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Flooding Disruption 31 July/1 August

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Greybeard33

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Completely roundabout. It is much quicker by road from Chinley to Manchester via the M67 than via the Cat and Fiddle.
Google Maps navigation function gives the driving time from Chinley to Piccadilly, via Hollingworth and the M67, as up to 90 minutes in the morning peak. Whereas Chinley to Macclesfield station via the Cat and Fiddle is no more than 45 minutes at the same time. Macclesfield to Piccadilly by rail is 20 minutes.

I rest my case!
 
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daodao

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Google Maps navigation function gives the driving time from Chinley to Piccadilly, via Hollingworth and the M67, as up to 90 minutes in the morning peak. Whereas Chinley to Macclesfield station via the Cat and Fiddle is no more than 45 minutes at the same time. Macclesfield to Piccadilly by rail is 20 minutes.

I rest my case!

AA quotes 51 minutes by road via the M67. Manchester to Macclesfield takes 20-30 minutes by rail (depending on the operator) and there will be a 5-10 minute delay in changing from bus to train.
 

LowLevel

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EMT apparently introducing a service between Sheffield and Hope from tomorrow reversing at Earles Sidings. You can't reverse at Edale as there's no crossover.
 

_toommm_

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For alll the people complaining about EMT not introducing a service on the Hope Valley; they will be running a service calling at Dore & Totley, Grindleford, Hathersage, Bamford and Hope from Tuesday only.
 

Greybeard33

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AA quotes 51 minutes by road via the M67. Manchester to Macclesfield takes 20-30 minutes by rail (depending on the operator) and there will be a 5-10 minute delay in changing from bus to train.
Agreed that, off peak, a direct bus from Chinley to Piccadilly could, depending on traffic conditions, be quicker. But it would convey relatively few passengers and need more buses and drivers than a 20 minute extension of the Buxton bus. Is there any requirement for rail replacement services to be as fast as possible, regardless of cost?

The BBC is reporting that the reservoir water level should be pumped low enough for the evacuees to be allowed home sometime on Wednesday. Hopefully this means that normal rail services might resume on Thursday at the latest.
 

furnessvale

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Agreed that, off peak, a direct bus from Chinley to Piccadilly could, depending on traffic conditions, be quicker. But it would convey relatively few passengers and need more buses and drivers than a 20 minute extension of the Buxton bus. Is there any requirement for rail replacement services to be as fast as possible, regardless of cost?

The BBC is reporting that the reservoir water level should be pumped low enough for the evacuees to be allowed home sometime on Wednesday. Hopefully this means that normal rail services might resume on Thursday at the latest.

By the time people are allowed back into Whaley, the dam will have been thoroughly inspected and passed as safe.

Is it beyond the capabilities of NR to inspect their bridges at the same time as the dam so trains can resume at the same time? Not that there is anything to inspect. The bridges have been subject to no more forces than they receive in every bout of heavy weather. The closure was all about a catastrophic collapse of the dam as has been pointed out to me many times. Even now, a collapse of the dam with its current level of water could not possibly affect New Mills viaduct.

Hey ho! Stand by for incoming flak.
 
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sheff1

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EMT apparently introducing a service between Sheffield and Hope from tomorrow reversing at Earles Sidings. You can't reverse at Edale as there's no crossover.

So it is possible.

Rather takes the wind out of the sails of those giving various 'reasons' why it was not.
 

Signal Head

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EMT apparently introducing a service between Sheffield and Hope from tomorrow reversing at Earles Sidings. You can't reverse at Edale as there's no crossover.

There is at Chinley East Junction though, so reversal ought to be possible there. Signalling should allow it too, route onto the East-South curve, and then back out onto the Up Main.
 

Llanigraham

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By the time people are allowed back into Whaley, the dam will have been thoroughly inspected and passed as safe.

Is it beyond the capabilities of NR to inspect their bridges at the same time as the dam so trains can resume at the same time? Not that there is anything to inspect. The bridges have been subject to no more forces than they receive in every bout of heavy weather. The closure was all about a catastrophic collapse of the dam as has been pointed out to me many times. Even now, a collapse of the dam with its current level of water could not possibly affect New Mills viaduct.

Hey ho! Stand by for incoming flak.

From another (and better informed) forum:
At the present time the river is running too high for any inspections to be made or for them to replace and repair the bridge sensors on the viaduct.
Whatever you think, the experts are saying that the water forces that have occurred in the last week have been far higher than they have previously been subjected to, because to the suddenness of the occurrence, and seem to have followed different paths to the normal winter fresshes.
 
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DanTrain

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There is at Chinley East Junction though, so reversal ought to be possible there. Signalling should allow it too, route onto the East-South curve, and then back out onto the Up Main.
Hope and back can be done in an hour using one unit, I’m guessing that’s the reason for not going beyond Hope.
 

Class 170101

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Agreed that, off peak, a direct bus from Chinley to Piccadilly could, depending on traffic conditions, be quicker. But it would convey relatively few passengers and need more buses and drivers than a 20 minute extension of the Buxton bus. Is there any requirement for rail replacement services to be as fast as possible, regardless of cost?

The BBC is reporting that the reservoir water level should be pumped low enough for the evacuees to be allowed home sometime on Wednesday. Hopefully this means that normal rail services might resume on Thursday at the latest.

Depending upon whether a) NR can inspect and B0 repair the sensors I guess. However it does raise the question why the sensors are positioned such as to get damaged easily. Would it not be possible to install sensors that still sense what is going on whilst not being in such a vulnerable position themselves?
 

Greybeard33

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By the time people are allowed back into Whaley, the dam will have been thoroughly inspected and passed as safe.

Is it beyond the capabilities of NR to inspect their bridges at the same time as the dam so trains can resume at the same time? Not that there is anything to inspect. The bridges have been subject to no more forces than they receive in every bout of heavy weather. The closure was all about a catastrophic collapse of the dam as has been pointed out to me many times. Even now, a collapse of the dam with its current level of water could not possibly affect New Mills viaduct.

Hey ho! Stand by for incoming flak.
I am sure the engineers will be ultra cautious and not declare the dam safe until they are absolutely sure there is no possibility of a breach. Understandable, because it would be a career ending decision to get it wrong.

But I think it is unreasonable to expect rail services to resume part way through the day, as soon as the all clear is given. Network Rail staff will not be allowed back into the restricted areas in advance, and trains and traincrew will be out of position, e.g. providing the substitute/strengthened services Sheffield to Huddersfield and Hope, and Derby to Crewe.

Much better to have a pre-planned start up on Thursday morning.
 

30907

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So it is possible.

Rather takes the wind out of the sails of those giving various 'reasons' why it was not.
I think most of those reasons were about Northern not being in a position to run a service.
Presumably the negotiations took some time - a disadvantage of the franchise setup?
 

furnessvale

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I am sure the engineers will be ultra cautious and not declare the dam safe until they are absolutely sure there is no possibility of a breach. Understandable, because it would be a career ending decision to get it wrong.

But I think it is unreasonable to expect rail services to resume part way through the day, as soon as the all clear is given. Network Rail staff will not be allowed back into the restricted areas in advance, and trains and traincrew will be out of position, e.g. providing the substitute/strengthened services Sheffield to Huddersfield and Hope, and Derby to Crewe.

Much better to have a pre-planned start up on Thursday morning.
As always for me, I think freight. As soon as the line is open I am sure there will be a need to get the freight moving.
 

Greybeard33

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As always for me, I think freight. As soon as the line is open I am sure there will be a need to get the freight moving.
Indeed. But in New Mills, Church Road and Union Road are still closed over the respective river bridges, as is Albion Road over the canal and railway bridges and Station Road past Central station. That must mean that the official position is that these roads remain at risk of sudden flooding, until the all clear is given. That will apply equally to the Chinley to Hazel Grove and Chinley to Marple railway lines in this area.

Network Rail has a duty of care to its employees, so inspections of all three lines will only commence after the dam is declared safe.
 

Signal Head

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From another (and better informed) forum:
At the present time the river is running too high for any inspections to be made or for them to replace and repair the bridge sensors on the viaduct.
Whatever you think, the experts are saying that the water forces that have occurred in the last week have been far higher than they have previously been subjected to, because to the suddenness of the occurrence, and seem to have followed different paths to the normal winter fresshes.

Which is a completely different argument for having closed the lines on the opposite side of the valley, and not one I've seen anywhere else.

NRE gives 'flooding' (as far as I know, no railway infrastructure is itself still flooded) and 'possibility of a dam collapse' on their incident page (last time I looked a day or so ago). Nowhere does it mention the possibility of already sustained, hidden, structural damage.

Perhaps if that had been made more widely known, there wouldn't have been quite so much arguing in here.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Wouldn't New Mills Central be covered by the High Peak service 61, which I'm guessing is running soley between Glossop and New Mills? Therefore anyone wanting Manchester could bus it to Glossop then rail it to Manchester.

As for the rail replacements to Buxton from Macclesfield, with Buxton there is the 58 to Macclesfield (which takes 40 minutes via the Cat and Fiddle) but this is limited and even more so on Sunday's when it often gets curtailed at Buxton because of the extention to Chatsworth. I am suprisd that High Peak haven't drafted in an extra three buses to provide a roughly hourly-ish service to keep Buxton connected in some way to the rail network.
 

_toommm_

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Wouldn't New Mills Central be covered by the High Peak service 61, which I'm guessing is running soley between Glossop and New Mills? Therefore anyone wanting Manchester could bus it to Glossop then rail it to Manchester.

As for the rail replacements to Buxton from Macclesfield, with Buxton there is the 58 to Macclesfield (which takes 40 minutes via the Cat and Fiddle) but this is limited and even more so on Sunday's when it often gets curtailed at Buxton because of the extention to Chatsworth. I am suprisd that High Peak haven't drafted in an extra three buses to provide a roughly hourly-ish service to keep Buxton connected in some way to the rail network.

61 is Glossop to Buxton via New Mills. New Mills also has the 358???? to Stockport every hour too from the mini bus station.
 

Robertj21a

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Wouldn't New Mills Central be covered by the High Peak service 61, which I'm guessing is running soley between Glossop and New Mills? Therefore anyone wanting Manchester could bus it to Glossop then rail it to Manchester.

As for the rail replacements to Buxton from Macclesfield, with Buxton there is the 58 to Macclesfield (which takes 40 minutes via the Cat and Fiddle) but this is limited and even more so on Sunday's when it often gets curtailed at Buxton because of the extention to Chatsworth. I am suprisd that High Peak haven't drafted in an extra three buses to provide a roughly hourly-ish service to keep Buxton connected in some way to the rail network.

Do we know that they haven't ? Who should have requested/authorised any such additional services ?
 

unlevel42

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A temporary hourly "timetable" by EMT shows the the current Hope train terminating at Piccadilly via New Mills Central.
There is a hint that Piccadilly bit will operate for a week as of Wednesday-
 

Dr Hoo

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9A7B06A9-75FE-4630-A898-EB8AB4D740B6.jpeg EMT’s special service as far as Hope is up and running. Ties up four sets due to long layover at Earle’s Sidings.
 

Greybeard33

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Wouldn't New Mills Central be covered by the High Peak service 61, which I'm guessing is running soley between Glossop and New Mills? Therefore anyone wanting Manchester could bus it to Glossop then rail it to Manchester.
High Peak has full details of the flooding disruption to its bus services on its website:
Service 61 is operating to the timetable but not serving New Mills, Newtown, Furness Vale and Whaley Bridge. The service will be operating from Hayfield via Low Leighton Road as far as Church Lane and Hyde Bank Road and then to Hayield and Glossop/Buxton.
Service 60 will serve Macclesfield via Horwich End and Hayfield only

Service 190 is operating to Chinley Railway Station only and is not serving Buxworth and Whaley Bridge.

The New Mills town service 389 is suspended.
During the incident at Toddbrook Reservoir, service 199 is diverted between Chapel en le Frith and High Lane via Marple, Glossop and the A624.

This diversion will cause severe delays to the service timetable. Please go to https://twitter.com/HighPeakLive for the most upto date information on the service. Consult our bus tracker to see when the next bus is due to arrive.
 

sprinterguy

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As for the rail replacements to Buxton from Macclesfield, with Buxton there is the 58 to Macclesfield (which takes 40 minutes via the Cat and Fiddle) but this is limited and even more so on Sunday's when it often gets curtailed at Buxton because of the extention to Chatsworth. I am suprisd that High Peak haven't drafted in an extra three buses to provide a roughly hourly-ish service to keep Buxton connected in some way to the rail network.
I'm assuming that you're referring to Sundays only, as the 58 Macclesfield - Buxton bus is already hourly from Monday to Saturday. The hourly rail replacement bus, utilising a 50 seater luxury coach, operating between Macclesfield and Buxton has already trebled capacity on the route. In fact the rail replacement buses are running at a half hourly frequency at peak times. The route appears very well served to my eyes.
 
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Greybeard33

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Think it only ties up 2, as there was a long layover at Sheffield previously.
Leaves 4 sets spare to strengthen Derby-Crewe which is presumably ok.
Yes there was previously an hour layover at Sheffield, so only one extra diagram to extend to Hope.

I suspect the long layover is the reason for not serving Edale. They would have had to run ECS to Peak Forest to get out of the way of the freights. EMT drivers do not sign that line, so a route conductor would be needed.
 

Deepgreen

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The line has been undermined by floodwater between Crianlarich and Tyndrum, revealing steel sleepers hanging over the void. A relatively unusual sight.
 

30907

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The West Highland line has been undermined by floodwater between Crianlarich and Tyndrum, revealing steel sleepers hanging over the void. A relatively unusual sight.
Hope you don't mind the clarification, as this thread has been about Whaley Bridge (where only NR say there's actual flooding!) for several days, and I did a double-take.... :)
 
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