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Why are Northern allowed to cancel Sunday Services seemingly at will?
- Thread starter Puffing Devil
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RailUK Forums
True - how many years ago? They also merged Great Western, Thames Trains and Wessex Trains (and others).
This is best asked here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/railway-history-nostalgia.160/
I certainly agree that the information should be consistently available, and that more information should be made available through open data sources, but that's for another topic too!
The Leeds to Manchester Vic train IS stopping at all stations.
Source: my train to Leeds is currently sat at Smithy Bridge nearly 20 minutes late because the turnaround is too tight in Manchester so the delays are just racking up.
Better, however, than no service at all for folk at these stops.
Source: my train to Leeds is currently sat at Smithy Bridge nearly 20 minutes late because the turnaround is too tight in Manchester so the delays are just racking up.
Better, however, than no service at all for folk at these stops.
Yes they are calling now but morning trains were running through these four stations non-stop.
The guard on the 13.25 from Littleborough had a hand-written Special Stop Order. Surely there are daily notices at crew signing-on points, which crews are supposed to read when reporting for duty. Would these not have included a requirement to make these additional calls?
Eccles1983
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Unless you are handed a stop/not to stop in person then you follow the docket as printed.
No matter what notice they put up.
Ignoring the bits that got split out into Arriva Trains Wales and TPE.
No notices are generally for safety related matters not timetable changes. If a timetable change is too late for diagram to be changed then a special stop order will be issued.
Another Sunday with no trains on between Victoria to Preston and a replacement bus service. Just the occasional Airport to Blackpool service running between Preston and Manchester so far, but only with limited stations served.
There was a member of Northern staff at Leyland (not the regular ticket office staff) talking to some pretty unhappy passengers this morning who basically admitted they have given up on the line for the next few months, but were hoping to get the Airport services going a bit mor reliably, albeit only for limited stations. His advice was not to travel on Sundays where possible. Suffice to say, his honesty wasn’t well received.
There was a member of Northern staff at Leyland (not the regular ticket office staff) talking to some pretty unhappy passengers this morning who basically admitted they have given up on the line for the next few months, but were hoping to get the Airport services going a bit mor reliably, albeit only for limited stations. His advice was not to travel on Sundays where possible. Suffice to say, his honesty wasn’t well received.
The Leeds - Man Vic trains are supposed to be calling additionally at Smithy Bridge, Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston, but, after last Sunday's performance, I would not have risked going for a train.
Llandudno
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Shambles - How are they allowed to get away with it?
Can you imagine McDonalds/Tesco/Hospital A&E closing on Sundays because of a lack of staff!
Bus operators running subsidised services on Sundays are not allowed to cancel buses at will, but a tax payer funded rail operator gets away with it week in week out!
Can you imagine McDonalds/Tesco/Hospital A&E closing on Sundays because of a lack of staff!
Bus operators running subsidised services on Sundays are not allowed to cancel buses at will, but a tax payer funded rail operator gets away with it week in week out!
Eccles1983
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Tesco's only open for 6 hours on a Sunday.
A&E's stop admittance regulary at weekends.
Poor comparison.
causton
Established Member
I don't think they are allowed... what are they supposed to do if there is no staff, the train can't drive itself!
Generally places outside of the railway run by having much less strict rules than working on the railway, for example I had to work 6am - 3am the next morning at a chain retailer then had to be back in at 8 to open the shop back up. I think for obvious reasons you don't want safety critical staff doing that.
philthetube
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If there were conditions imposed on existing drivers there would be serious disputes, if they were only for new drivers and were imposed, I don't think current drivers would have the same appetite to lose money.
I can see a situation arising when the next time the tender is changed staff are not automatically transferred over but are required to sign new contracts.
dk1
Veteran Member
Aslef/RMT would never allow traincrew to do 'split shifts' or have unpaid breaks either thankfully.
dk1
Veteran Member
We have been here so many times. Most (my TOC included) would not be allowed to employ drivers at a particular depot on differing contracts. The traincrew agreements between management & staff side are there to be adhered too by both.
Is there a reason why the Airport trains call additionally at the local stations (Blackrod, Adlington & Leyland) during the morning/evening Monday-Saturday cannot call additionally instead of the unreliable replacement bus services? The amount of times I have ended up walking from Blackrod to Horwich Parkway or vice versa is getting ridiculous.
Honestly, no idea. Some Northern staff I have spoken to in the past believe they can, but Northern have decided not to. My local MP has raised it with Northern and was given the explanation that even at weekends, they are unable to reschedule due to issues with the paths.
If any of our planning experts have any insight either way in to this, I would be interested to know.
A frivolous comparison but somewhat correct.
Northern are contracted to run a certain amount of services on Sunday as part of Train Service Requirements agreed as part of the Franchise Agreement. A lack of drivers or inability to agree with unions Sunday working hours (or a combination of both) does not excuse them from that legally-binding requirement.
I suspect it will come to a head soon and the future of the Northern franchise will be decided with the 195s and 331s are in service.
I empathise. This is something that needs to be looked at going forward given many of Northern's routes now operate on a 'skip stop' basis. If a train is cancelled and the next service is only 10 minutes behind, why not make an additional call? The problem is frequently described on here: too many players and a complete lack of vertical integration/thinking that means the victim is almost always the passenger. This is not sustainable going forward.
I'm not an expert but there seems to be a reasonable gap between the previous service between Preston and Leyland (towards Manchester) and also on the line between Blackpool and Preston so could leave Blackpool a couple of minutes earlier if required though this wouldn't be essential as they have 8 minutes between Horwich and Bolton in the timetable- it can be done in this with a stop at Lostock. Then between Bolton and Salford Crescent it is currently booked to take 12 minutes when it in reality only takes about 9 and ends up waiting in Salford for a while. You can easily fit in a couple of extra stops in this time. They have done it before and it managed to be on time at the Airport despite the previous few trains having been cancelled (07/07/2019)
I'm no expert, but TUPE usually requires staff to be moved over to a new franchisee/employer on the same pay and conditions. I suspect that some form of legislation would be needed to get around that. Whilst, personally, I would support such a move (as I would support the simple imposition of a take it or leave it deal on staff to bring in modern working practices) I know I'm seriously in the minority on this forum.
I find all this Northern bashing so frustrating living on a route that once was Northern but is now majority TPE.
It sounds to me like they are trying to handle the situation in a managed way. TPE are cancelling random services left right and centre recently due to train crew shortages but very little if anything is said.
Whilst far from ideal, I'd much rather know in advance that I'll be on a bus than the situation in TPE land of finding out with little notice in some cases that I've now got an extra hour to wait to get to where I need to be with no sniff of a replacement bus in sight.
It sounds to me like they are trying to handle the situation in a managed way. TPE are cancelling random services left right and centre recently due to train crew shortages but very little if anything is said.
Whilst far from ideal, I'd much rather know in advance that I'll be on a bus than the situation in TPE land of finding out with little notice in some cases that I've now got an extra hour to wait to get to where I need to be with no sniff of a replacement bus in sight.
The route between Preston and Manchester Airport used to have TPE services before the change of franchise and these were the most punctual and reliable services (major disruption was rare as were cancellations and late-running) Now all services are run by Northern and persistently subject to planned cancellations on Sunday's, replacement bus services which run late or fail to turn up, unplanned cancellations, overcrowding, cancellation of stops whilst on the train; this is happening all the time. It isn't just 'planned cancellations' and definitely is not well managed.
Admittedly, I have noticed an increase in disruption on TPE journey check recently however with Northern there are usually at least 50 cancellations or delays listed at any given time (this doesn't include planned cancellations). Personally, I prefer 'random cancellations' to 'planned cancellations' as usually with the on-the-day (random) ones there is another service within the hour whereas the 'planned cancellations' with Northern often mean waiting for a late and slow replacement bus or walking to another station to wait for a connecting train service.
Obviously in an ideal world enough staff would be contracted to work all timetabled services (with spare to cover staff sickness or holidays) but that doesn't seem likely anytime soon.
Well living on a route where Northern are the only operator AND they are not announcing these changes in at the moment, I'd take your service over mine to be honest. I'd love any train, not just an hour wait. (Which is my current regular Monday-Friday disruption thanks to Northern making services non-stop at the drop of a hat thanks to delays) A bus service that makes a 50 minute journey over 2 1/2 hours isn't really much of a managed solution, especially when alternative options might be practical if Northern really were managing things.
As for those managed solutions, well a few come to mind:
- Making the operating Blackpool - Airport services all stations
- Running the bus service schedule to connect with the remaining Bolton services (they don't at present in either direction, usually 30 mins wait minimum)
- Allowing for season tickets and Northern tickets to be accepted by TPE via Preston, which they currently don't and have no plans to do so
At the moment Northern's solution is to advise passengers to not travel. At least TPE haven't thrown in the towel and pretty much given up at running services on whole lines. So forgive those of us who are seen to be 'bashing' Northern for their current shambles of a service. I suspect your frustration at us isn't a patch on our frustration at not being able to rely on even a most basic of service.
Several cancellations today on the Furness Line and Cumbrian Coast today, including some airport services - you know those where several extra were reintroduced and Northern seemed surprised that loadings were lower than they had anticipated. Apparently the usual staffing issues. Meanwhile people continue to drive to the airport, hire airport minibuses or get over to Oxenholme somehow by road because they cannot rely on the trains, especially at the weekend. Today again, those who do attempt to travel by train will have had stressful experiences, possibly to the point of missed flights.
To be fair , we dont know what if anything is going on between Northern and the DFT in the background in relation to this or other situations where the franchise commitments are not being met .
It could be that there are heavy penalties being imposed , but if you have a load of depots with no drivers that want to do additional Sundays then you cannot magic traincrew resources out of thin air .
Unfortunately the situation is not as simple as just giving staff a take it or leave it contract . For starters , every Sunday you bring a driver in for they have to have another day of the week off instead , and there are simply not the resources to be able to do this in a structured way from day 1 , what is needed is a smooth and orderly transition over a protracted period to ensure that resources are brought into place to bring Sunday working inside the working week , it needs to preserve and if im honest improve staff morale and imposition of a new contract would demolish staff morale . As well as that , there would still be an issue with Sunday working always being less popular thus meaning that the availability of volunteers to come in as overtime to cover sickness , annual leave and other uncovered work is never going to be as forthcoming as volunteers for rest day working on weekdays . The same situation occurs with Saturdays but there are additional spare and standby resources as well as longer average turn length on Saturdays to maximise the resources available .
Anyhow , one other big reason why the imposition of contracts idea is just plain dumb is as follows . The franchise has a lot of training requirements particularly for drivers, with increases in complements of drivers to meet new service frequencies , new traction , and there is still existing legacy route and traction knowledge deficits to be addressed . A work to rule because you have just imposed a set of detrimental changes on the grade could really put paid to any service improvements or reliable train service for some time to come . And drivers wouldn't even lose a penny doing it . Of course you might also get a group of brave drivers , and lets face it all it would take is one larger depot or a few smaller ones who do not sign the new contracts and then you have no train service over a large part of the franchise area . How long would that be allowed to continue do you reckon ? I dont think it prudent to bring options to the table which could result in seriously intolerable side effects , because should those effects be realised the company would have to back down and then look like fools both in the eyes of staff and the public .
dk1
Veteran Member
Well not quite. They would just need every other Sunday off & can therefore work every free day should they so wish. As long as they have the 14th consecutive turn off & usually the lates to earlies changeover week Sunday is perfect for this as it's quite rare to be booked or even be able to catch a turn which adheres to Hidden.
These services used to be actually reliable- it was so rare that a train was cancelled/severely delayed; now it is almost a shock when a train runs the full route reasonably punctually.
A friend was told at the help point at Blackrod to walk to Chorley and catch a train to Preston from there if no bus turns up (this was as a train from the Airport to Preston passed through the station slowly. The walk from Blackrod to Chorley should take 1:45 and I thought it unfair being told to wait for the next train or walk to Burnage if my train was cancelled last minute at Mauldeth Road.
By bring in for I mean book a sunday for . With the topic being bringing them inside the working week for the west drivers at Northern I was looking at it from the POV of the company trying to do that . So if they bring the current booked Sundays inside the working week but keep the number of rest days and length of working week at the same current levels (It is expected that these would increase in line with new services) you now have to give every driver booked to work a Sunday another day off . In order to ensure that you have a feasible train plan these new days off have to be balanced to ensure the same resources every other day .
I suppose radically you could just put the sundays on top of the existing contracted days and extend the working week , but then you will find issues retaining drivers when every driver with any experience applies for jobs at other TOC's . And will almost certainly have a massive dispute with ASLEF if you imposed a contract of that type .
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