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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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johnw

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Who wants to travel to Corby? A northbound service every half an hour from Wellingborough and Kettering to either Nottingham or Derby is much more desirable.
 

700007

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Who wants to travel to Corby? A northbound service every half an hour from Wellingborough and Kettering to either Nottingham or Derby is much more desirable.
Corby is a town highlighted for major economic growth especially as it is one of the cheapest towns to buy a house with reasonable commuting time to London. The growth cannot take place without the railway. The population according to the census in 2001 was 53,400. By 2011 this had risen by nearly a whopping 20%, over 60,000. The railway station opening surely had a part to play in this. Come 2021 I can tell this will raise a significant amount again. The railway needs to cater to this growth and so a half hourly service will become justified over the length of this franchise.
 

TheBigD

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Who wants to travel to Corby? A northbound service every half an hour from Wellingborough and Kettering to either Nottingham or Derby is much more desirable.

Corby is a town highlighted for major economic growth especially as it is one of the cheapest towns to buy a house with reasonable commuting time to London. The growth cannot take place without the railway. The population according to the census in 2001 was 53,400. By 2011 this had risen by nearly a whopping 20%, over 60,000. The railway station opening surely had a part to play in this. Come 2021 I can tell this will raise a significant amount again. The railway needs to cater to this growth and so a half hourly service will become justified over the length of this franchise.


As someone who lives about 20 miles away and visits Corby about once a month, Corby is a town that is rapidly expanding. As I've posted before, most of the former ironstone quarries are/have been devoleped in to new housing estates (Priors Park, Little Stanion, Weldon etc), and more new housing around Oakley. The former Deanethorpe airfield site is also earmarked for housing. There's also been new road infrastructure, tha new A43 link for example, new warehousing and other infrastructure being built in and around Corby.

Whilst there are still social issues in some parts of the old Corby, the town has been on an up for the last few years and will continue. Its changing rapidly from the town that was decimated following the run down of the steel industry in the 1980's.

Once the half hourly service to/from London starts rail usuage will rise pretty quickly as more people relocate from London etc to Corby.
 
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hooverboy

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Corby is a town highlighted for major economic growth especially as it is one of the cheapest towns to buy a house with reasonable commuting time to London. The growth cannot take place without the railway. The population according to the census in 2001 was 53,400. By 2011 this had risen by nearly a whopping 20%, over 60,000. The railway station opening surely had a part to play in this. Come 2021 I can tell this will raise a significant amount again. The railway needs to cater to this growth and so a half hourly service will become justified over the length of this franchise.
corby's architecture has about as much appeal as that of luton....ie looks soviet/east german 60's throwback
the only reason it will expand is the shockingly high house prices of london and surrounding areas forcing people to commute further.Nothing at all to do with organic growth and development.

it's a soulless eyesore, just like luton but with crappier transport links(which are being improved)
actually dunstable is comparable. the quadrant shopping centre and main street parade are almost a carbon copy of demoralisation and disrepair.
 

700007

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corby's architecture has about as much appeal as that of luton....ie looks soviet/east german 60's throwback
the only reason it will expand is the shockingly high house prices of london and surrounding areas forcing people to commute further.Nothing at all to do with organic growth and development.

it's a soulless eyesore, just like luton but with crappier transport links(which are being improved)
actually dunstable is comparable. the quadrant shopping centre and main street parade are almost a carbon copy of demoralisation and disrepair.
It is hard to grow a town 'organically' in our day and age. Takes far too long in an 'impatient' economy that wants things done cheap and fast. So your best bet is find a run down or quiet town with decent existing infrastructure such as a major road link and rail station - if these are fitting, try fit these at a reasonable price if practical to do so and if there is a business case for it. Then grow your rail service from there. Corby, who started with an hourly diesel service half of the time as far as Kettering is now expanding to become a half hourly express electric service to London all day.
 

edwin_m

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It's not only about Corby. The electric service also caters for Wellingborough and Kettering passengers and for Bedford and Luton it provides an alternative to Thameslink. To some extent Corby is just a convenient place to terminate it.
 

EE Andy b1

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So is everybody happy about having more Hitachi IEP trains in about 2-3 years for the Midland Mainline?

The Tech is spot on for what's needed right now but please somebody at the very least get that interior right for passengers.
 

Jozhua

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So is everybody happy about having more Hitachi IEP trains in about 2-3 years for the Midland Mainline?

The Tech is spot on for what's needed right now but please somebody at the very least get that interior right for passengers.

I'm very happy about the trains, disappointed about their length!

I don't think the interiors will be that bad, especially compared to Pacer Benches, 3+2 northern with literally no legroom for people over 5ft, gross looking cross country and virgin seating that hasn't been cleaned for years and the current EMT HST offering with no head support to speak of! Maybe they'll make improvements though, considering the comfort standards failures on a lot of newer seats...
 

43096

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So is everybody happy about having more Hitachi IEP trains in about 2-3 years for the Midland Mainline?

The Tech is spot on for what's needed right now but please somebody at the very least get that interior right for passengers.
Happy? Neutral, I'd say.

All depends on the interior fit out, especially the seats. As every new long-distance train in this country since privatisation has failed to meet what I think is the required standard then I'm not holding out much hope.
 

EE Andy b1

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I'm very happy about the trains, disappointed about their length!

I don't think the interiors will be that bad, especially compared to Pacer Benches, 3+2 northern with literally no legroom for people over 5ft, gross looking cross country and virgin seating that hasn't been cleaned for years and the current EMT HST offering with no head support to speak of! Maybe they'll make improvements though, considering the comfort standards failures on a lot of newer seats...

All 5 car seems a pit stupid to me, have nobody learnt anything!

Yes i'm the same as you with our, sorry Northern's new Class 195s, not the best train out there but much better than anything Northern have had for thirty years. Far from perfect but will do a job but them seats just too firm but ok for an hour just.


Happy? Neutral, I'd say.

All depends on the interior fit out, especially the seats. As every new long-distance train in this country since privatisation has failed to meet what I think is the required standard then I'm not holding out much hope.

I'm not holding mine neither as no TOC management now seems to really care about what the passengers needs are, and it really does show.

Now the Class 222 i thought had pretty good seats especially compared to what was on offer in the 220/221 so maybe East Midlands will get it right.;)
 

cnjb8

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So is everybody happy about having more Hitachi IEP trains in about 2-3 years for the Midland Mainline?

The Tech is spot on for what's needed right now but please somebody at the very least get that interior right for passengers.
No! HSTs are non compliant and yet we keep them after the deadline. Why does the ECML and GWML get new compliant trains? Yes they are busier but the Midlands is a developing region and shouldn't be shoved down the list.
Mini rant over. ;)
 

EE Andy b1

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No! HSTs are non compliant and yet we keep them after the deadline. Why does the ECML and GWML get new compliant trains? Yes they are busier but the Midlands is a developing region and shouldn't be shoved down the list.
Mini rant over. ;)

Totally agree but new builds take time to build and test and fault find, normally in this day at least a year later than promised.

I would give East Midlands some of GWRs Class 80x s and order them something more appropriate for there longer distance Cornwall services with proper dining and shop facilities.

I would give East Midlands some of LNERs Class 80x s, and for LNER to keep some of the Class 91 (or ex Great Anglia Class 90s) and Mk4 DVT sets until LNER get some more new trains further down the line.

How would that suit?

I know it wouldn't happen, but hey what the hell.
 

Chester1

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All 5 car seems a pit stupid to me, have nobody learnt anything!

I agree that from an operational perspective the downsides outweigh the upsides and its a shame but it does make sense. The decision has clearly been made for financial reasons. The Rosco needs to be confident they will have suitable work for 25-30 years and its much easier with 5 coach rather than 9 coach sets. GWR and ECML have their own bi mode fleets and CrossCountry will probably be the next to order them. They are not suitable for the WCML. It does not leave many suitable routes left. HS2 will shake up MML services and further electrification could take place in the next 30 years.
 

Kettledrum

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If the new 5 car units almost always were to run doubled up in 10 coach formations, I'm sure people would be a lot happier. However, people are not convinced that sufficient 5 car units have been ordered to do this and are deeply suspicious that the operator will default to running single sets of 5 car units at a time. Where this happens at the moment, greedy operators often put their own financial profit well ahead of sensible levels of passenger comfort.

In the past, both XC and EMT have been seemingly quite happy to run jam-packed 5 coach trains, whilst leaving others parked in sidings.
 

Failed Unit

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If the new 5 car units almost always were to run doubled up in 10 coach formations, I'm sure people would be a lot happier. However, people are not convinced that sufficient 5 car units have been ordered to do this and are deeply suspicious that the operator will default to running single sets of 5 car units at a time. Where this happens at the moment, greedy operators often put their own financial profit well ahead of sensible levels of passenger comfort.

In the past, both XC and EMT have been seemingly quite happy to run jam-packed 5 coach trains, whilst leaving others parked in sidings.

I must admit sometimes I don’t get the railway. On the south of the route we have 12 car trains (Thameslink) carting fresh air about for the majority of the day for operational simplicity. (On a doo route) then mml will operate sets in multiple with wasted space (2 cabs) double crew etc. Surely they would be better ordering 9 car trains.

I suspect as you say - at least you can send half a train if the other half fails but not having full walkthrough trains is always a backwards set for passengers.
 

Jozhua

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I suspect as you say - at least you can send half a train if the other half fails but not having full walkthrough trains is always a backwards set for passengers.
To be fair, with a multiple unit I'd doubt if there was an issue the whole train would breakdown anyway! If it were an issue that stopped the whole train, then I doubt another discrete unit would be much help in the majority of cases! Not being able to walk through the trains is definitely a backwards step for passengers I 100% agree.

Having less capacity as well will mean less advance fares and less people in the Midlands who could benefit most from the prosperity of London being able to access it. They better show that they will run these as 10 car sets!

I think they might be keeping the 180 sets, so that brings us up to 37 5 car trains.
So that's 279 IC carriages before and 185 IC carriages after. Even with some space savings in the new 80X units, I don't see how there is going to be any increase in capacity.
 

samuelmorris

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Totally agree but new builds take time to build and test and fault find, normally in this day at least a year later than promised.

I would give East Midlands some of GWRs Class 80x s and order them something more appropriate for there longer distance Cornwall services with proper dining and shop facilities.

I would give East Midlands some of LNERs Class 80x s, and for LNER to keep some of the Class 91 (or ex Great Anglia Class 90s) and Mk4 DVT sets until LNER get some more new trains further down the line.

How would that suit?

I know it wouldn't happen, but hey what the hell.
I see where you're going with the GWR units due to the buffet and 5-car controversey but why should LNER have to retain some Mk4s, I don't see what that achieves? As far as I'm concerned replacing the HSTs at the very least with their own new stock on EMR is absolutely the right move. That said, I am part of the club that suspect the MML will be running mostly 5-car trains on the express services as a result of this undersized fleet order. Empty 12-car 700s passing 5-car 803(?) units with people stood huddled in the vestibules will make for an interesting dilemma. Perhaps the crowds that result will see people using Thameslink all the way to Bedford to change onto the fast services there. That would only serve to amplify people's complaints about the 700s' interior design being sub-optimal for longer distance use.

To be fair, with a multiple unit I'd doubt if there was an issue the whole train would breakdown anyway! If it were an issue that stopped the whole train, then I doubt another discrete unit would be much help in the majority of cases! Not being able to walk through the trains is definitely a backwards step for passengers I 100% agree.

Having less capacity as well will mean less advance fares and less people in the Midlands who could benefit most from the prosperity of London being able to access it. They better show that they will run these as 10 car sets!
I wouldn't - experience, especially with the 80x fleets, has shown that numerous faults with one unit will always carry through to the other. Never mind the fact that in the event of a sudden defect in the cab, you can't exactly operate the train from the other end anyway, there are still many single points of failure with coupled units.
 

Kneedown

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I would give East Midlands some of GWRs Class 80x s and order them something more appropriate for there longer distance Cornwall services with proper dining and shop facilities.

I would give East Midlands some of LNERs Class 80x s, and for LNER to keep some of the Class 91 (or ex Great Anglia Class 90s) and Mk4 DVT sets until LNER get some more new trains further down the line.

How would that suit?

Seeing as even the 802's would be woefully underpowered in diesel mode on the MML it wouldn't suit at all. The GW mainline is like a billiard table compared to the MML. What is required is a unit that will attain 125mph in diesel mode as fast as a 222, and it will take a new variant of the 80x design to do that.
 

Kettledrum

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I must admit sometimes I don’t get the railway. On the south of the route we have 12 car trains (Thameslink) carting fresh air about for the majority of the day for operational simplicity. (On a doo route) then mml will operate sets in multiple with wasted space (2 cabs) double crew etc. Surely they would be better ordering 9 car trains.

I suspect as you say - at least you can send half a train if the other half fails but not having full walkthrough trains is always a backwards set for passengers.

.....unless there is a secret plan to run 2x5 car units out of St Pancras and then split on-route - perhaps at Leicester. This could enable increased frequencies (and speed) to places like Nottingham, Loughborough, Chesterfield and Sheffield. However, I'm not convinced that enough units have been ordered to do this.
 

Failed Unit

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.....unless there is a secret plan to run 2x5 car units out of St Pancras and then split on-route - perhaps at Leicester. This could enable increased frequencies (and speed) to places like Nottingham, Loughborough, Chesterfield and Sheffield. However, I'm not convinced that enough units have been ordered to do this.
Which would be a brilliant plan. They could even send one to Sheffield avoiding both Nottingham and Derby if they were to split trains. But I know splitting and joining on route isn’t liked anymore. Not sure why works in many places. Yes you get late portions. But that happens now on Norwich - Liverpool where the are just dropping a set.
 

EE Andy b1

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I see where you're going with the GWR units due to the buffet and 5-car controversey but why should LNER have to retain some Mk4s, I don't see what that achieves? As far as I'm concerned replacing the HSTs at the very least with their own new stock on EMR is absolutely the right move.

My thought was with LNER and the Mk4s is that they are compliant for 2020 onward and still have a good use, and also East Midlands would then have compliant Class 80x s available now, because as much as the Midland Mainline needs and should benefit from new rolling stock we are talking 2-3 years before these would be available for passenger use. Look at all the delays with new stock, every single type having plenty problems and delays upto a year and more. In fact LNER have probably had the better roll out having learnt from GWRs problems.
Perhaps when the new builds were ready then the sets could be moved back to LNER for there use.
Keep the GWR Class 80x s as they need something better as i said for Cornwall, they would have to bring back HSTs for a while!!:E That would go down well.

Seeing as even the 802's would be woefully underpowered in diesel mode on the MML it wouldn't suit at all. The GW mainline is like a billiard table compared to the MML. What is required is a unit that will attain 125mph in diesel mode as fast as a 222, and it will take a new variant of the 80x design to do that.

I would agree with you there, but we are talking 3 years away at best i reckon and this could have been an interim move and the Class 222 sets perhaps could be split and all made into 9 or 10 car units and still keeping there 125mph abilities.:D Happy Days ish ;)
 

edwin_m

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I wouldn't - experience, especially with the 80x fleets, has shown that numerous faults with one unit will always carry through to the other. Never mind the fact that in the event of a sudden defect in the cab, you can't exactly operate the train from the other end anyway, there are still many single points of failure with coupled units.
I think the concern is more about failures in the depot that mean the two units never get coupled up in the first place.
 

irish_rail

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Seeing as even the 802's would be woefully underpowered in diesel mode on the MML it wouldn't suit at all. The GW mainline is like a billiard table compared to the MML. What is required is a unit that will attain 125mph in diesel mode as fast as a 222, and it will take a new variant of the 80x design to do that.
Errrr I wouldn't call the London to Penzance route a billiard table which is where the 802s the original poster suggested mml get currently ply their trade. I think you'll find the South West is a fair bit hillier than the Midland mainline. The idea he proposes is a good one. 5 car 802s are completely unsuitable for 5 hour journeys, but I think will be fairly good for 2 hour trips on the mml.
 

mt4958

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Operationally the plan for the Hitachis sounds similar to the way South Eastern run the 395s on the other side of St P. 3 platforms running a mix of 2x5 and 1x5 (rather than 2x6 and 1x6). + 1 platform but mostly for Corby.
 

43096

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Errrr I wouldn't call the London to Penzance route a billiard table which is where the 802s the original poster suggested mml get currently ply their trade. I think you'll find the South West is a fair bit hillier than the Midland mainline. The idea he proposes is a good one. 5 car 802s are completely unsuitable for 5 hour journeys, but I think will be fairly good for 2 hour trips on the mml.
Beyond Reading that route isn’t 125mph; the MML is a 125mph railway.
 

edwin_m

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Errrr I wouldn't call the London to Penzance route a billiard table which is where the 802s the original poster suggested mml get currently ply their trade. I think you'll find the South West is a fair bit hillier than the Midland mainline. The idea he proposes is a good one. 5 car 802s are completely unsuitable for 5 hour journeys, but I think will be fairly good for 2 hour trips on the mml.
Beyond Reading that route isn’t 125mph; the MML is a 125mph railway.
More power might allow hills to be climbed at higher speeds, but speeds on the most hilly bits west of Newton Abbot are restricted by curvature in particular. A higher-powered train is unlikely to improve much on timings.

Also I don't understand why the length of the set makes it more or less suitable for the length of the journey. The length of the set should depend on the number of people that want to use it, and other things being equal places further apart have fewer people travelling between them.
 

hooverboy

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My thought was with LNER and the Mk4s is that they are compliant for 2020 onward and still have a good use, and also East Midlands would then have compliant Class 80x s available now, because as much as the Midland Mainline needs and should benefit from new rolling stock we are talking 2-3 years before these would be available for passenger use. Look at all the delays with new stock, every single type having plenty problems and delays upto a year and more. In fact LNER have probably had the better roll out having learnt from GWRs problems.
Perhaps when the new builds were ready then the sets could be moved back to LNER for there use.
Keep the GWR Class 80x s as they need something better as i said for Cornwall, they would have to bring back HSTs for a while!!:E That would go down well.



I would agree with you there, but we are talking 3 years away at best i reckon and this could have been an interim move and the Class 222 sets perhaps could be split and all made into 9 or 10 car units and still keeping there 125mph abilities.:D Happy Days ish ;)
well they need to get rid of the 4 car sets for sure!
could they not just order some extra carriages from bombardier for the 22x fleet? would seem quite a bit cheaper.

ie we make 22x a routine 6 car or 9 car fleet.add a bit of SDO for st p when almost joined up.
no need for 150m extra platform wellingborough/kettering/corby/market marborough....actually I have never seen platforms at these stations at full capacity like I have for leicester/bedford/luton
6 car will work OK for the most part here( ok 5 standard+1 first)
 

Kettledrum

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Operationally the plan for the Hitachis sounds similar to the way South Eastern run the 395s on the other side of St P. 3 platforms running a mix of 2x5 and 1x5 (rather than 2x6 and 1x6). + 1 platform but mostly for Corby.

So other than ordering the 5 car units, does anyone know what the operational plan is yet?
 
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