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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Highland37

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Most refurbishment programmes speed up after the first few are completed. That seemed to be happening here, with the gap between sets getting smaller each time. Though that does seem to have fallen flat with this gap between sets 6 and 7.

Again, the data don't support that. It may *seem * that way, but it isn't.

What's the average time per set?
 
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sprinterguy

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Isn't it? When was the first delivery and what's the average been since then?
The first set was delivered on 25th August 2018, and a total of six sets have been delivered in 11 months. The rate of delivery has accelerated since the start of 2019 though:

HA26: 25/08/18
HA25: 11/01/19
HA24: 21/03/19
HA23: 04/05/19
HA22: 27/05/19
HA21: 03/07/19

So since the delivery of HA23, delivery has been averaging one set per month.
 

Highland37

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The first set was delivered on 25th August 2018, and a total of six sets have been delivered in 11 months. The rate of delivery has accelerated since the start of 2019 though:

HA26: 25/08/18
HA25: 11/01/19
HA24: 21/03/19
HA23: 04/05/19
HA22: 27/05/19
HA21: 03/07/19

So since the delivery of HA23, delivery has been averaging one set per month.
So what is the overall average for the programme?
 

RLBH

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So what is the overall average for the programme?
62.4 days; the trend is still downwards, even with the uptick for the latest unit. HA23 to HA22 was 23 days, HA22 to HA21 was 37 days, which is an average of 30. Exactly what you'd expect for monthly deliveries.

Nobody's expecting deliveries to take place on the 1st of each month, realistically. If the next set doesn't show up in the next week or so, that might be cause for concern, but not really worth worrying about yet.
 

59CosG95

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62.4 days; the trend is still downwards, even with the uptick for the latest unit. HA23 to HA22 was 23 days, HA22 to HA21 was 37 days, which is an average of 30. Exactly what you'd expect for monthly deliveries.

Nobody's expecting deliveries to take place on the 1st of each month, realistically. If the next set doesn't show up in the next week or so, that might be cause for concern, but not really worth worrying about yet.
Perhaps it might be a case of putting deliveries of new trains on hold during the Edinburgh Festival?
 

CJSwan

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One refurbished set (numbered unknown to me) sitting Clayhills in Aberdeen for a few days now,

HA21 has had a coach locked out of use due to a door fault on 31/07, 01/08 and today taken out of service after the same coach being locked out of use again this morning, with the 16:28 Edinburgh to Aberdeen ultimately being cancelled due to continuing door faults on the same set.

No other refurbished sets out in service today.
 

59CosG95

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What has the Festival got to do with it.
No time to train more staff on the refurbished sets, because more staff are required to work additional services to transport the huge number of passengers travelling to Edinburgh for the Festival, perhaps?
Or to prevent introducing new stock in this busy period for fear of said new stock breaking down, with a ton of angry punters on it?
LNER have held off introducing more than one Azuma diagram into Scotland for the same reason.
 

Cashew

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No time to train more staff on the refurbished sets, because more staff are required to work additional services to transport the huge number of passengers travelling to Edinburgh for the Festival, perhaps?
Or to prevent introducing new stock in this busy period for fear of said new stock breaking down, with a ton of angry punters on it?
LNER have held off introducing more than one Azuma diagram into Scotland for the same reason.
But you can still produce the refurbished sets regardless if they are put into service straight away or not.
 

Highland37

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OK so to date, the average is about 2 months per set with it recently being faster. Neither figure will bring Scotrail anywhere close to having the right number of refurbished sets available for December or anything close to the intended date of full introduction.
 
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Highland37

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No one outside this bubble cares.

I think you are too much in the bubble. A lot of people care. Particularly those on holiday who now have 50% less bike space, those with seat reservations and those who are now avoiding the railway. It is this head-in-the-sand mentality that is a huge problem. If you really do think that the general public don't care then it is worrying for us all.
 

haggishunter

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No one outside this bubble cares in the slightest.

You're the one in the bubble. I've taken to the WHL to avoid the HML, well like quite a few people I know I now just don't bother going to the station. Get in my vehicle and drive from A to B or X to Y. Long distance trains with seat reservations either entirely absent or wrong / duplicated, full and standing to the point where some people haven't even tried to board (though my experience of that has been on the WHL this summer). Toilets expiring either due to lack of water or full retention tanks part way through journey and/or stupid queues for the toilet.

I guess that is one way to deal with overcrowding, instead of providing a service fit for purpose provide one so awful people give up and we have negative modal shift from rail.
 

47271

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Just to step into this polarised discussion.

The general public care that they're having a bad experience. They don't care, or understand, whether it's on HST, 170 or the Hogwarts Express.
 

EE Andy b1

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The general public care that they're having a bad experience. They don't care, or understand, whether it's on HST, 170 or the Hogwarts Express.

Exactly right!
The general public just want a right time departure, right time arrival, with a seat would be nice in comfort even at a ridicules price, and a toilet when needed.
They could not care less what type of train it is, and why should they. It should be about the experience but that is getting well diluted.
 

Killingworth

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Exactly right!
The general public just want a right time departure, right time arrival, with a seat would be nice in comfort even at a ridicules price, and a toilet when needed.
They could not care less what type of train it is, and why should they. It should be about the experience but that is getting well diluted.

Which is why many are happy to travel in Pacers as long as they turn up on time and have space to sit down! Don't think they'd go down too well on the HML or WHL though. You could have worse rolling stock to complain about - not much consolation.
 

Highland37

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Aye no one cares at all. Inverness Courier today.
 

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Northhighland

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Just to step into this polarised discussion.

The general public care that they're having a bad experience. They don't care, or understand, whether it's on HST, 170 or the Hogwarts Express.

Correct. What annoys though is the promise of Scotland’s best ever Railway. It is simply not being delivered. If you have to stand leaving Edinburgh/ Glasgow/Perth heading to Inverness that is incredibly annoying. If you are on a train with no trolley that is annoying. Because for Less money you could have taken the bus where you do get a seat and a cup of tea for significantly less outlay.

The railway industry across the UK constantly over promises and under delivers.

HST introduction is just one clear example of improvements promised and not delivered. Just about everywhere in the UK it is the same old story.

That is what annoys passengers.
 

Clansman

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Another journey on the refurb a couple of days ago and the same old issues cropping up re bike space, seating capacity - which is particularly noticable in first class nowadays, even on a Classic. As said by myself and others many a time on here, the 2+4s are crumbling in their adequacy to cope with demand on nearly all fronts (and on every route), and it won't be long before the same issues arise on the 2+5s, given a good few services on the high density classics are full with the odd standing also. If ScotRail have any sort of forsight, they really do need to get their act together quickly and come up with a way forward, because this is definitley not sustainable.

The seating layouts are great and offer possibly the best standard class experience in the UK, but they are hemmoraging capacity and if they are going to remain this way then ultimatley it needs to be compensated with an extra carriage. As for bike storage, it is greatly dissappointing (as already highlighted time and time again) that power cars can only be used end to end. Around 4 people tried to ge their bikes on at Pitlochry, but there were already two bikes stored in the existing provision. This wouldn't occur on a double or triple 158 which can handle 8 and 12 bikes comfortabley.

I'm beggining to wonder what the long term solution is. With the current seating layout and provisions for catering etc, I'd have a stab at guessing that to cope long term, every set will need lengthening to 6 coaches, with the additional sixth coach comprising of half seating and half luggage/bike/skiis storage area, and converting the existing bike provision for trolley storage. Basically like an extended TGS but with a public door at the end of it. If not that, then every set lengthened to 5 coaches (which is already being muted will be happening anyway) and ScotRail and Wabtec find a way to accomodate public access into the power cars for storage. Dare I say a new locomotive with this sort of accomodation could be better, and it would even keep the Mk3s running longer into the future if they had bi-mode specs - though I won't get ahead of myself. Anything less, is only going to act as a stop gap and will on serve to temporarily pacify the issue before it too can no longer suffice. The whole programme is well intentioned, extremely welcomes, and was badly needed (how we coped with 170s for all these years I've no idea), but it seems to go half in half out on a great deal of aspects, and it's already showing, and showing big time.

I think the amount of times I've ranted, along with other members who use these trains on a regular basis, says it all. Something needs to be done, and done soon, otherwise ScotRail and fellow passengers will face even worse consequences than those that were meant to be solved with the whole programme in the first place!

[/RANT]
 
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47271

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Aye no one cares at all. Inverness Courier today.
I agree that the current state of the HML service is deplorable, but I'm not sure that anyone on here said mainstream passengers don't care about the quality of their journey.

Very few will care about the train type - the woman in the article doesn't say 'I thought I was getting an HST because I know that I would've had a chance of having a seat reservation, but instead it was a 170 and it was a shambles as usual'. Which I'm sure is what you or I think when a 170 rolls up.

The nearest equivalent I can think of is that I know nothing whatsoever about buses, but if I was booked on the Citylink to Edinburgh and a local bus turned up instead I would know that I was having a bad experience on the A9. But I wouldn't have a clue about what model either the intended or substitute vehicle was.
 

Highland37

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You make a good point. A few years ago Stagecoach were frequently rostering local type buses from Portree to Fort William and it quickly got attention as it was a poor experience. The railway can't really compete on that route so their position was more robust.

Contrast that with a family member's situation tomorrow. They will not take the train and have chosen to take an inconvenient, in terms of onward connections, Citylink service from Inverness to specifically avoid the train. That is where we are when members of the public will actively work to avoid the train.

But the route is very busy right now as the Highlands are full of tourists so the lack of capacity shows and it appears everyone is happy to support the train. Not so in Edinburgh.

In terms of what to do, get as many refurb HSTs in service asap but accept that they are a stop-gap until a new order is placed.
 

Northhighland

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You make a good point. A few years ago Stagecoach were frequently rostering local type buses from Portree to Fort William and it quickly got attention as it was a poor experience. The railway can't really compete on that route so their position was more robust.

Contrast that with a family member's situation tomorrow. They will not take the train and have chosen to take an inconvenient, in terms of onward connections, Citylink service from Inverness to specifically avoid the train. That is where we are when members of the public will actively work to avoid the train.

But the route is very busy right now as the Highlands are full of tourists so the lack of capacity shows and it appears everyone is happy to support the train. Not so in Edinburgh.

In terms of what to do, get as many refurb HSTs in service asap but accept that they are a stop-gap until a new order is placed.


Scotrail can’t even get the refurbs all out and working. One set been sitting in Inverness for weeks presumably for training. They have been training staff for about a year how long does it take?

Last day I was in Edinburgh two refurb sets lying in Haymarket maintenance depot.

Surely by now they could have at least had a predictable reliable HST service in place? At least stop the worst of the overcrowding problems.

Unpopular as it is to say this it is simply a case here that Scotrail really don’t care too much about passengers.
 

Waverleystu

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With the rate of progress at Wabtec delivering refurbished HST’s failing surely the Scottish government must be looking at bi-mode class 800/802 as a replacement for the programme? With the EGIP nearing completion the focus must switch to electrification to Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness using bi-mode and use HST to fill the gap until delivery of 800/802 over the next 3-4 years. Rail travel outside the Central belt in Scotland is an utter disgrace and cities as mentioned above deserve better
 

47271

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With the rate of progress at Wabtec delivering refurbished HST’s failing surely the Scottish government must be looking at bi-mode class 800/802 as a replacement for the programme? With the EGIP nearing completion the focus must switch to electrification to Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness using bi-mode and use HST to fill the gap until delivery of 800/802 over the next 3-4 years. Rail travel outside the Central belt in Scotland is an utter disgrace and cities as mentioned above deserve better
There's a thread for that already:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/in-scotland-use-class-800-series-instead-of-hsts.185912/page-2
 

Highlandspring

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If everything can be sorted out in time an HST will be running to Fort William (and possibly Glenfinnan) on Sunday 18th August to celebrate the 125th anniversary of the opening of the West Highland Line.
 

haggishunter

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If this project completes, then looking forward what will likely be the constraining factor on the remaining operational life expectancy of the HSTs? Will it be the power cars or the Mark IIIs? IE the power cars will be done in 8 to 10 years, but the coaches could be good for another 20 or vice versa.

There seems to be a fair bit of evidence of suppressed demand, while already services which are fairly regularly seeing HSTs are getting busier. One of the reasons for going with short HSTs was that neither of Class 80Xs or 68 and Mark Vs for example could match the timings short HSTs could attain (which is necessary for the proposed HML timetable). So while the HSTs can be lengthened, is it the case that beyond 2+5 the acceleration and timing advantage over other options is lost?

On the HML increased frequency will address some of the capacity, but is that an option on any other of the HST operated routes?
 
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