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Ticket jargon cuts...

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exbrel

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hi,
I see the Rail Delivery Group have got the train companies to cut a amount of jargon off tickets, on 1.1 million routes, such as permitted routes only, London terminals and route direct, that could cut a bit of this forums work load...
Sorry about posting it here but I thought this is where it gets sorted out.
 
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30907

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hi,
I see the Rail Delivery Group have got the train companies to cut a amount of jargon off tickets, on 1.1 million routes, such as permitted routes only, London terminals and route direct, that could cut a bit of this forums work load...
Sorry about posting it here but I thought this is where it gets sorted out.
Can you link to the source please, as I think this is a recycled announcement and is just throwing up different questions/problems.
 

exbrel

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hi,
sorry for not putting a source, it was on msn news on the internet, it says it was put on/reported 18hrs ago. and says these changes come into effect next week...
 

embers25

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https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2019/469775885-2019-08-02.html

" The industry has been removing jargon since February 2017. The latest batch of new tickets for 101,000 routes will be available when searching in advance from 11 August and will become effective for travel from 8 September. This will mean 1.1 million tickets have had jargon cut overall."

The removal of "any permitted" is ridiculous and how will you determine whether it means the old "route direct" which could be blank, or "any permitted" that could also be blank. i can see guards getting awkward with this.
 

yorkie

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hi,
I see the Rail Delivery Group have got the train companies to cut a amount of jargon off tickets, on 1.1 million routes, such as permitted routes only, London terminals and route direct, that could cut a bit of this forums work load...
.
It increases our workload; here is just one example of the problems they have created: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-just-a-dot-in-lieu-of-any-permitted.151670/

I could easily spend an hour telling you about other problems this has caused.
 

plymothian

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There has to be something in lieu of the text "any permitted" and the "." has been chosen. bit that doesn't make it any clearer.
 

Hadders

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Replacing 'Any Permitted' with '.' is a nightmare. Consider a journey from my local station (Stevenage) to London. Trains are operated by GTR and LNER. You can buy a ticket to travel on any train or LNER only (which is actually a little but cheaper but far less frequent).

Before the removal of jargon the ticket machines would show the two options as:

Any Permitted
LNER Only

Now the same screen shows:

.
LNER Only

How is this reduction in jargon helpful to passengers. It just causes confusion and I strongly suspect passengers end up buying the LNER Only ticket thinking it's the only one available.
 

EastCoastway

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To be honest, routing is a complicated business and some people don't even know what company they are travelling with. Most people can't even read their own ticket because it's complicated. The jargon should be replaced with clear english of where the ticket is valid via OR a link to the National Rail website with the validity of the ticket, much like the restriction codes having www.nre.co.uk/a1 for example. That said most people understand what any permitted means compared with a name of a company like Southern Only or the like...

TBH we should begin the whole business with doing away with Super Off Peak tickets because they are a mess.
 

mmh

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That said most people understand what any permitted means compared with a name of a company like Southern Only or the like...

That seems unlikely. "Route: Any Permitted" might be clear to people who already understand the system, but it's awful to anyone else. It's railway gobbledygook disguised as plain English.

It really means: the whole monumentally complicated concept of a Permitted Route
In Plain English: Any route is permitted

Obviously "." is utterly ridiculous as a replacement. I don't know how you could best re-word "any permitted" though!
 

yorkie

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TBH we should begin the whole business with doing away with Super Off Peak tickets because they are a mess.
Feel free to create a new thread with your proposals.
Obviously "." is utterly ridiculous as a replacement. I don't know how you could best re-word "any permitted" though!
"Any reasonable" route?

They won't do that because many reasonable routes are not permitted routes!
 

Hadders

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TBH we should begin the whole business with doing away with Super Off Peak tickets because they are a mess.

Okaaaay. A Weekend Super Off Peak Day Travelcard from Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 is £11.90 with a railcard discount (routed '.' ;) :lol:) Please do let us know what this complicated, jargon riddled fare should be replaced with and how much it is likely to cost.
 

mmh

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Okaaaay. A Weekend Super Off Peak Day Travelcard from Stevenage to London Zones 1-6 is £11.90 with a railcard discount (routed '.' ;) :lol:) Please do let us know what this complicated, jargon riddled fare should be replaced with and how much it is likely to cost.

That's a really simple one to, err, simplify. Call it a Weekend Day Travelcard. Having looked at the restrictions on it, there are no time ones, so any mention of "off peak" or "super off peak" is a prime example of railway gobbledygook. Everyone knows what Weekend means though.
 

PeterC

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That's a really simple one to, err, simplify. Call it a Weekend Day Travelcard. Having looked at the restrictions on it, there are no time ones, so any mention of "off peak" or "super off peak" is a prime example of railway gobbledygook. Everyone knows what Weekend means though.
Knowing the ability of the public to misunderstand even the most obvious statement there will be a few who will somehow read that as valid for the whole weekend but I agree that it would be a serious improvement on the original.
 

yorkie

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That's a really simple one to, err, simplify. Call it a Weekend Day Travelcard. Having looked at the restrictions on it, there are no time ones, so any mention of "off peak" or "super off peak" is a prime example of railway gobbledygook. Everyone knows what Weekend means though.
I am not sure if @EastCoastway meant the product should be re-named or abolished, but if anyone has any proposals for change it is probably best in a new thread.

Anyway a lot of tickets used to have "Weekend" in the name, to give clearer indications of their validity, however most of these got renamed or withdrawn back when the first wave of 'Simpification' took place around 2008. This resulted in lots of different products all being called "Super Off Peak" , all with different terms and conditions, because it was felt that calling all these separate products the same name would be simpler.

It is highly unlikely that ATOC will admit that including "Weekend" in the name made things simpler, and that they were wrong to re-name such tickets in 2008.

https://www.atoctravelagents.org/clientfiles/File/Fares Made Simple Retail Brief - Phase 2 - Travel Agents 290708.pdf
Super Off-Peak groups current SuperSaver, Pricebuster, Evening and Weekend tickets. It also includes some former Saver fares

Any attempt by ATOC/RDG to "simplify" fares should be viewed with extreme caution and suspicion; and if anyone recommends "simplifying" fares, challenge them on what price do they propose any new product would cost. If assurances that the good value products we have today are not given, then the proposals should be rejected.

No changes should ever be made that result in fare rises above inflation, in my opinion. Others are welcome to have an opposing view and I will agree to disagree with such views.
 

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LNW-GW Joint

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The trouble is that "Route: Any Permitted" (or worse, ".") tells you nothing whatever about the TOC(s) you can travel with.
There should be a standard place on the ticket for "Operator" as well as "Route".
And Network Rail should list the operator on the station PIS, as airports do.
 

swt_passenger

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The trouble is that "Route: Any Permitted" (or worse, ".") tells you nothing whatever about the TOC(s) you can travel with.
There should be a standard place on the ticket for "Operator" as well as "Route".
And Network Rail should list the operator on the station PIS, as airports do.
Agree entirely. Two separate fields on the ticket should have been introduced the first time someone wanted to display an operator restriction, it’s been a complete fudge ever since.
 

yorkie

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Agree entirely. Two separate fields on the ticket should have been introduced the first time someone wanted to display an operator restriction, it’s been a complete fudge ever since.
This would benefit train companies; at present it's one or the other. With your proposals, they can restrict both the route and the TOC! I'm not sure how it would be simpler, either.

If you can think of a way this could work, please do feel free to post your proposals but it would be best in a new thread.
 

Clip

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Anyway a lot of tickets used to have "Weekend" in the name, to give clearer indications of their validity, however most of these got renamed or withdrawn back when the first wave of 'Simpification' took place around 2008. This resulted in lots of different products all being called "Super Off Peak" , all with different terms and conditions, because it was felt that calling all these separate products the same name would be simpler.

Yeah i seem to remember a plethora of Weekender tickets years ago - the GNER one was valid friday to Sunday wasnt it? Pretty daft to remove that name for sure as it done exactly what it said it did
 

PeterC

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Terms like Off Peak and Super Off Peak are confusing because they are not applied consistently. One person can catch a train in the evening rush hour while another with the same description on the ticket cannot because they started at a different station.

Cue a pompous reply about ticket codes, except that they mean SFA to the public, they are for railway internal use.

I just wish I could think of an alternative, apart from applying the "peak / off peak" designation to trains rather than tickets.
 

yorkie

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Terms like Off Peak and Super Off Peak are confusing because they are not applied consistently. One person can catch a train in the evening rush hour while another with the same description on the ticket cannot because they started at a different station.
Feel free to make recommendations on how to solve that, but again any suggestions on how to resolve it are best placed in a new thread.
Cue a pompous reply about ticket codes, except that they mean SFA to the public, they are for railway internal use.
I do not know what this means. I assume this is some reference to different products, each with different product codes, being given the same name (which there was a big drive towards, back in 2008).
I just wish I could think of an alternative, apart from applying the "peak / off peak" designation to trains rather than tickets.
That would result in huge fare rises for many people, but to fully explore the impact, please post this idea in a new thread so we can explore it fully, as this is a fairly drastic proposal which requires a dedicated thread. Thanks.
 

Hadders

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I just wish I could think of an alternative, apart from applying the "peak / off peak" designation to trains rather than tickets.

Be very careful what you wish for.

I assume that under your plan the 16:30 from Euston to Glasgow be a 'peak train'. It calls at Penrith at 19:32 so would someone using it to go to Carlisle need an Anytime ticket to travel on this train? Seems a bit daft to me.
 
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