Class 802 complaint

I have a 'little' complaint regarding GWR's handling of the 5X5 carriage Class 802 services. It isn't a particular moan about the trains themselves, but more of a moan about how GWR have operared them.

As you know, in Cornwall there are plenty of short platforms which can only fit a single 5 carriage IET or less... As a result, you would have thought that the operations team would have passed this onto the sales team, to tell them not to allow people at these stations to reserve seats in the portion which is locked out... This is not the case though!

GWR will continue to allocate reservations in the locked out portion. As a result, you have to take all your stuff onto one portion, and then at the next station (or longer, depending on where you are!) you must get all of your stuff off, and into the correct portion.

This is usually fine for me, however last weekend I took a trip with a family, and we had a combined 4 cases between us, and other smaller bags... It worked out to 1 bag each, but since there was a baby it made it harder. As a result, imagine hauling all of our stuff from one portion to another, plus worrying about the baby, and unsettling her. It is simply not practical, and dangerous.

Whilst I have no issue with the running of 5X5 sets, because there are genuine benefits from an operational perspective, I think that it is paramount that internal communication is used to ensure that reservations are only available on areas of the train that will be available. Trains have set stopping points at most stations, so this can be done easily.

Obviously with the 9 carriage sets there are no problems, because you can walk through the train, and you won't be stuck in one portion.

Full moan coming soon to my website! But for now, what are your thoughts on this... I can't stress enough though, that this is fine when alone, however since most users are tourists, imagine the stress with families and luggage.

George
@OfficialGMoore

My first (and probably only) question would be:
Are they running as 10 (vice 9) on the day where they planned for a 9 car?

Couldn't agree more. Sadly it's an all too common complaint. Also extremely confusing trying to work out where first class will be on these 5+5 sets , annoying lots of customers unfortunately.

Apologies if I've missed this in the many posts regarding 80x sets, I signed 222s 14/15 years ago and I could stop at a 1 car or 9 car platform with a pair and select exactly what I needed, why in 2019 does all new traction not have this capability?

800002 said:

My first (and probably only) question would be:
Are they running as 10 (vice 9) on the day where they planned for a 9 car?

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The issue happened 3 times for me, however it was only once where I had a problem with it, when with the family. Most services down in Hayle were 5X5 so doubt it was an equipment swap.

irish_rail said:

Couldn't agree more. Sadly it's an all too common complaint. Also extremely confusing trying to work out where first class will be on these 5+5 sets , annoying lots of customers unfortunately.

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I don't understand how they (GWR) can't get all the units pointing in the same direction.
Yes, I understand sometimes that they get turned, without a counter-turn, and it did happen with the HSTs but it does seem a higher percentage of the IEP fleet suffer from this affliction.

DenmarkRail said:

The issue happened 3 times for me, however it was only once where I had a problem with it, when with the family. Most services down in Hayle were 5X5 so doubt it was an equipment swap.

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Yeah, that does seem a bit too common (I should've picked up on that from your OP, sorry). It does sound like a booking software issue where improper parameters have been specified.

ExRes said:

Apologies if I've missed this in the many posts regarding 80x sets, I signed 222s 14/15 years ago and I could stop at a 1 car or 9 car platform with a pair and select exactly what I needed, why in 2019 does all new traction not have this capability?

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I think the issue is that if it's a 5-car platform (or less), and your reserved seat is in car 6, that you can't get into the front unit without getting off the train at a prior station and then get back onto it. This could cause issues if there isn't a suitable place to do this, if, for example, the first stop is where you're aiming to go to, and it's a short platform!

supervc-10 said:

I think the issue is that if it's a 5-car platform (or less), and your reserved seat is in car 6, that you can't get into the front unit without getting off the train at a prior station and then get back onto it. This could cause issues if there isn't a suitable place to do this, if, for example, the first stop is where you're aiming to go to, and it's a short platform!

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There's an even worse scenario... what if your reserved seat say from Plymouth is in a portion that is then not platformed when you arrive at your destination?!?!

That's exactly what I mean! I don't know the route at all, but let's say the first station out of Plymouth has a short platform, and that's where you're going. Rushing to get on the train, and jump on into your reserved carriage, and then you're screwed.

I should probably note that I have filed a complaint with GWR as a result of this... Not expecting much, nor do I want to be pushed over with corporate rubbish... Nonetheless, I think it is important that they are caught up on this whilst the problem is relatively new, before people start the ‘this has happened for years’ response.

I doubt this issue will actually happen on LNER services, since I can’t think of any LNER calling stations which may only fit 5 carriages.

ok this may be a complete load of rubbish but with the SDO couldn't the train stop with maybe 3 coaches of the front set and 2 coaches of the rear set platformed allowing access to each set

supervc-10 said:

I think the issue is that if it's a 5-car platform (or less), and your reserved seat is in car 6, that you can't get into the front unit without getting off the train at a prior station and then get back onto it. This could cause issues if there isn't a suitable place to do this, if, for example, the first stop is where you're aiming to go to, and it's a short platform!

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I think you've got me bang to rights guv, failing to read the original post with due care and attention

Tony43 said:

ok this may be a complete load of rubbish but with the SDO couldn't the train stop with maybe 3 coaches of the front set and 2 coaches of the rear set platformed allowing access to each set

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Could - maybe. Do - obviously not.

DenmarkRail said:

I doubt this issue will actually happen on LNER services, since I can’t think of any LNER calling stations which may only fit 5 carriages.

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The only place that springs to mind is Lincoln, which should finally have a regular London service in either September or December.

43096 said:

Could - maybe. Do - obviously not.

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Shame - exactly what I was thinking. Really, it's either this, or fix the software so that people can book in the correct part of the train, no matter where they are going. There shouldn't have to be any movement between the two portions, it could be far too difficult for someone of reduced mobility or someone with lots of stuff, as the OP mentioned.

Makes me wonder why GWR even bothered with 5 car sets paired up. If you need 10 car sets, but a 10 car train.

Tony43 said:

ok this may be a complete load of rubbish but with the SDO couldn't the train stop with maybe 3 coaches of the front set and 2 coaches of the rear set platformed allowing access to each set

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Good in theory - massive undertaking in execution.
- the distances (to stop beyond the platform) would need to be measured and boarded.
- it could also interfere with the signals (as the train may have to stop after passing a proceed aspect, which may be reverted to danger - which means the guard can't dispatch against a danger.
- and there could be other issues .

I recall using the 387's between paddington and Hayes - the 8 car units which were too longfor the platforms.
All the announcements were made, and yet still people took no notice / they had not relaised the implication of the announcements.
A woman with pushchair tried and failed to get through the vestibules (the train was nearly empty) and I recall thinking after being on an 800 and seeing the similar looking vestibules and how narrow they were that it's going to be difficult to manouver a large suitcase through here, letalone anything else.
I guess harping back to the other numerous threads - the design was lacking (in numerous areas) of the 80x fleet.

Tony43 said:

ok this may be a complete load of rubbish but with the SDO couldn't the train stop with maybe 3 coaches of the front set and 2 coaches of the rear set platformed allowing access to each set

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Not easily. Lots of signals are on the end of the platforms for a start, so the front of the train passing them isn’t ideal. And secondly, there is only 1 wheelchair space per 5-car train, in the first class end, and if it ends up being vehicles 1 & 10 there would be no disabled access to the train if vehicles 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 are on the platform.

It should be the case that all trains have Coaches A-E at the country end, and G-L at the London end. I believe I’m correct in saying that if it is set up correctly like this then the above issues shouldn’t arise, as seats are booked in portions that will be on the platform.

5x5 wont be common come December as it'll be portion working with splitting/attaching at Plymouth with another 5 car set. This is the reason they ordered 5 cars.

I've seen the problem myself first hand. People couldn't get out the back unit at the station and they weren't pleased at all.

It probably looked great on paper but in reality 5 cars to penzance is going to be a nightmare and an operational headache.

DenmarkRail said:

I have a 'little' complaint regarding GWR's handling of the 5X5 carriage Class 802 services. It isn't a particular moan about the trains themselves, but more of a moan about how GWR have operared them.

As you know, in Cornwall there are plenty of short platforms which can only fit a single 5 carriage IET or less... As a result, you would have thought that the operations team would have passed this onto the sales team, to tell them not to allow people at these stations to reserve seats in the portion which is locked out... This is not the case though!

GWR will continue to allocate reservations in the locked out portion. As a result, you have to take all your stuff onto one portion, and then at the next station (or longer, depending on where you are!) you must get all of your stuff off, and into the correct portion.

This is usually fine for me, however last weekend I took a trip with a family, and we had a combined 4 cases between us, and other smaller bags... It worked out to 1 bag each, but since there was a baby it made it harder. As a result, imagine hauling all of our stuff from one portion to another, plus worrying about the baby, and unsettling her. It is simply not practical, and dangerous.

Whilst I have no issue with the running of 5X5 sets, because there are genuine benefits from an operational perspective, I think that it is paramount that internal communication is used to ensure that reservations are only available on areas of the train that will be available. Trains have set stopping points at most stations, so this can be done easily.

Obviously with the 9 carriage sets there are no problems, because you can walk through the train, and you won't be stuck in one portion.

Full moan coming soon to my website! But for now, what are your thoughts on this... I can't stress enough though, that this is fine when alone, however since most users are tourists, imagine the stress with families and luggage.

George
@OfficialGMoore

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I totally agree with your point. Whilst it has never happened to me personally, I can imagine the frustration I would feel in this situation.

Rail passengers, especially tourists, prefer and enjoy simplicity when using public transport. This is a clear example of when rail travel is not simple and it reflects badly on GWR as in the case of a tourist 'First Impressions Count'.