Buses that change number or say its connection guaranteed but same vehicle.

Ken H · 4 Aug 2019

This is prompted by https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/unnecessarily-long-bus-routes-in-the-uk.187153/ long routes thread

The 555 in Cumbria timetable indicates that its a connection at kendal but a footnote says:-

To comply with driver’s hours regulations, these buses connect at Kendal. The connection is guaranteed, through fares are available and passengers can stay on the bus which operates through.

the 580/581/582 Skipton-Lancaster is one through bus. But it changes number at Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale. and the timetable says

Connections between services at Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale are guaranteed - no need to change buses

I know there is a 50Km cutover between GB rules and EU drivers hours rules but this seems to be a bit of a scam to make it seem a service is shorter than it actually is so GB rules apply.

And its confusing for the passenger.

RailUK Forums

robk23oxf · 4 Aug 2019

The most extreme one I can think of is the X5 from Oxford to Cambridge which is split into around 4 or 5 different sections! Others I can think of are the 51 Cheltenham-Swindon which is split at Cirencester, S6 Oxford-Swindon which is split at Faringdon and the 49 Trowbridge-Swindon which is split at Devizes. The route from Stroud to Bath is the 69 between Stroud and Tetbury and then the 620 onwards to Bath although it's the same vehicle all the way through.

b2311e · 4 Aug 2019

Arriva's Chester to Holywell/Rhyl is like this
https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/wales/services/11-11a---holywell-to-chester/?direction=outbound

Services 11 and 11A connects with services 11F, 11G, 11M or 11X in Holywell for journeys to/from Rhyl, through tickets are available, passengers do not need to change buses

There's a service 12 which starts at Rhyl and ends in Llandudo, though no through service

EnviroExplorer · 4 Aug 2019

Stagecoach Lincolnshire 56 Lincoln - Horncastle - connects for Skegness
Stagecoach Midlands X18 Coventry - Stratford - connects for Evesham

Pretty much any of the mammoth bus routes still with us are contenders for this thread - 555 as mentioned, First XL Peterborough-Norwich, Arriva X18 Newcastle-Berwick

Alexbus12 · 4 Aug 2019

575 from Bolton to Wigan, which then does a 362 to Chorley. Can stay on as long as the ticket allows

43055 · 4 Aug 2019

High peaks Transpeak was split at Derby, Matlock and Buxton when it ran between Nottingham and Manchester. A copy of the 2012 timetable shows TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4 next to each section of the calling places (TP1 being Nottingham to Derby ect) but the buses just show TP on the front. Since the route being shortened I don't think the route is split any more.

causton · 4 Aug 2019

In the Hertfordshire area, the Uno 635 does this and so does the Arriva Greenline 724.

padbus · 4 Aug 2019

Stagecoach SW Service 4 (Exeter-Axminster Millwey Rise) splits at Axminster Station.

vlad · 4 Aug 2019

This isn't quite the same thing.

The First PMT 3A/4A is a circular route (Hanley - Newcastle - Talke - Kidsgrove - Tunstall - Hanley). It changes its number about halfway round the route, presumably so as not to confuse people in going the long way round.

Statto · 4 Aug 2019

Quite a few routes in North Scotland, 10 Aberdeen-Inverness has 4 sections, changeover at, at Inverurie-Huntly-Elgin & Nairn, X98 Inverness-Thurso has 5 sections, changeover at Invergordon-Tain-Bora-Dunbeath & Wick

Busaholic · 4 Aug 2019

As long as the DRIVERS stay within regulated hours, I can't see why it can be described as a scam. From the passenger point of view it makes sense and helps to allay any uncertainties. I can see possible issues on remuneration for free passes from LAs, particularly when LA areas are crossed, but that's not a concern of the passenger.

Tetchytyke · 4 Aug 2019

Ken H said:
this seems to be a bit of a scam to make it seem a service is shorter than it actually

Not really. It's a pragmatic solution to unintended consequences of the law.

And if we're going to list all the examples, we'll be here all night.

peterblue · 4 Aug 2019

Far too many examples to name.

quarella · 4 Aug 2019

A problem that existed a while ago was Journey Planning systems showing them as 2 separate journeys. One I was aware of was the Stagecoach 172/72 Aberdare - Porthcawl which changed number at Bridgend. Traveline Cymru would show the 2 routes with a 3 minute connection at Bridgend. Not something I would want to risk if I was not aware it was a through service. I have just checked and it offers a direct bus from Aberdare - Porthcawl.

Andy Pacer · 4 Aug 2019

And dont forget a bus service doesn't have to have a service number anyway!

Aictos · 4 Aug 2019

In Peterborough you had the Citi 2 from Paston to Bretton Centre via the City Centre and South Bretton which then becomes the Citi 3 to Stanground via North Bretton and the City Centre - it’s the same bus but changes of drivers happen at Queensgate.

The same happens in reverse btw, I think this answers the OP question?

Andy Pacer said:
And dont forget a bus service doesn't have to have a service number anyway!

Indeed, Luton Busway you have A, B, C and Z to ID the bus services in use.

Arriva operates the A which becomes the Z at the terminus and the Z which became the A at the terminus.

The same bus is in use though.

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Not really. It's a pragmatic solution to unintended consequences of the law.

And if we're going to list all the examples, we'll be here all night.

peterblue said:
Far too many examples to name.

Absolutely right. There are loads of examples across the country and I hope we don’t have endless posts with every example. There are SEVEN different examples from Exeter alone!!

The fact is that the EU legislation was drafted to reflect COACH services. As the U.K. has a lot of longer +50km BUS services, it was the law of unintended consequences that saw these swept up into legislation that was never supposed to apply to them as Arctic Troll rightly highlights. Hence why the DfT eventually gave this guidance.

peterblue · 4 Aug 2019

I think the law should just be updated! Every company uses this loophole and it's not particular helpful for passengers. Just obfuscates things and makes it more confusing for someone who isn't in 'the know'.

Unlikely to be changed, I know, but it would be nice.

randyrippley · 4 Aug 2019

Ken H said:
This is prompted by https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/unnecessarily-long-bus-routes-in-the-uk.187153/ long routes thread

The 555 in Cumbria timetable indicates that its a connection at kendal but a footnote says:-

the 580/581/582 Skipton-Lancaster is one through bus. But it changes number at Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale. and the timetable says

I know there is a 50Km cutover between GB rules and EU drivers hours rules but this seems to be a bit of a scam to make it seem a service is shorter than it actually is so GB rules apply.

And its confusing for the passenger.

Isn't the 580/1/2 confusion because different legs have different council funding (Lancs, Cumbria, N Yorks) and the councils have to pretend to keep the support "in area"? Nothing to do with driver regs, the councils can pretend there are three different services each with its own subsidy

SeveerYeliab · 5 Aug 2019

Before 3rd June 2017 in East Kent the route 2 would go
Hastings - Tenterden then Connect at Tenterden for Tenterden to ashford(still route 2)
It would then connect again, but change to a number 1 and continue to Canterbury.

Rather confusingly the 1 and the 2 were on completely different timetables. End to end was over 4 hours

bobslack1982 · 5 Aug 2019

The 685 Newcastle to Carlisle is operated by both Arriva and Stagecoach but both companies used to have different numbering and splitting arrangements. Not sure if they’ve aligned now.

TheGrandWazoo · 5 Aug 2019

bobslack1982 said:
The 685 Newcastle to Carlisle is operated by both Arriva and Stagecoach but both companies used to have different numbering and splitting arrangements. Not sure if they’ve aligned now.

Is that right? Thought the 685 was always used by both firms but with different numbers for some route variations by Arriva?

bobslack1982 · 5 Aug 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Is that right? Thought the 685 was always used by both firms but with different numbers for some route variations by Arriva?

I’m sure I remember recently that Arriva operated it as the 85 to Hexham then as the 685 to Carlisle but Stagecoach operating to Hexham, then Brampton, then Carlisle.

DunsBus · 5 Aug 2019

Quite a number of Borders Buses' services operate on split registrations: 51/52 (split at Lauder), 60 (split at Duns) , 67 (split at Kelso), 253 (split at Grsntshouse, Innerwick and Haddington), X62 (split at Peebles) and X95 (split at Newtongrange, Galashiels, Hawick and Langholm).

Slightly off-topic, but I remember Stagecosch in Hants & Surrey routes 19 (Aldershot - Haslemere) and 71 (Guildford - Haslemere) being linked at Haslemere for a spell, creating an Aldershot - Haslemere - Guildford through service. The service numbers changed at Haslemere, but you could stay on the bus. I remember doing this run back in 2013, on board Stagecoach Olympian 16629, from the Guildford end. An enjoyable way to spend just over an hour-and-three-quarters.

Tetchytyke · 5 Aug 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Is that right? Thought the 685 was always used by both firms but with different numbers for some route variations by Arriva?

Before EU rules Arriva ran the Sunday Hexham short service as 85, and when the EU rules first came in they registered the Newcastle-Haydon Bridge section as 85, and onwards to Carlisle as 685, with the EU split at Haydon Bridge. Stagecoach had splits at Brampton and Hexham but ran as 685 throughout. I think Arriva were just more cautious about the fudge; the old X1 Newcastle-Middlesbrough had a split put in at Durham, also with a number change (X12 north of Durham IIRC).

I think the 685 is aligned now, but I'm not sure if Arriva do a split at Brampton (the timetable suggests so).

TheGrandWazoo · 5 Aug 2019

bobslack1982 said:
I’m sure I remember recently that Arriva operated it as the 85 to Hexham then as the 685 to Carlisle but Stagecoach operating to Hexham, then Brampton, then Carlisle.

You may be right. Remember the 185 via Gilsland?

Aictos · 5 Aug 2019

Not sure if this counts but the NXWM 80/80A route in Birmingham actually doesn't change bus or route number, it just does a continuous loop every 10 minutes though most of the day.

Typhoon · 5 Aug 2019

SeveerYeliab said:
Before 3rd June 2017 in East Kent the route 2 would go
Hastings - Tenterden then Connect at Tenterden for Tenterden to ashford(still route 2)
It would then connect again, but change to a number 1 and continue to Canterbury.

Rather confusingly the 1 and the 2 were on completely different timetables. End to end was over 4 hours

That is a bit ungenerous.
The 07/16 timetable for the 1 does indicate which are through services and gives times for Tenterden and Hastings, stating 'A change of bus is not required'.
The 07/16 timetable for the 2 is more vague with a blob with 'These buses continue to Canterbury as route 1, 1A, 1X' or 'start from' as appropriate. This timetable also includes the timetable for the 2X as this also links Ashford and Tenterden.

Not that many passengers travelled across Ashford on the few times that I caught the bus and the earliest you could get to Hastings from Canterbury was 13:16. A combined timetable would be a monstrosity - it would have to include journeys on the 1A (a slight variant) which links Canterbury to the commuter village of Chartham.

Tetchytyke · 5 Aug 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
You may be right. Remember the 185 via Gilsland?

The 185 was the Gilsland short service from Carlisle, the full distance services via Gilsland ran as the 685. And as someone who used the 685 a lot, I wasn't sad to see the diversion go.

Megafuss · 5 Aug 2019

peterblue said:
I think the law should just be updated! Every company uses this loophole and it's not particular helpful for passengers. Just obfuscates things and makes it more confusing for someone who isn't in 'the know'.

Unlikely to be changed, I know, but it would be nice.

In effect, It's no different to a driver doing a number of interworking services for a piece of work

Buses that change number or say its connection guaranteed but same vehicle.

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