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Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid
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MetroCar4058
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I'm sure the plan was for the TPE train to leave one unit at Piccadilly.
Class 170101
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I guess Northern aren't relying on the Class 769s being available. Also wasn't there a suggestion elsewhere on this bosrd that performance on diesel wasn't as good as hoped?
Greybeard33
Established Member
769s would be on electric between Bolton and Victoria, so would have similar performance to a 319. The Southport to Stalybridge service will be the hourly stopper between Bolton and Salford Crescent, so the 769's acceleration could cut journey time significantly and improve timetable resilience on the Bolton line.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Right. After the morning peak, it looks as though the Cleethorpes services will have exclusive use of Platforms 9 and 10 at Piccadilly and use them alternately. So it will be possible to drop a unit at Piccadilly and pick it up on the way back in the same platform, an hour later.
In the morning peak the Cleethorpes services get an entire Airport platform, so both 185s will be able to go to the Airport.
Oddly, Sowerby Bridge and Mytholmroyd have only recently been added to the Sunday service on York - Blackpool.
They also lose the Sunday link to Manchester - not sure how long they've had that (my memory of this line only goes back 33 years).
That's halving the service on a Sunday and reducing it by a third during the week at a rapidly growing stations, which seems odd.
This also means the first Westbound services on Sundays will be 90 minutes later, with the last Eastbound ones 50 minutes earlier.
The first service to Leeds will only be slightly later, but the last one back will be 80 minutes earlier.
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Daniel Wake
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It's interesting to note there is now a peak time Sheffield to York via Pontefract Baghill train at 0715 from December. That means it's now commutable to go from Pontefract to York etc.
splashoutradio
Member
Good spot, sir. There does appear to be a few interesting changes in this timetable. Will be interesting to see if any more come to light before December
Greybeard33
Established Member
All these services have now been loaded. The Liverpool - Airport - Crewe stoppers and the Blackpool - Hazel Groves are pretty much unchanged.
The current northbound only calls at Gatley and Burnage are dropped from the Airport to Blackpools, with the turnaround time at the Airport increased from 7 to 10 minutes.
The Airport to Barrow/Windermere service takes over the northbound calls at Burnage, which gives this station a more even 2tph service pattern in both directions. But the southbound from Barrow/Windermere, which currently calls at both Burnage and Gatley, drops the Gatley call.
The TPE Airport - Redcar Central services take over the Gatley calls in both directions, so Gatley still gets 2tph as specified in the Northern TSR.
Edit: The Airport - Blackpool service is booked into Platform 1A at the Airport, so could be strengthened to a 6-car 331 formation without platform length issues.
Class 170101
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Currently showing as 07:24 from Sheffield. However it arrives York at 08:48. The last departre of the day from York is 17:15. Would be sufficient to do a day's work?
I noticed that the Leyland call has been dropped on the Blackpool to Hazel Grove services yet not on the Hazel Grove to Blackpool services. Is there a specific reason for only 2 services a day to call towards Hazel Grove yet 16 call towards Blackpool?
If you work 35 hours plus lunch and within 5 minutes of the station, certainly.
Was this in the franchise spec, or has there been lobbying from nearby offices?
In both the current and December timetables, the Blackpool North - Manchester Airport calls at Leyland southbound instead of the Blackpool North - Hazel Grove. Presumably this is to give a more even headway as the Hazel Grove service leaves Preston only nine minutes before the Manchester Victoria service which also calls at Leyland.
Could it be in preparation for TPE running via the Calder Valley during the Transpennine upgrade works? Freeing up paths into Manchester?
That's a total guess, but logically that will mean changes to existing services on that line.
Staffordian
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An unfortunate feature of the revised times for Bridlington-Hull-York and Sheffield-Pontefract-York services is that afternoon departures from Sherburn-in-Elmet towards York will be at 1241 (ex Brid), 1242 (ex Sheffield), 1541 (ex Brid), 1640 (ex Sheffield) and 1641 (ex Brid).
Is this actually feasible ? Or should we expect a few adjustments to these times between now and December ?
Is this actually feasible ? Or should we expect a few adjustments to these times between now and December ?
Flyingsprinter
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I see that the Leeds to Southport service is ending. Wasn’t that a franchise commitment? Not fussed that it’s ending as I don’t think many from the calder valley stayed on past Salford.
Southport-based rabble-rousing and pig-headed insistence on having a service to Piccadilly means that the Alderley / Stalybridge trains are being extended to Southport while the Blackburn and Leeds services will terminate at Wigan.
bramling
Veteran Member
Is that so unreasonable? I don't know how the flows compare, however *if* many people from Southport wish to travel to Piccadilly (or Oxford Road) for one reason or another, versus only a small minority of users wishing to go towards the Calder Valley, then surely there's a worthwhile case for a direct train if it avoids having to change trains or use Metrolink?
If people are used to an established direct train, which appears to have been removed more for railway operational reasons than because there’s significant local demand for the new destination, then I’d probably be a little peeved too - especially with Manchester being quite a large city centre and the distance from Victoria to the south side of the city centre being quite significant.
Obviously this falls down if significant numbers *are* remaining on the Leeds service through Manchester.
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faltskog36abba
Member
I can understand some of your comments -But wasn't Salford crescent built for interchange?. Manchester city centre isn't as large as you think, You can walk between Victoria to Piccadilly or oxford road in 15 minutes. There are also free buses outside each station to connect you to where you want to go- There isn't enough room for every service to go to Piccadilly.
bramling
Veteran Member
These points are quite valid, however if you were a Southport line user who wanted to go to Piccadilly, why would you want to bother with all this hassle potentially ten times a week for a MF commuter, for the sake of a direct service to somewhere few really want to go, either on a daily basis or perhaps at all?
That wasn't the Southport argument though. The arguments were 1. We need a direct link to the airport (which is utter rubbish, so when that didn't work they moved onto... ), 2. Commuters need a direct link to the south of Manchester.
Even if 2. is true - which I don't buy, because the number of people changing at Wigan or the Crescent to get on a Picc service is not exactly huge - they've shot themselves in the foot because the via Bolton services they're getting to replace the Calder Valleys are slower, more crowded, and since May have also been less punctual.
As a Wigan - Manchester commuter, it's excellent for me because starting the Leeds in Wigan means it'll be quieter and should be more reliable, and therefore offer a pleasent, and fast, link into Victoria.
ButI still think the Southport campaign stinks of turkeys promoting Christmas.
I've appended the 2017/8 of the Northern Connect stations. I'd been led to believe that all Northern Connect stations would see all services stopping.
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Glenn1969
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Sowerby Bridge was listed as a Connect station but Mytholmroyd wasn't. But we don't know right now if Connect is still happening
Swings and roundabouts. The parochial nature of Northern England's railways in a nutshell. Same can be about direct rail link to Manchester Airport which is held aloft as some sacred carrot.
Don't sympathise with Northern as they are a poorly run franchise but it must be frustrating when people complain about lack of direct services to Manchester Piccadilly / Victoria.
They are 15 minutes walk. There is a free bus service between both stations around the city centre. Furthermore there are two direct trains per hour. Additionally there is a tram link if the <15 minute walk to work on the other side of town is too much.
Northern shouldn't be pandering to them - as others have said - it's impossible to run all services through both Victoria / Oxford Road / Piccadilly. Pragmatism is required.
bramling
Veteran Member
Isn’t pragmatism exactly what they’re now doing, having found a solution which allows one service to go to one and another service to the other? Albeit with extra stops which isn’t exactly ideal it has to be said, but if a majority of users on this line value the convenience then seems fair enough to me.
The same applies on parts of Southern and Southeastern with many destinations having a service to both the city and west end. Obviously here passenger volumes are several orders of magnitude higher, but reliability could probably be heavily improved by rationalising the journey opportunities, but with what degree of backlash?
quantinghome
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Why wouldn't it? The costs are already sunk. All that remains once the new trains are delivered is to do some marketing to boost the regional routes. It might be that timetabling conflicts etc. mean the network isn't quite as extensive or the service as fast as planned, but that doesn't mean the whole thing stops.
You're right, but the early anticipation isn't really showing up. New trains, staffed Northern Connect stations, faster services should all be being showcased now....it's gone so quiet on Northern Connect I have my doubts it will come to fruition in December.
Changing at Salford Crescent tends to involve a 20 to 30 minute wait for a connecting service. As the Castlefield services are infrequent they tend to be overcrowded at peak times so there’s always the possibility you won’t be able to board. Then there’s the total lack of any facilities (OK there’s some benches...) at the re-built windswept Salford Crescent... Victoria to South Manchester is a long way. As a regular traveller I’m sure you’re aware of all this though. I don’t think existing West Lanc’s commuters asking for the direct services to Castlefield they are used to is as unreasonable as you keep insisting.
Anyway with Northern’s repeated cancellations of station stops and sometimes whole services beyond Wigan I’m amazed anyone from West Lanc’s is still attempting to use the service... Leaving peak Southport services at Wigan I’m sure these a decrease in through passengers now. “I’m using my car from next week” conversations are regularly overheard...
quantinghome
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I have no more information than anyone else, but Northern cannot afford another botched launch.
If I was them I wouldn't be marketing Northern Connect yet. I'd wait until all the new trains are in service and teething troubles ironed out, then get the timetable working with faster services. And then, and only then, would I launch Northern Connect as a brand.
Jamesrob637
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Extra Sunday services should take priority. To be fair, Northern does already have a pretty good Monday to Saturday timetable, at least in my neck of the woods.
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