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Flooding Disruption 31 July/1 August

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furnessvale

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Which map is this? If you mean the extent of the severe flood warning, if there was a large release of water from the dam it certainly wouldn't stay in Whaley Bridge.

Do we actually know the Hope Valley line is closed because of the Whaley Bridge situation rather than some other flooding or landslip?
Two maps are in existence. The severe flood warning map AND a second map which I only seem to be able to view via Facebook and I cannot save a reference to display it here. This second map describes the area at risk should the dam burst and the effects of that burst peter out to normal flooding on the low fields below Furness Vale.

Neither map shows any threat to the Hope Valley line.

I appreciate that Northern and EMT are now showing flooding elsewhere as well as the dam threat.
 
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STANDISH

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If you check RTT nothing is moving through the area. There is a train service from Manchester to Marple. In the East freight is running from Hope towards Sheffield. The only freight train running from Peak Forest/Tunstead is to Brigg Sidings according to RTT.
 

unlevel42

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The reason why there are no trains between Sheffield and Stockport:
The High Peak Canal is immediately above and parallel to the Chinley-Hazel Grove section of the Stockport route between the Newtown and Disley area
If the reservoir had to be emptied quickly the canal could over top and flow into the tunnel and cuttings very quickly.
 

Tomnick

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The reason why there are no trains between Sheffield and Stockport:
The High Peak Canal is immediately above and parallel to the Chinley-Hazel Grove section of the Stockport route between the Newtown and Disley area
If the reservoir had to be emptied quickly the canal could over top and flow into the tunnel and cuttings very quickly.
Seems a reasonable concern, especially in the dip just below Newtown. I'd understood that the big concern was the risk of scour affecting the various crossings of the River Goyt in and around New Mills though, hence the job being stopped to/from New Mills Central too - given the remarkable strength with which the river's flowing, again, it's entirely reasonable.
 

scrapy

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Trains not running on the route is entirely sensible. I don't get why any of this stops Northern running buses between Edale and Sheffield at least.
 

syorksdeano

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The reason why there are no trains between Sheffield and Stockport:
The High Peak Canal is immediately above and parallel to the Chinley-Hazel Grove section of the Stockport route between the Newtown and Disley area
If the reservoir had to be emptied quickly the canal could over top and flow into the tunnel and cuttings very quickly.

The latest is that they are going to completely drain the dam, and that water has to go somewhere.

They are trying to control the water released, and whilst it's an inconvenience to people safety has to come first
 

gazzaa2

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Pleeeeease can we get a new line between Sheffield and Manchester?

It does show that it's more needed than Manchester-Leeds where there's already multiple lines (although the Victoria service should be electrified and more carriages for the TPE).

It's one two-track line and it needs upgrading. Same with the road system.
 

Robertj21a

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Trains not running on the route is entirely sensible. I don't get why any of this stops Northern running buses between Edale and Sheffield at least.

Has it stopped them ?

Have you asked about it ?
 

muz379

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Of course worth bearing in mind that if Network Rail was to allow trains to run on what seem to be unaffected lines and there is flooding , which in railway terms only has to be above the railhead to stop movements road conditions might make it impossible for Pway to get on site to clear any flooding , or allow any other staff on site to assist evacuating any stranded trains . Entirely sensible in my view .
 

Tomnick

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Of course worth bearing in mind that if Network Rail was to allow trains to run on what seem to be unaffected lines and there is flooding , which in railway terms only has to be above the railhead to stop movements road conditions might make it impossible for Pway to get on site to clear any flooding , or allow any other staff on site to assist evacuating any stranded trains . Entirely sensible in my view .
Although there was some bad flooding at Edale earlier in the week (immediately following a period of very intense rainfall), it's very much unaffected by this particular event so there should be no barrier in that respect to running trains. Going there means going to Chinley (-ish) to reverse though, and the lack of Peak Forest freight suggests that that's a no-no at present. Running as far as Hope (to reverse at Earles) shouldn't be a problem though. I suspect that it's more to do with the logistics of having the route entirely resourced from the Manchester end that stop that though.
 

Class 170101

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How do TPE resource it though? Could they not run all stations to Hope instead and resource from Sheffield / Cleethorpes?
 

edwin_m

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How do TPE resource it though? Could they not run all stations to Hope instead and resource from Sheffield / Cleethorpes?
TPE need all the trains and crews they can get to run as many Sheffield-Manchester as they can on the long diversion via Huddersfield. All the stations out to Hope have a nearby bus service from Sheffield, although I can't vouch for ticket acceptance.

As to the canal, doesn't it overspill into the Goyt if levels get too high?
 

30907

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Two maps are in existence. The severe flood warning map AND a second map which I only seem to be able to view via Facebook and I cannot save a reference to display it here. This second map describes the area at risk should the dam burst and the effects of that burst peter out to normal flooding on the low fields below Furness Vale.

Neither map shows any threat to the Hope Valley line.

I appreciate that Northern and EMT are now showing flooding elsewhere as well as the dam threat.

I am sorry I didn't make myself clear. Water damage can also be caused by a substantial increase in volume such as would happen after a dam burst (thankfully, not all the water wouldn't flood Whaley Bridge). The results can be seen in bridge collapses at Abington on the WCML, Glanrhyd on the Central Wales and many others, and scouring of embankments.
I don't know the area as well as I presume you do, but I assume NR engineers do?

BBC NW news has just posted a map showing that, in the event of a dam burst, there would be an impact as far as Stockport.
 
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Class 170101

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TPE need all the trains and crews they can get to run as many Sheffield-Manchester as they can on the long diversion via Huddersfield. All the stations out to Hope have a nearby bus service from Sheffield, although I can't vouch for ticket acceptance.

Arguably I would terminate at Huddersfield and put passengers on the 4/5tph between Manchester and Leeds so units and crews could be provided.
 

Tomnick

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How do TPE resource it though? Could they not run all stations to Hope instead and resource from Sheffield / Cleethorpes?
I’m sure that TPE or EMT could resource it (the latter certainly shouldn’t have a problem as they can’t divert via Huddersfield) but I’d imagine that they’d want paying to do it, and I’d imagine in turn that Northern would rather just not bother!
 

edwin_m

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EMT should probably be using the units not working north of Sheffield for strengthening the Crewe-Derby. But probably aren't.
 

unlevel42

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There is a TPE service from Sheffield to Manchesters via Huddersfield ever day except Sunday and Monday.
Terminating one of the current trains from the east at Huddesrfield would allow one direct train from Sheffield to Manchester via Horbury junction
 

LowLevel

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EMT should probably be using the units not working north of Sheffield for strengthening the Crewe-Derby. But probably aren't.

Crewe - Derby has all been strengthened to load 2 or 3 actually.
 

43055

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EMT should probably be using the units not working north of Sheffield for strengthening the Crewe-Derby. But probably aren't.
They have been. Derby to Crewe today is formed of two 153+158 combos and a 156 on its own. I got the 156 this afternoon and that was ample surprisingly. What didn't help EMT is the closure led to a 158 or two being out stabled at Stockport overnight which has later been moved to Crewe.
 

HotelNovember

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It’s worth pointing out that the suspension of services (Hope Valley/Buxton) was ordered by the Police, rather than the TOC’s/NR doing it themselves.

And due to a number of road closures, Rail replacement buses are unable to operate in some areas.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I haven't been able to find much evidence of TPE working Manchester-Sheffield services via Huddersfield.
They seem to be just operating Sheffield-Cleethorpes, with advice to travel via Leeds between Manchester and Sheffield.
NRE says disruption may last until the end of Monday, but TPE's web site only suggests until Sunday.
 

Tomnick

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I haven't been able to find much evidence of TPE working Manchester-Sheffield services via Huddersfield.
They seem to be just operating Sheffield-Cleethorpes, with advice to travel via Leeds between Manchester and Sheffield.
NRE says disruption may last until the end of Monday, but TPE's web site only suggests until Sunday.
There were a couple yesterday evening towards Sheffield (one booked via Huddersfield, the one before that booked via Romiley but diverted) and one from Sheffield (via Huddersfield vice Stockport) but not much, if anything, today, presumably not least because of the lack of paths in the daytime!
 

Greybeard33

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Trains not running on the route is entirely sensible. I don't get why any of this stops Northern running buses between Edale and Sheffield at least.
And due to a number of road closures, Rail replacement buses are unable to operate in some areas.
It is puzzling that Northern has not at least arranged ticket acceptance on the service buses between Sheffield and Hathersage/Bamford/Hope. The Northern website implies that the roads to these villages are closed, which is certainly not the case.
 

AndyPJG

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This has attracted attention from over the pond. As a Boeing pilot, Juan Browne's YouTube blogs are a good source of info and industry intelligence on the 737 Max situation but, randomly, he's posted on Toddbrook now. Love his pronunciation of "Durrby Shyer"...
Not randomly, see all the very informative series of videos he did on the (major!) Oroville dam spillway collapse in California over the last couple of years.
Someone who doesn't do speculation but just finds out real and accurate information.

Edit: View
,
it was a tad bigger than this one.
 
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M60lad

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Is there an actual reason why rail replacements aren't being used to run some sort of replacement service between Manchester and Sheffield.

I know I think it was last year when there was engineering works closing the line from Sheffield-Manchester special express coaches and buses were used with one running to/from Airport and the other running to/from Piccadilly both running out of Sheffield via A57 to Ladybower then over to A628 so why isn't this happening this time?
 

sheff1

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It is puzzling that Northern has not at least arranged ticket acceptance on the service buses between Sheffield and Hathersage/Bamford/Hope. The Northern website implies that the roads to these villages are closed, which is certainly not the case.

NRE states "You may also use local bus services on routes 273, 274 & 275 between Sheffield, Bamford and Hope" but does not say that you can use rail tickets on those buses.

Additionally, NRE states "Trains are currently unable to call at stations between Strines / Chinley and Sheffield". Trains should be able to serve stations from, at least, Hope to Sheffield - the decision not to do so appears to be down to unwillingness rather than inability.
 

BHXDMT

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TPE will be operating an emergency timetable for the next 3 days.

Sheffield to Manchester every hour (xx:11), calling Meadowhall, Huddersfield, Slaithwaite, Marsden, Greenfield, Stalybridge and Manchester Piccadilly.
Manchester to Sheffield every hour (xx:17), calling at Stalybridge, Greenfield, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Huddersfield and Sheffield.

Basically merging the Sheffield onto a Huddersfield stopper.

Services from Cleethorpes will terminate Doncaster.
 
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