Derby Resignalling - 22 July - 7 October 2018

Belperpete · 8 Mar 2019

rower40 said:
The Birmingham to Nottingham service should always use platform 4, and the Nottingham to Birmingham should use platform 3. Both services should run 'bang road' (Up the down slow, and down the Up slow) between Derby and Peartree. Then there would be no trains using the scissors between platforms 3 and 4, and there can be parallel departures. The only conflict is on a fixed diamond on arrival - and that can be first-come-first-served. The signallers seem to be doing this for those pairs of trains where the services are timed into those platforms. I commute in on 1D53 each morning (0825 from Willington into platform 4), and when I alight, the platform starting signals of both platform 3 and 4 are sometimes green - with 1D53 routed to Nottingham, and 1V05 routed to Birmingham from platform 3 on the Up Tamworth Slow line.

Agreed. However, taking as a sample between 0800 and 1400 today, seven of the reversals are scheduled to be platformed as you suggest, while five are platformed the other way around. There is no logic to it that I can see, it appears totally random which way round they are platformed.

The recent works at Ambergate Junction highlighted the short-comings of the new layout at Derby, with not only the Nottingham - Birmingham/Cardiff trains, but also the NE-SW services also having to use platforms 3 and 4, as these are now the only platforms that can be used by services reversing between Willington and Long Eaton. Every time I caught a train from Derby during the works, I saw services from Birmingham being held outside the station waiting for a platform.

RailUK Forums

Jozhua · 8 Mar 2019

Belperpete said:
The recent works at Ambergate Junction highlighted the short-comings of the new layout at Derby, with not only the Nottingham - Birmingham/Cardiff trains, but also the NE-SW services also having to use platforms 3 and 4, as these are now the only platforms that can be used by services reversing between Willington and Long Eaton. Every time I caught a train from Derby during the works, I saw services from Birmingham being held outside the station waiting for a platform.

As much as I love the new Derby layout, I am surprised they didn't add in some more points for future flexibility! Platforms 1/2 just have tracks going straight through and I'm unsure as to whether trains would be able to switch to the correct track direction further down the line?

Belperpete · 8 Mar 2019

You would have to go over a mile north, 3 signal sections out, before you could reverse back While the platform 3 to 7 lines converge just north of the station, the platform 1&2 lines carry on in isolation until St Mary's.

43055 · 8 Mar 2019

Jozhua said:
As much as I love the new Derby layout, I am surprised they didn't add in some more points for future flexibility! Platforms 1/2 just have tracks going straight through and I'm unsure as to whether trains would be able to switch to the correct track direction further down the line?

You can get to any platform to/from the north and any of 1 to 4 from Birmingham/Stoke and any of 3 to 7 from Nottingham/London. Last Saturday/Sunday Cross country was using platform 1 for services to and from the North with the southbound services crossing all the way out at Breadsall while platform 2 was being used for terminating Reading services.

Belperpete said:
Agreed. However, taking as a sample between 0800 and 1400 today, seven of the reversals are scheduled to be platformed as you suggest, while five are platformed the other way around. There is no logic to it that I can see, it appears totally random which way round they are platformed.

The recent works at Ambergate Junction highlighted the short-comings of the new layout at Derby, with not only the Nottingham - Birmingham/Cardiff trains, but also the NE-SW services also having to use platforms 3 and 4, as these are now the only platforms that can be used by services reversing between Willington and Long Eaton. Every time I caught a train from Derby during the works, I saw services from Birmingham being held outside the station waiting for a platform.

It is totally random but the general idea is the following:
xx08 Nottingham - 4A
xx10 Birmingham - 3A
xx37 Cardiff - 3A - 4A in the afternoon
xx40 Nottingham 4A - 3A in the afternoon
xx42 Crewe - 3B

The main problem for the south end is the amount of room between the platforms and London Road Bridge in for the lines to join as if any new connection between the opposite direction and just platforms 2 or 5 would be quite tight space and the speed limit would possibly something like 15 mph from before the remodeling. That said though it might be possible to extend platform 2 towards the south a bit and create a small bay of around 3 cars in length if platform 3 was shortened a bit. It would certainly help in the morning peak where some EMT services have to shunt between platforms and could potently be used by the Crewe services in the Day.

Belperpete · 8 Mar 2019

xx37 Cardiff - 4A in the afternoon
xx40 Nottingham 3A in the afternoon
xx42 Crewe - 3B
The problem with this platforming is that if the Cardiff is late for any reason, that delays the Nottingham from leaving, which in turn delays the Crewe behind it. Two minutes doesn't give much time for the Nottingham to depart, clear the scissors junction, the signaller to then set the route for the Crewe, and for the platform staff to despatch the Crewe. Even when the Nottingham leaves on time, it is tight.

xx37 Cardiff - 3A
xx40 Nottingham - 4A
xx42 Crewe - 3B
This allows the signaller to set the routes out for both the Cardiff and Nottingham trains in parallel. As soon as the Cardiff has left, the signaller can set the same route again for the Crewe to follow it. And there is 5 minutes between the Cardiff and Crewe trains, giving greater resilience in case the Cardiff runs slightly late. I really don't understand why the platforming isn't always scheduled like this.

43055 · 9 Mar 2019

It would make more sense to have it that way all day. I commonly get the 1642 to Crewe back and it has been delayed by the Nottingham a few times.

nottinghamcity · 14 Mar 2019

I agree that when the north lines are blocked, the reversals become an issue on 3/4 (1 & 2 being out of service) that said, when it works, which is most of the time it is literally poetry in motion!

grumpyoldman01 · 11 Apr 2019

Assuming XC services stay more or less the same as now, when the new Abellio EMR services are introduced Derby will generally see 17 arrivals and departures each hour; two northbound XCs will use platform 1, their southbound equivalents platform 2, there will be six reversals in platforms 3/4, a Matlock and two EMR Sheffields platform 5, and their southbound equivalents in platform 6. This leaves the terminating Norwich service.

The track layout would allow this to use platform 7; inbound, it could cross from the down to the up at Way & Works Junction, then take the Derby Pilot Line into 7. Outward, it would follow the same route in reverse, but without crossing over at Way & Works. However, although the Sectional Appendix shows platform 7's face as being available for restricted use, the pilot line itself - which is the track which serves platform 7's face - is shown by a broken line, and therefore is not available for use by regular passenger services.

As platform 7 would seem to be a useful place to turn-round the Norwich service, does anyone know what would be required to make platform 7 suitable for regular passenger use? Is it just a "paper exercise", or would some physical interventions be necessary?

civ-eng-jim · 11 Apr 2019

It's restricted for passenger use as there is "no flank protection" for platform 7.

When working on the scheme I asked the signalling team to elaborate but all I got was a generic answer about what flank protection was rather than to the specific scenario here at Derby.

There may be issues with errant vehicles running onto the pilot line from Etches park and the Fuel&Inspection line.

edwin_m · 11 Apr 2019

Is there trapping on the lines that lead from Etches Park to the pilot line? If not, it would be one reason (there could be others) not to allow passenger use on the pilot line.

Belperpete · 1 Aug 2019

Passing through Derby station today, I noticed that work to complete the canopy on platforms 4 & 5 appears to have started at long last. Pile of canopy supports in a compound at the end of the platform, and paving slabs lifted ready to install them.

civ-eng-jim · 1 Aug 2019

Ah, good news. I'll have a gander this afternoon.

edwin_m · 1 Aug 2019

As of yesterday at least one of the Y-shaped supports had been installed on the platform 5 side.

syorksdeano · 1 Aug 2019

Belperpete said:
Passing through Derby station today, I noticed that work to complete the canopy on platforms 4 & 5 appears to have started at long last. Pile of canopy supports in a compound at the end of the platform, and paving slabs lifted ready to install them.

I was going to ask about this the other day but forgot.

Anyone know why it has taken them so long to finish?

civ-eng-jim · 1 Aug 2019

syorksdeano said:
Anyone know why it has taken them so long to finish?

Access (or lack of) no doubt. They've only recently been finishing off the follow-up tamping for the scheme.

Bald Rick · 1 Aug 2019

civ-eng-jim said:
Access (or lack of) no doubt. They've only recently been finishing off the follow-up tamping for the scheme.

The last follow up tamp is usually a year after a renewal job, so I don’t think so!

rower40 · 2 Aug 2019

rower40 said:
I commute in on 1D53 each morning (0825 from Willington into platform 4), and when I alight, the platform starting signals of both platform 3 and 4 are sometimes green - with 1D53 routed to Nottingham, and 1V05 routed to Birmingham from platform 3 on the Up Tamworth Slow line.

No longer. 1V05 now gets routed onto the DOWN Tamworth Slow line, meaning 1D53 has to wait for it to leave.
Why? Because ARS (or signaller's Assistant, or some other system) is now in use, and
a) the Timetable Planners haven't got the detailed knowledge needed, and
b) the Signallers are not intervening to smooth things along

Other evidence for ARS being in use is:
a) On other stretches of line, (as viewed on OpenTrainTimes map), the routes are being set to exactly maintain 2 greens ahead
b) the routes past the Sunnyhill loops are no longer left in "auto", but release after each train.(*)

EDIT (*) - "were", not "are". Seems they've put these routes back into "auto", as it causes fewer delays if ARS isn't 100% on-the-ball.

civ-eng-jim · 2 Aug 2019

Bald Rick said:
The last follow up tamp is usually a year after a renewal job, so I don’t think so!

I don't think it's anywhere near that long! For run of the mill S&C renewals sites it's usually a tamp a week after, then it's monitored for a bit (re-tamped if necessary) but then handed over to maintenance within about 12 weeks. Derby will have only have taken longer to re-tamp on account of it's size and limited access.

edwin_m · 2 Aug 2019

It's over a year since the first part of the work started, so some new track may already have been in place for that long.

Bald Rick · 2 Aug 2019

civ-eng-jim said:
I don't think it's anywhere near that long! For run of the mill S&C renewals sites it's usually a tamp a week after, then it's monitored for a bit (re-tamped if necessary) but then handed over to maintenance within about 12 weeks. Derby will have only have taken longer to re-tamp on account of it's size and limited access.

My jobs usually had a 52week follow up planned; although to be fair it was rare that they needed it.

swt_passenger · 2 Aug 2019

With respect to the remaining canopy sections, is it possible that the remaining sections have to be tailored to the platform curvature rather than being mass produced, and the fabricator had to wait until the exact “as built” dimensions were available?

Just a random thought though...

edwin_m · 2 Aug 2019

swt_passenger said:
With respect to the remaining canopy sections, is it possible that the remaining sections have to be tailored to the platform curvature rather than being mass produced, and the fabricator had to wait until the exact “as built” dimensions were available?

Just a random thought though...

I'd guess it was de-risking the blockade by not having another set of contractors tripping over everyone else while doing something that wasn't critical to getting the station up and running.

Belperpete · 30 Aug 2019

edwin_m said:
I'd guess it was de-risking the blockade by not having another set of contractors tripping over everyone else while doing something that wasn't critical to getting the station up and running.

That is my recollection of what was said at the time - the roofing contractors were turfed off-site at short notice in order to recover the schedule. It would certainly explain the state that they left the end of the canopy in, and the Heath Robinsonish platform lighting beyond the canopy. I find it hard to believe that anyone would have planned such an arrangement.

grumpyoldman01 · 31 Aug 2019

A short video clip showing work completed thus far on the canopy at the west end of platform 4/5

HOOVER29 · 31 Aug 2019

Derby station has had an unfinished look about it for years.
Not knocking the current layout.
Best it’s looked for years.

Derby Resignalling - 22 July - 7 October 2018

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