How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

Edders23 · 1 Aug 2019

Maybach said:
Chris Milner’s editorial in the new issue of ‘Railway Magazine’ makes for grim reading. I hadn’t realised that the West Somerset Railway was on the verge of bankruptcy. Apparently, its wage costs were £1.25m in 2018 on an average turnover of £3m:

“When a line such as the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway can manage with just seven paid staff for its 14-mile length, then 50 staff for a 22-mile line is likely to ring alarm bells throughout the heritage railway movement especially in what is a volunteer led sector…The WSR isn’t the first to face a major financial crisis and probably won’t be the last.”

Not to mention the millions that they need to spend upgrading the level crossing and trackwork between Minehead and blue anchor

But I doubt they will usually stories like this are as much about galvanising the faithful supporters into digging deep into their pockets as they are about highlighting preserved railway frailties

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Edders23 · 1 Aug 2019

I predict that very few if any heritage lines will close because they are seen as essential tourist attractions and often are helped by councils and tourist organisations.

Some will be more successful than others because they will attract more volunteers especially if they live in an area of the country full of retired civil servants,company directors etc. as these are the sort of people most likely to have the money and the desire to get involved

many railways are attracting younger volunteers as there are whole generations of kids growing up having been indulged as a young child in whatever their favourite tv character was and Thomas always seems to be one of the most popular

Some of these railways have raised 10's of millions of share capital over the years and have won a place in the hearts an minds of many an enthusiast and non enthusiasts who love a day out on a steam train. They won't fail as there will always be a willingness of people to throw money at them to keep them going for their future enjoyment

The ones that will struggle are the newer ventures like the Bramley line that simply don't have an established base to build on so will not have the stock money or volunteers

The reason we have so many heritage lines is that so many people love trains or feel nostalgic about them in the UK and if there wasn't money rolling in then they would never have got off the ground

The only cloud I can see on the Horizon is if the costs of maintaining them rise sharply due to factors such as increased standards imposed by the railway inspectorate or the age of the infrastructure.

As I see it the heritage railway world is thriving but as always needs whatever cash it can grab as there is always something that needs money spending on it

Paul Hitchcock · 1 Aug 2019

Edders23 said:
Not to mention the millions that they need to spend upgrading the level crossing and trackwork between Minehead and blue anchor

But I doubt they will usually stories like this are as much about galvanising the faithful supporters into digging deep into their pockets as they are about highlighting preserved railway frailties

Edders23 said:
I predict that very few if any heritage lines will close because they are seen as essential tourist attractions and often are helped by councils and tourist organisations.

Some will be more successful than others because they will attract more volunteers especially if they live in an area of the country full of retired civil servants,company directors etc. as these are the sort of people most likely to have the money and the desire to get involved

many railways are attracting younger volunteers as there are whole generations of kids growing up having been indulged as a young child in whatever their favourite tv character was and Thomas always seems to be one of the most popular

Some of these railways have raised 10's of millions of share capital over the years and have won a place in the hearts an minds of many an enthusiast and non enthusiasts who love a day out on a steam train. They won't fail as there will always be a willingness of people to throw money at them to keep them going for their future enjoyment

The ones that will struggle are the newer ventures like the Bramley line that simply don't have an established base to build on so will not have the stock money or volunteers

The reason we have so many heritage lines is that so many people love trains or feel nostalgic about them in the UK and if there wasn't money rolling in then they would never have got off the ground

The only cloud I can see on the Horizon is if the costs of maintaining them rise sharply due to factors such as increased standards imposed by the railway inspectorate or the age of the infrastructure.

As I see it the heritage railway world is thriving but as always needs whatever cash it can grab as there is always something that needs money spending on it

Much of this is pure wishful thinking which may or may not prove to be justified. That certain organisations are facing financial difficulty is not in doubt.

geoffk · 1 Aug 2019

A letter in "Heritage Railway" 256 urges caution before any expansion of the G-WR to Honeybourne, beacuse of the pressure this would put on the mostly volunteer workforce and the consequent need to increase paid staff.

Edders23 · 2 Aug 2019

geoffk said:
A letter in "Heritage Railway" 256 urges caution before any expansion of the G-WR to Honeybourne, beacuse of the pressure this would put on the mostly volunteer workforce and the consequent need to increase paid staff.

they don't own the trackbed so it would require a lot of fundraising just to secure that

Edders23 · 2 Aug 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
Much of this is pure wishful thinking which may or may not prove to be justified. That certain organisations are facing financial difficulty is not in doubt.

we are a very resourceful nation Heritage railways have always been strapped for cash when the going gets tough they seem to always be able to raise funds and prosper

Flying Phil · 2 Aug 2019

Edders23 said:
we are a very resourceful nation Heritage railways have always been strapped for cash when the going gets tough they seem to always be able to raise funds and prosper

I agree with this and can remember Mr Draper (SVR)? being quoted 20 -30 years ago saying that we had reached the peak of preservation and there were too many schemes....
What is becoming apparent is that, although the "original" preservationists are getting fewer (- yes we are dying off!), a new generation are coming through who have fallen into the love of working steam and railways - having seen only the preservation scene.
Whilst many are indeed fortunate to have reasonable pensions, we do also have health and a desire to use time usefully post retirement. The socialising aspects of Preservation schemes for the older generation should be applauded ..... and valued.

LeylandLen · 2 Aug 2019

There was an item on regional BBC News (North west tonight) yesterday featuring the Lakeside and Haverthwaite railway in the Lake Distric.
The female presenter said, I think , that 13 million people visited 'steam'railways last year (including many from overseas)and then stated how much they are worth to the economy (i will have to rewatch to get correct figure).Im not sure how you define 'steam' railways ; as we know many private/heritage lines also run diesels.The item was mainly about how steam locos are affecting the atmosphere with pollution and that legisltion could effect their viability regarding carbon emissions,

reddragon · 2 Aug 2019

geoffk said:
A letter in "Heritage Railway" 256 urges caution before any expansion of the G-WR to Honeybourne, beacuse of the pressure this would put on the mostly volunteer workforce and the consequent need to increase paid staff.

They are very mindful of that fact and will only proceed if a financial business case can be made to do so, which probably will be the case one day but that day isn't in 2019.

Macwomble · 2 Aug 2019

According to the Government heritage railways input half a billion pounds to the UK economy each year.

Shenandoah · 2 Aug 2019

I suggest many are skating on thin ice.
We know of the WSR plight and the Llangollen, Peak Rail has has criticisms on another Forum. The cost of maintaining stock and other infrastructure is expensive and cost will continue to rise.
Expansion seems to be a widely promoted idea on many lines but often the value for money, as they say, is overlooked and many businesses (non railway) have often found, to their dismay, that extra enterprises have been a drain on their cash reserves and the new extra trade has not been profitable - if it ever materialised.
I know many volunteers and enthusiasts want to see progress, extensions and other laudable hopes, but they come at a high cost. Some lines, such as the SVR, having a large Metropolitan area, such as the West Midlands on their doorstep, have been able to expand and profit by it. However, so many others are out in the sticks, so as to say, and rely on people often travelling long distances to get to their line.
I think it is now time that some heritage lines started to take stock of their situation. Legislation, Brexit and other factors, I am sure, loom near and I know most volunteers/supporters would prefer their line to continue as it is, than fail though far too ambitious adventures.

Shenandoah · 2 Aug 2019

Macwomble said:
According to the Government heritage railways input half a billion pounds to the UK economy each year.

It certainly does, but does the heritage sector get their due share? I don't believe they do.

Edders23 · 3 Aug 2019

Peak rails problems are down to the lady in charge at least now she has people on the board with a bit more business sense so perhaps things will improve

EvanDMU · 8 Aug 2019

Llangollen's accounts are now available at Companies House.
The PLC (operating company) has posted a loss of £269,657 for the year ending 31 December 2018. This compares with a loss of £31,432 the year before.
Turnover fell from £2.1m to £1.9m but costs rose from £828,550 to £965,372
The company appears to have taken out a new loan and bank overdrafts.

The Trust's accounts have been circulated to members. That has made an additional loss of £37,054, despite receiving £61,000 in legacies.
Again there is a new bank loan.

Total losses then £306,711, or put another way £840 for every day of the year.

Peter C · 8 Aug 2019

EvanDMU said:
Llangollen's accounts are now available at Companies House.
The PLC (operating company) has posted a loss of £269,657 for the year ending 31 December 2018. This compares with a loss of £31,432 the year before.
Turnover fell from £2.1m to £1.9m but costs rose from £828,550 to £965,372
The company appears to have taken out a new loan and bank overdrafts.

The Trust's accounts have been circulated to members. That has made an additional loss of £37,054, despite receiving £61,000 in legacies.
Again there is a new bank loan.

Total losses then £306,711, or put another way £840 for every day of the year.

Blimey! That's really not good. So, what has happened to make this happen? Has it been a change of management or just rising costs?

-Peter

Paul Hitchcock · 8 Aug 2019

Peter C said:
Blimey! That's really not good. So, what has happened to make this happen? Has it been a change of management or just rising costs?

-Peter

Expensive extension? Cost control, particularly in relation to contract work?

People might be interested to know that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, with five miles of route, has a virtually identical turnover.

Peter C · 8 Aug 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
Expensive extension? Cost control, particularly in relation to contract work?

People might be interested to know that the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, with five miles of route, has a virtually identical turnover.

OK - thanks for clearing that one up - I was meant to imply other ideas were available but that's not how it came out.
So is there any link between these two railways? Or is it just a case of the railways are not doing too well financially at the moment?

-Peter

Paul Hitchcock · 8 Aug 2019

Peter C said:
OK - thanks for clearing that one up - I was meant to imply other ideas were available but that's not how it came out.
So is there any link between these two railways? Or is it just a case of the railways are not doing too well financially at the moment?

-Peter

No link at all, save that the turnover of the two concerns is very similar. It is, howver, sufficient to enable a small organisation, which does, however, own all its own real estate and equipment, to post a respectable surplus, if not a fortune.

Peter C · 8 Aug 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
No link at all, save that the turnover of the two concerns is very similar. It is, howver, sufficient to enable a small organisation, which does, however, own all its own real estate and equipment, to post a respectable surplus, if not a fortune.

Cheers.

-Peter

michaelh · 19 Oct 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
I see where you are coming from but IMHO this sort of argument can be a little simplistic. For example, do the respective staffing figures include catering people or are some of these facilities franchised out? Catering can be intensely profitable.

Again IMHO, apart from the convoluted structure of the WSR, the real problem seems to be its excessive length. This reduces the "take" which can be extracted per mile and makes staffing by unpaid labour more problematical.

It isn't really a proper like for like comparison. The GWSR hires in all it's locos and the loco owners are responsible for most of the maintenance and all the overhauls - other railways do this in-house. The main catering outlet at Toddington is franchised - other railways employ staff. Carriage cleaning is undertaken by contractors - other railways employ staff.

reddragon · 22 Oct 2019

michaelh said:
It isn't really a proper like for like comparison. The GWSR hires in all it's locos and the loco owners are responsible for most of the maintenance and all the overhauls - other railways do this in-house. The main catering outlet at Toddington is franchised - other railways employ staff. Carriage cleaning is undertaken by contractors - other railways employ staff.

The GWsR must have operating agreements with its sister loco owning / DMU groups. These groups would have a special deal with the GWsR operating company because of their base being there in a GWsR shed, being also part of the GWsR family etc so not anything like actually 'hiring in' a loco. The volunteers working on all aspect of steam / diesel / rolling stock are also GWsR volunteers! Locos worked on by GWsR volunteers then get hired out to other railways for profit, so a good deal is had by all sides.

Most catering is by the railway catering services all volunteers, except at Toddington which is on a franchise, so an income rather than a drain on resources.

Some cleaning switched to contractors when the railway upped from 2 sets of coaches to 4 sets but not all.

So in a downturn, the railway can remove employed staff, hire out locos and maybe rolling stock and still continue to operate whereas the SVR & WSR require paid staff to operate - a big difference!

paul1609 · 24 Oct 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
No link at all, save that the turnover of the two concerns is very similar. It is, howver, sufficient to enable a small organisation, which does, however, own all its own real estate and equipment, to post a respectable surplus, if not a fortune.

Paul, Ive looked in to the finances of the IOWSR to see if their are any lessons that my own railway could learn. I like the people there and its undoubtably very well run but it also has a lot of advantages which are not really transferable in that its on an Island which has a captive (but possibly declining) tourist market.
The length of the line is perhaps not as relevant as the fact that its major station is located half way along the line which allows it to mostly run a one train in steam service. All its retail and attractions are based at this central station. It has only negligible gradients which allows for very economic running and yes I have had the courtesy of being allowed to fire a return trip on the line.
At one end it is fed customers by a national rail line that has the highest passenger subsidy (by an enormous margin) in the UK. The interchange station was largely funded by the national network.
Clearly its nice that it has never really had to operate with any debt but that again is not easily replicated on many of the mainline railway.
In fairness most of the IOWSR staff Ive spoken to understand that.

Paul Hitchcock · 24 Oct 2019

paul1609 said:
Paul, Ive looked in to the finances of the IOWSR to see if their are any lessons that my own railway could learn. I like the people there and its undoubtably very well run but it also has a lot of advantages which are not really transferable in that its on an Island which has a captive (but possibly declining) tourist market.
The length of the line is perhaps not as relevant as the fact that its major station is located half way along the line which allows it to mostly run a one train in steam service. All its retail and attractions are based at this central station. It has only negligible gradients which allows for very economic running and yes I have had the courtesy of being allowed to fire a return trip on the line.
At one end it is fed customers by a national rail line that has the highest passenger subsidy (by an enormous margin) in the UK. The interchange station was largely funded by the national network.
Clearly its nice that it has never really had to operate with any debt but that again is not easily replicated on many of the mainline railway.
In fairness most of the IOWSR staff Ive spoken to understand that.

Just a couple of points, both quite factual.

Firstly, the start out of Havenstreet in both directions is 1 in 70. Hardly negligible although not particularly long.

Secondly, it is very easy to overestimate the contribution of a "main line" connection. They make a valuable contribution certainly but, in the case of the IOWSR, the greatest contribution by far is by road, especially to Havenstreet. Today was absolutely typical. Despite appalling weather, the trains were extremely busy, particularly with groups who arrived by motor coach.

paul1609 · 24 Oct 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
Just a couple of points, both quite factual.

Firstly, the start out of Havenstreet in both directions is 1 in 70. Hardly negligible although not particularly long.

Secondly, it is very easy to overestimate the contribution of a "main line" connection. They make a valuable contribution certainly but, in the case of the IOWSR, the greatest contribution by far is by road, especially to Havenstreet. Today was absolutely typical. Despite appalling weather, the trains were extremely busy, particularly with groups who arrived by motor coach.

Paul, as i recall the 1 in 70 is for about 500 yards in each direction, I'd describe that as pretty negligible rather than not particularly long.
practically every heritage railways principle traffic at this time of year is coach parties. However in the IOWSRs case id suggest that they do in fact over the course of a season receive a significant number of day trippers from Island Rail. if this didn't receive a huge subsidy that business would be significantly reduced. There is an argument that every visitor to smallbrook junction (isle of wight steam railway) is receiving a subsidy of £8 from the public purse. No other heritage railway receives this level of subsidy that i know.

Paul Hitchcock · 24 Oct 2019

paul1609 said:
Paul, as i recall the 1 in 70 is for about 500 yards in each direction, I'd describe that as pretty negligible rather than not particularly long.
practically every heritage railways principle traffic at this time of year is coach parties. However in the IOWSRs case id suggest that they do in fact over the course of a season receive a significant number of day trippers from Island Rail. if this didn't receive a huge subsidy that business would be significantly reduced. There is an argument that every visitor to smallbrook junction (isle of wight steam railway) is receiving a subsidy of £8 from the public purse. No other heritage railway receives this level of subsidy that i know.

In the circumstances of the IOW I would have expected more people to come via Smallbrook than do.The uneven interval service must be part of the reason. The future expenditure may result in increased useof the route but railway enthusiasts are notorious for wishful thinking about business generated by mainline connections when the initial novelty has worn off.

paul1609 · 25 Oct 2019

Paul Hitchcock said:
In the circumstances of the IOW I would have expected more people to come via Smallbrook than do.The uneven interval service must be part of the reason. The future expenditure may result in increased useof the route but railway enthusiasts are notorious for wishful thinking about business generated by mainline connections when the initial novelty has worn off.

As I understand it Smallbrook Junction accounts for approx 6500 passengers a year which at £8 a passenger equates to £52000 a year subsidy to the IOWSR. My point really however is that the IOWSR is somewhat unique and it is difficult or impossible for other railways to take on many of its principles. So what you are suggesting in your original point is really like comparing chalk and cheese.

On the issue of mainline connections Ive done a lot of study of various leisure railways in order to quantify a business case for a future extension. I'd agree with you that the advantages of a mainline connection attracting passengers is generally overstated. I know of two railways who have considered giving up their use of a Nationalrail station in order to save costs though neither have currently done so.
The case of through ticketing (to national rail) is even worst. Ive only ever found one railway which receives a positive cash benefit. Ive conclude most railways that have it as a comfort to their management. Ive had one manager who was quite hostile to me when I showed him the figures Id worked out although he didn't query the figures Id produced for his own railway.

jumble · 25 Oct 2019

My understanding is that Welshpool and LLanfiar lose £50K a year on ticket income vs costs
The tea room makes some of it back
There must be many supporters who love the railway and dig deep especially when one considers how much the stunning Pickering coaches must have cost

ic31420 · 26 Oct 2019

EvanDMU said:
Llangollen's accounts are now available at Companies House... (snip)

Total losses then £306,711, or put another way £840 for every day of the year.

Peter C said:
Blimey! That's really not good. So, what has happened to make this happen? Has it been a change of management or just rising costs?

-Peter

I used to be a regular visitor to Llan. But I've not been for 7 or so years.

I've juts asked myself why as I think it's one of the best. The answer seems to be that I stopped going when there was some sort of split in/with the diesel group.

I was planning on going to the autumn diesel gala but was ill at the time.

LeylandLen · 27 Oct 2019

I would like to know if you think that webcams are a good way of showing off the Heritage lines. I know that North Yorks Moors Railway (NYMR.co.uk ) does have 2 webcams which are usually have live free to watch webcams as does FFestiniog Railway (Festrail.co.uk)
Obviously the lines would prefer real people visiting the lines, but as I see it a webcam streaming could be another good income stream especially if there is suitable relative advertising. This would be important at this time of year, autumn winter as many close down .Perhaps several Heritage railways could get together and offer information , maybe with a blog and chat facilities under one easy to find website . Im led to believe that many people around the world , such as in Japan and China, take an interest in our heritage railways.The people who run the heritage railways will know from visitors as to the amount of interest there is from around the world. On other non-railway sites every click on a link to a site can generate income via subscription and/or advertising.
There are webcams at Dawlish in Devon ( I know they show passing NR trains and work being done on the sea wall) https://www.dawlishbeach.com/cameras/free-cameras/the-blenheim-cam/ to publisise the area with advertisig so I assume having webcams is a good way of publicity . All ideas suggestions welcome.

Maybach · 27 Oct 2019

LeylandLen said:
I would like to know if you think that webcams are a good way of showing off the Heritage lines. I know that North Yorks Moors Railway (NYMR.co.uk ) does have 2 webcams which are usually have live free to watch webcams as does FFestiniog Railway (Festrail.co.uk)
There are webcams at Dawlish in Devon ( I know they show passing NR trains and work being done on the sea wall) https://www.dawlishbeach.com/cameras/free-cameras/the-blenheim-cam/ to publisise the area with advertisig so I assume having webcams is a good way of publicity . All ideas suggestions welcome.

Yes, I think they are! I'd never been to the West Somerset Railway until this summer and it was largely due to watching the line's excellent webcams that persuaded me!

How many of our Heritage Railways are in trouble?

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