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Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

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OmniCity999

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To be honest Jordan, I thought X17 would have been put back down to singles in light of bridge strike / de roofing. It's not as if they are needed for capacity. There just a tad easier along the back roads to Fauldhouse. But with the pace you are restricted to on those roads your not any quicker with a decker. My best guess is for reliability? And there better to drive than a 04 plate B7 Rle / voith. But wouldn't think they would keep deckers on Purley for driver convinance?? Maybe omnicity999 could shed some light on it?

LCB's fleet is predominantly deckers due to familiarisation. Singles are in the fleet for any diversions due to low bridges or any future expansion near bridges. It was cheaper to source, buy and modernise a fleet of deckers than it was to source a mixed fleet. Any singles in the LCB fleet are those that were with Lothian or ECB before.

Singles are also a great stop gap whilst deckers arent available.
 
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ClydeCoaster

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We could do with a B5LH variant of the MCV eVoRa or Enviro200 MMC - there aren't that many Hybrid singles on the go at the moment.
Volvo still offer the 7900 hybrid integral, I thought those perform well at Lothian yet they never ordered any more, why was that, cost?
 

OmniCity999

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Volvo still offer the 7900 hybrid integral, I thought those perform well at Lothian yet they never ordered any more, why was that, cost?

Believe their not available in the UK market anymore? Orders were stopped due to cost and weight versus lack of capacity. It's also not a very customisable product, which Lothian didn't like.
 

Driver362

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LCB's fleet is predominantly deckers due to familiarisation. Singles are in the fleet for any diversions due to low bridges or any future expansion near bridges. It was cheaper to source, buy and modernise a fleet of deckers than it was to source a mixed fleet. Any singles in the LCB fleet are those that were with Lothian or ECB before.

Singles are also a great stop gap whilst deckers arent available.
Thanks for reply omnicity999. I am/have been a LCB driver from the start up of opco, just thought with a bridge strike they would have reverted to singles. A colleague recently suggested the roof in the case of a bridge strike is meant to detach as this one did,not detracting from seriousness of situation .is this the case or has it went under so quick the roof has come right off? As always appreciate your insight
 

VioletEclipse

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Will this be the bendy/articulated ones? I know said a few months ago that they were on their way for a city route. 30 needs more capacity for sure though.
The 30 is the one route in the Lothian network which needs artics, and I've been saying it for years. Would be brilliant if the new singles were actually artics for service 30. :)
 
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The 30 is the one route in the Lothian network which needs artics, and I've been saying it for years. Would be brilliant if the new singles were actually artics for service 30. :)
I'm no expert on the 30 route or vehicle deployment. But you'd think there would be more conventional ways of solving problems on the 30. Is the bus full of passengers when it goes under the low bridge or is it other sections of the route where crowding occurs? Buying a dedicated bus type for just one route must surely be rather inefficient, unless there's a plan to use articulated buses more widely.
 

Jordan Adam

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I'm no expert on the 30 route or vehicle deployment. But you'd think there would be more conventional ways of solving problems on the 30. Is the bus full of passengers when it goes under the low bridge or is it other sections of the route where crowding occurs? Buying a dedicated bus type for just one route must surely be rather inefficient, unless there's a plan to use articulated buses more widely.

Keep in mind the rumoured B8RLEA/Enviro300 would be almost identical mechanically to a standard B8RLE. With it having the same running gear as the B8L/E400XLB too (Just mounted different). So not that inefficient.
 

TheEastCoaster

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The 30 is the one route in the Lothian network which needs artics, and I've been saying it for years. Would be brilliant if the new singles were actually artics for service 30. :)

I just had a thought, considering Lothian did this recently with the 33, what if they make a snappy decision to curtail the 30 so it runs Clovenstone to Newcraighal station so they can introduce deckers and introduce another service to cover the Musselburgh section to Niddrie? maybe extend it down the Royal? Call it the 48A?? :lol:
 

Andyh82

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I just had a thought, considering Lothian did this recently with the 33, what if they make a snappy decision to curtail the 30 so it runs Clovenstone to Newcraighal station so they can introduce deckers and introduce another service to cover the Musselburgh section to Niddrie? maybe extend it down the Royal? Call it the 48A?? :lol:
Could they terminate the 30 at Newcraighall, and covert to double deckers.

And as a replacement extend the 2 from The Jewel to Newcraighall and then via the 30 route to Musselburgh?
 

ScotRail158725

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I'm no expert on the 30 route or vehicle deployment. But you'd think there would be more conventional ways of solving problems on the 30. Is the bus full of passengers when it goes under the low bridge or is it other sections of the route where crowding occurs? Buying a dedicated bus type for just one route must surely be rather inefficient, unless there's a plan to use articulated buses more widely.
east section of the 30 is pretty much almost always full.
 
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east section of the 30 is pretty much almost always full.
Yes it can become full around Surgeons' Hall going out of the city centre, but is it full of passengers going beneath the low bridge every 12 minutes each way? Or could other services be reorganised as double deckers to alleviate most of the pressure leaving a single deck non city centre route like the 2 traversing the bridge as suggested up thread? Just a thought - sounds like something is planned and no doubt all will be revealed in time.
 

OmniCity999

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I'm no expert on the 30 route or vehicle deployment. But you'd think there would be more conventional ways of solving problems on the 30. Is the bus full of passengers when it goes under the low bridge or is it other sections of the route where crowding occurs? Buying a dedicated bus type for just one route must surely be rather inefficient, unless there's a plan to use articulated buses more widely.

The way the roof came off is the way it is designed to in that situation. Weirdly, it is the safest way.

Yes it can become full around Surgeons' Hall going out of the city centre, but is it full of passengers going beneath the low bridge every 12 minutes each way? Or could other services be reorganised as double deckers to alleviate most of the pressure leaving a single deck non city centre route like the 2 traversing the bridge as suggested up thread? Just a thought - sounds like something is planned and no doubt all will be revealed in time.

The 30 can often be full leaving Musselburgh yes. Around 10 years ago there was talk of Lothian partly paying for the road to be dropped and a new bridge being put in, the idea was quickly shelved due to cost. This would have allowed doubles to operate the route.

They also looked at running the regular route to QMU then A1, fort kincaid. With a feeder service or the 106 filling gaps in newcraighall village. Although this is no longer an option due to the housing developments.

Short term one of the options is arctics. Long term QMU - A1 - FK when the new housing is built at Millerhill and the new slips are put in.

A single deck feeder service with a frequency of say 20 minutes running Wallyford, Musselburgh, Tesco, Stoneybank, QMU, Newcraighall, FK, RIE, Cameron Toll or Straiton could work, possibly turning the 140 into a circular or inter working.

But it's more likely the 106 will run hourly Haddington to the fort with extras running Wallyford to RIE ro make a 20 min frequency.

But enough about my ramblings...
 

Volvodart

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I've not seen it anywhere. Certaionly would be interesting to see what has been offered this time around.

Seems this is the offer:-

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....oversee-bullying-investigations-1-4977307/amp

HR official to oversee 'bullying' investigations
image.jpg

Lothian Buses drivers will vote on mesures to avert strike action
DAVID BOL

Published: 18:55Monday 05 August 2019
A city council official will be drafted into Lothian Buses to oversee complaints of “behaviours and trust” with management, if drivers back a new deal to avert strike action on Friday.

Last week, union leaders and Lothian Buses management brokered a deal, which led to continuous strike action being suspended. The agreement, which features 13 bullet points, will be voted on by Unite members on Friday after being unanimously backed by union stewards. If approved, strike action is set to be halted – but drivers could reject the deal, leading the way for a walkout.

The strike action was initially tabled amid allegations of a “toxic management culture” within Lothian Buses’ management.


Included in the new offer is “a high level of review of all cases received from the union in respect of bullying and harassment”, while “an independent HR officer” from the city council will be brought in to supervise the issues being tackled.


The updated offer includes better shift patterns and working conditions for staff – particularly for single decker drivers. If agreed by Unite member on Friday, the five-day single decker shift will be capped at nine hours and 15 minutes from the current 12-hour limit. Also touted is a “staggered progression rate” for single decker drivers after two years of service.


A Lothian spokesperson said: “Following positive talks, proposals were agreed between Unite officials and Lothian which led to the suspension of last Friday’s proposed strike action.

“The proposals include the option to appoint an external independent consultant who has extensive experience of change management programmes at a public sector level and who has worked with Unite representatives previously.

“The proposals as tabled were then approved at a full Unite committee meeting where union representatives agreed to recommend the deal for acceptance in a workplace ballot on Friday 9 August.”

Conservative transport spokesperson Cllr Nick Cook, said that drafting a taxpayer-funding HR officer would “raise a few eyebrows”.

He added: “Potential costs aside, this does appear to show that Lothian Buses’ top brass feel they have nothing to hide in respect of the company’s management culture or treatment of staff. Other aspects of the deal range from fair, to generous, in my estimation. It remains the case that the Edinburgh public will suffer most from any strike.”

Liberal Democrat transport spokesperson Cllr Kevin Lang added: “It is clear a major effort is needed to rebuild the trust and confidence which drivers have in the management at Lothian Buses.

“If more direct involvement from the council can assist and is acceptable to all sides then we need to make sure the appropriate resources are provided. The people of this city depends on bus services to get about so all of us have an interest in ensuring those issues that very nearly led to strike action are properly addressed.”

The council's transport and environment convener, Cllr Lesley Macinnes, said: “Colleagues from the council’s HR team, with extensive change management experience, have already met with Lothian and will continue to provide support, working closely with both Unite and Lothian representatives.

“In addition, the council has noted Unite’s views on these matters and has made it clear to all parties we expect to see rapid progress to improve the current position.”



 

scotrail158713

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east section of the 30 is pretty much almost always full.
Yeah there are a lot of journeys from Musselburgh to the Fort which are rammed full - not every single journey, but a high proportion are. Just like a lot of journeys from the city centre are rammed full - but not every journey.
 

Driver362

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The way the roof came off is the way it is designed to in that situation. Weirdly, it is the safest way.



The 30 can often be full leaving Musselburgh yes. Around 10 years ago there was talk of Lothian partly paying for the road to be dropped and a new bridge being put in, the idea was quickly shelved due to cost. This would have allowed doubles to operate the route.

They also looked at running the regular route to QMU then A1, fort kincaid. With a feeder service or the 106 filling gaps in newcraighall village. Although this is no longer an option due to the housing developments.

Short term one of the options is arctics. Long term QMU - A1 - FK when the new housing is built at Millerhill and the new slips are put in.

A single deck feeder service with a frequency of say 20 minutes running Wallyford, Musselburgh, Tesco, Stoneybank, QMU, Newcraighall, FK, RIE, Cameron Toll or Straiton could work, possibly turning the 140 into a circular or inter working.

But it's more likely the 106 will run hourly Haddington to the fort with extras running Wallyford to RIE ro make a 20 min frequency.

But enough about my ramblings...
Thanks omnicity999
 

ejstubbs

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I don't know whether it's just down to festival traffic volumes, or the introduction of the ex-London middle door buses*, or what, but information on the TforE app for the number 4 seems to be very flaky at the moment. For example:
  • Last week I rolled up to the Haymarket stop to get a southbound bus and the display at the stop said that the next bus was 27 minutes away - not great for a service with is supposed to run roughly every 15 minutes. The app said the same thing, but when I called up the map display in the app it clearly showed a Hillend-bound bus just about to turn in to Torphichen Street. Sure enough, just a couple of minutes later it rolled round the corner from Morrison Street.
  • A few days later I was waiting at my 'home' stop for a bus in to town. The app showed the next bus due in two minutes, but greyed out with an asterisk next to it which AFAIU means "this is when it's meant to be there but we don't actually know where it is". Again, calling up the map display clearly showed a bus heading to The Jewel just about turn on to Oxgangs Road. So for the second time the schedule displayed by the app seemed to be disconnected from the tracking information.
  • This morning at the same stop the app showed one bus due in six minutes and another due in seven minutes! Highly unlikely, given that my stop is only 3-4 minutes from the Hillend terminus. I called up the map display and this time it zoomed off to show me a bus heading east on Princes Street, but clearly showing it as due at my stop at 08:43!
I don't expect the information to be 100% reliable 100% of the time but it does appear to be unreliable verging on being worse than useless at the moment. Is this something I can report to LB somehow? (I have screenshots of the last two instances showing how the schedule and the map disagreed at the time.)

On a related subject: does anyone know why the bus information screen inside Haymarket station shows times for all Lothian buses due at the three Haymarket stops (HA, HF and HG) except for the number 4 southbound? The screen itself clearly carries ScotRail branding, and it's their station, but their response when I pointed the problem out to them was "nothing to do with us mate you need to talk to LB".

* The wifi on these buses seems to work differently, too - you still have to go to the clickbait-y LetsJoin page but you don't then have to click the "Go online" button to get full access to the 'net. Or is this a change that's been implemented across the whole fleet?
 

route101

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I don't know whether it's just down to festival traffic volumes, or the introduction of the ex-London middle door buses*, or what, but information on the TforE app for the number 4 seems to be very flaky at the moment. For example:
  • Last week I rolled up to the Haymarket stop to get a southbound bus and the display at the stop said that the next bus was 27 minutes away - not great for a service with is supposed to run roughly every 15 minutes. The app said the same thing, but when I called up the map display in the app it clearly showed a Hillend-bound bus just about to turn in to Torphichen Street. Sure enough, just a couple of minutes later it rolled round the corner from Morrison Street.
  • A few days later I was waiting at my 'home' stop for a bus in to town. The app showed the next bus due in two minutes, but greyed out with an asterisk next to it which AFAIU means "this is when it's meant to be there but we don't actually know where it is". Again, calling up the map display clearly showed a bus heading to The Jewel just about turn on to Oxgangs Road. So for the second time the schedule displayed by the app seemed to be disconnected from the tracking information.
  • This morning at the same stop the app showed one bus due in six minutes and another due in seven minutes! Highly unlikely, given that my stop is only 3-4 minutes from the Hillend terminus. I called up the map display and this time it zoomed off to show me a bus heading east on Princes Street, but clearly showing it as due at my stop at 08:43!
I don't expect the information to be 100% reliable 100% of the time but it does appear to be unreliable verging on being worse than useless at the moment. Is this something I can report to LB somehow? (I have screenshots of the last two instances showing how the schedule and the map disagreed at the time.)

On a related subject: does anyone know why the bus information screen inside Haymarket station shows times for all Lothian buses due at the three Haymarket stops (HA, HF and HG) except for the number 4 southbound? The screen itself clearly carries ScotRail branding, and it's their station, but their response when I pointed the problem out to them was "nothing to do with us mate you need to talk to LB".

* The wifi on these buses seems to work differently, too - you still have to go to the clickbait-y LetsJoin page but you don't then have to click the "Go online" button to get full access to the 'net. Or is this a change that's been implemented across the whole fleet?

Noticed up in Bonyrigg one of the screens not showing the 49 but was showing the 140.
 

Jordan Adam

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Granted it's only the first day but i can't help but notice that the XLB's are not managing to stick to timetable and bunching up with large gaps in service (currently at least 20 minutes between 1126 and 1139).

Currently bunched together are 1128/1139/1132, 1134/1135 & 1131/1140.

Edit: 1139 departed Edinburgh Airport 8 minutes late at 17:17 meaning there was a 27 minute gap in service. It's currently just got on to Eastfield Road while the bus ahead of it is at Haymarket!

Further Edit: To make matters worse 1131/1140/1137/1136/1133 are all operating towards the Airport together.
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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Granted it's only the first day but i can't help but notice that the XLB's are not managing to stick to timetable and bunching up with large gaps in service (currently at least 20 minutes between 1126 and 1139).

Currently bunched together are 1128/1139/1132, 1134/1135 & 1131/1140.

Edit: 1128 has just went out of service at Edinburgh Airport, i assume to retime.
They are struggling with Waverley Bridge, some buses if they take it wide enough and slowly get round but most need to reverse at some point.

A new route in the city is needed I think
 

A330Alex

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They are struggling with Waverley Bridge, some buses if they take it wide enough and slowly get round but most need to reverse at some point.

A new route in the city is needed I think
Just needs that section of George Street to open again in a month and should be good. Surprised they aren’t going down Queen Street then up the mound if it’s that bad.
 

Jordan Adam

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They are struggling with Waverley Bridge, some buses if they take it wide enough and slowly get round but most need to reverse at some point.

A new route in the city is needed I think

I'm surprised they're not retiming any buses as there's currently not been a bus depart the Airport since 17:25 and the next one is bunched with 3 other buses currently and is still on it's way to the Airport at Corstorphine.

Not to mention there was an almost 30 minute gap between 16:50 and 17:17 where there was no departures.
 

A330Alex

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I'm surprised they're not retiming any buses as there's currently not been a bus depart the Airport since 17:25 and the next one is bunched with 3 other buses currently and is still on it's way to the Airport at Corstorphine.

Not to mention there was an almost 30 minute gap between 16:50 and 17:17 where there was no departures.
I’d have thought they’d keep a few at the airport to balance things out but they’re all on their way back now - due at West End in 14, 14, 17 and 18 minutes...
 

RomeoCharlie71

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1128, 1132 and 1139 have just left Waverley Bridge as a trio.

Sounds like someone hasn't thought this through... again...
 

A330Alex

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Jumped on 1139 out to Murrayfield. The buses themselves are very nice (even if I’m too tall for the headrest) - the aisle seat has an inbuilt stop button for those off put by moving your hand 30 centimetres :D

Tad bemused at what the point of the one abreast seating opposite the stairs is.
 

Darklord8899

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When I finished work on Sunday, I went for the 300 as usual from Southside back to Sighthill, needless to say i had just missed one, next one was showing as being 65 minutes... not great for a 30min service....
 
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