increase stopping distances (check out the Esher incident aswell as a couple of others).
I'm not offering any of these as an explanation or suggestion of events that lead to today's incident, just showing that whilst train brakes are 'failsafe', this does not necessarily mean incidents like this are impossible.
a_c_skinner
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In the olden days the communication cord did activate the train brake (as in my runaway example). Brakes have changed, does pulling the modern equivalent do this? I assume not.
My understanding, so open to correction, is that on modern stock it will dump the brakes but the driver can override it. So if someone hits the passcom then the driver can prevent the brakes applying whilst they ascertain the situation i.e. that it's an emergency where stopping is important rather than someone's kid thinking "oooh shiny red button!" or if they do need to stop then it gives the driver the option of not stopping in a tunnel or on a viaduct. But if the driver doesn't override it then it will still dump the brakes as is traditional.
Robertj21a
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Incredible.
A modern UK train, on a highly regulated railway, can't stop.............
Please tell me I've misunderstood something.
A modern UK train, on a highly regulated railway, can't stop.............
Please tell me I've misunderstood something.
Dieseldriver
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It seems that you are correct. Obviously the investigation will find out the course of events and caused but to read a spokesperson say that there was no threat to safety would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.
syorksdeano
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It's a good job that they don't have some sort of entertainment system that shows films. Could you imagine tonight?
"Welcome aboard the Caledonian Sleeper. Tonight film picks are Speed or The taking of Phelam 123".
But in all seriousness it could have been a lot worse. Certainly isn't something you want to happen when your reputation is already poor.
"Welcome aboard the Caledonian Sleeper. Tonight film picks are Speed or The taking of Phelam 123".
But in all seriousness it could have been a lot worse. Certainly isn't something you want to happen when your reputation is already poor.
I once went on a day trip to Munich to see Manchester United play Bayern Munich. Someone decided it would be a good idea on the way out to play a documentary about the Munich air disaster on the plane's entertainment system.
TimboM
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No, that’s incorrect.
The traction (locomotives and their associated drivers, maintenance etc) is provided by GBRf to SERCO. The GBRf staff work for GBRf (not under contract to anyone).
The shunters are not GBRf staff - they are either directly employed by Serco or are provided under separate contract to them. The ones at Euston are Victa Rail. Not sure about Scotland end, but believe the Edinburgh / Carstairs one’s are direct Serco employees.
That then is a step backwards.
Have no lessons been learned from past mishaps?
Its up to the staff on the ground to be happy with the protection or stop work.
Been like that for the last forty years .
syorksdeano
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That's very poor taste, but reminds me of another incident on a plane where in in-flight movie was Alive.
But going back to the braking system issue, when was the last time something like this happened?
GW43125
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Obviously I don't know for certain, but I'm assuming the brake valve (or red button) in the guard's compartment would still dump the brakes (in the same way that hitting an emergency brake plunger in the rear cab of a unit will)?
Edit to add-I mean in theory, as practice and theory appear to have parted ways this morning.
Robertj21a
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So, all this money, all the rules, signalmen, drivers and numerous additional staff needed to run a national railway network - in 2019.......
.........but a train can run without a failsafe braking system.
.........but a train can run without a failsafe braking system.
BRX
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I'm trying to understand the sequence of events at Carstairs - the 8 coaches are detached, presumably with the brakes still on (or are they held entirely on a hand brake?) then the loco attaches. If they are then inadvertently left isolated from the loco, then would the brakes not still be on, at the point at which the train tries to move away? Would it not require an action from the driver at this point to release the brakes - and if the driver were unable to release them it would quickly become apparent that something was wrong.
That I don't know as I was purely talking about passenger operated buttons not staff only buttons! But yes that would seem logical.
DarloRich
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No lookout?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Wilts Wanderer
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I read that a few times as well, the only thing I can infer from it is that red zone working is now banned in Scotland without signal protection of the lines being worked on?
I think this would definitely be a new pants situation for most drivers, must be quite a shock when braking is asked for and none/very little is provided. It must have been a relief when the driver was routed so that they would have time to use the loco braking. Makes you understand even more why unfitted freight was outlawed on the national record.
Questions will be asked and it will be interesting to read the RAIB report, things like this shouldn't happen.
Questions will be asked and it will be interesting to read the RAIB report, things like this shouldn't happen.
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