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319s with Northern

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Bovverboy

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at least 3 of today's 319 diagrams had a 156 substituting.

I see that 'Journey Check' is showing a late Liverpool - Wilmslow and a late Liverpool - Wigan as formed of two carriages (both of which are diagrammed for 319s). I appreciate that some 319 diagrams have now finished for the day - do you know where else a 156 was substituting for a 319?
 
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prod_pep

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Well, I had 156461 on the 1411 Warrington B.Q. - Lime Street and saw 156426 on the 1415 Lime Street - Wigan N.W. The other was IIRC the 1821 Wigan N.W. - Lime Street; there was a two car showing on the boards at Roby anyway.

I've noticed Northern's Journey Check is particularly unreliable when it comes to the Liverpool electric services. It regularly fails to show two car substitutes and sometimes the services shown as short-formed are wrong. For example, a few weeks ago it showed the 1429 Lime St - Crewe as a 2 car when it was in fact the 1528 that was short-formed.
 

Bovverboy

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Well, I had 156461 on the 1411 Warrington B.Q. - Lime Street and saw 156426 on the 1415 Lime Street - Wigan N.W. The other was IIRC the 1821 Wigan N.W. - Lime Street; there was a two car showing on the boards at Roby anyway.

I've noticed Northern's Journey Check is particularly unreliable when it comes to the Liverpool electric services. It regularly fails to show two car substitutes and sometimes the services shown as short-formed are wrong. For example, a few weeks ago it showed the 1429 Lime St - Crewe as a 2 car when it was in fact the 1528 that was short-formed.

Journey Check is unreliable, full stop! Only tonight, two separate diagrams on Lime Street - Airport semi-fast were being shown as short-formed (2 carriages v 4), one direction only. It certainly looked as though one journey was being incorrectly reported, especially since one of the diagrams is booked for a 3-car 195 anyway.
A few days ago the 0518 Preston to Barrow service was short-formed, perhaps cancelled, I'm not sure now. It was initially reported as being the 0618 train which was affected - there is no such train.
 
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_toommm_

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They do do:

- Lime St. to Crewe stoppers via the Airport (curtailed to either Piccadilly to Wilmslow, or Lime St. to Wilmslow in the evening)*
- Hazel Grove to Blackpool North (usually xx:31 from Picc P14)
- Manchester Victoria to Preston
- Piccadilly to Crewe (via Cheadle Hulme)*

*
can be a mix of 323s and 319s
 

Bovverboy

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They do do:

- Lime St. to Crewe stoppers via the Airport (curtailed to either Piccadilly to Wilmslow, or Lime St. to Wilmslow in the evening)*
- Hazel Grove to Blackpool North (usually xx:31 from Picc P14)
- Manchester Victoria to Preston
- Piccadilly to Crewe (via Cheadle Hulme)*

*
can be a mix of 323s and 319s

They also do:

Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western/Blackpool North via St Helens Central (along with 323s, to Wigan North Western only)
Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western (via Newton-le-Willows) - three single journeys per day Mon-Fri, two Sat
Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay - and, at the moment, additional shorts Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown (along with 323s)
Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria - eight single journeys per day Mon-Thurs, nine Fri, three Sat

EDIT: Add (see post #7):
Stoke-on-Trent to Blackpool North - one single journey per day, Mon-Sat

Note that the additional shorts Warrington Bank Quay to Earlestown only operated while the Acton Grange improvement works were in progress, July/Aug 2019.
 
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sprinterguy

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I was surprised to see last week that there's a 319 that starts it's day on the 06:24 Stoke - Blackpool North: I'm not used to seeing 319s through Macclesfield (All the other local services remain 323s), but seeing as it continues through to Blackpool it makes sense.
 

Bovverboy

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I was surprised to see last week that there's a 319 that starts it's day on the 06:24 Stoke - Blackpool North: I'm not used to seeing 319s through Macclesfield (All the other local services remain 323s), but seeing as it continues through to Blackpool it makes sense.

Funny thing, I'd been aware of this Stoke to Blackpool North journey but never thought to wonder what operated it. So much for the notion, 'they'll never allow 319s to Stoke'. Still, it does run comfortably before the start-up of any northbound VT/XC services.
It even calls at Longport, one of only two Northern journeys per day (Mons to Sats) to do so.
It runs to Stoke ECS from Stockport CMD, a stabling point for both 319s and 323s.

So to the list in post #5 can be added:

Stoke-on-Trent to Blackpool North - one single journey per day, Mon to Sat
 
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Bovverboy

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According to 'Journey Check', two 319 duties were being operated by 2-car DMUs today (Friday 26/7). One was on Lime Street - Wigan, which is nothing new, but the other was a surprise, Manchester Victoria to Preston. Didn't the service get cut back to Buckshaw Parkway for quite a while, because diesels weren't going to be able to do Manchester - Preston and back in a two-hour round trip?
There's nothing like putting something to the test, and, lo and behold, the diesel was running late for most of the day, although there were one or two journeys where time was recovered, to a point. However, the last departure which was made on time was the 1105 from Victoria.
After the 1705 from Victoria (actual departure 1717) arrived at Preston 21L it was evidently decided that something needed to be done, and the 1804 departure from Preston skipped the scheduled stops at Leyland, Buckshaw Parkway, Chorley, Adlington, Blackrod, Horwich Parkway, and Salford Central. The only calls made were Lostock, Bolton, and Salford Crescent. The final journey, 1905 Victoria to Blackpool North, was made with no skipped stops but four minutes was lost during the trip.
I caught up with the unit as it departed Victoria on the scheduled 1705 journey (156426). Surprisingly, at least to me, bearing in mind the time of day, it was nowhere near full.
 

PHILIPE

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Journey Check is only as good as the info that is input to it. Could be affected by staff workload at the time as one example, especially if busy dealing with severe problems.
 

Bovverboy

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I caught up with the unit as it departed Victoria on the scheduled 1705 journey (156426). Surprisingly, at least to me, bearing in mind the time of day, it was nowhere near full.

For 'surprisingly'. read 'unsurprisingly'. On checking back I see that passengers for Bolton will have done the seemingly sensible thing and caught the 1708 Blackburn. Imagining how packed that would have been, I would think I would have waited for the delayed 1705 myself.
 

prod_pep

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Today's DMU substitutes for 319s include the 1237/1537 Liverpool Lime St - Blackpool North (UID 156), the even hours Manchester Vic. - Preston services and old faithful, the 1528 Liverpool Lime St - Crewe (156420).

319372 spent the afternoon stabled at Lime Street so may have been a failure early on.
 

js1000

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Anyone know why electric 4 carriage 319s are being substituted for inadequate 2 carriage diesel units on the Crewe to Liverpool stoppers - a fully electrified route? Same again this morning. Clearly not an unacceptable state of affairs from both a capacity and environmental perspective.
 

HotelNovember

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Shortage of 319’s, and also shortage of DMU’s, due to being used to cover 195 unavailability, hence the 2 v 4 formation. They’re not doing it just for fun of it.

Would you rather the trains were cancelled completely, rather than have a DMU running on a fully electrified line?
 

Bovverboy

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Anyone know why electric 4 carriage 319s are being substituted for inadequate 2 carriage diesel units on the Crewe to Liverpool stoppers - a fully electrified route? Same again this morning. Clearly not an unacceptable state of affairs from both a capacity and environmental perspective.
Shortage of 319’s, and also shortage of DMU’s, due to being used to cover 195 unavailability, hence the 2 v 4 formation. They’re not doing it just for fun of it.

I'm amazed how many CAF units are on Edge Hill and in Allerton when they just aren't turning up on the services they are meant to be on. The double peak hour service service from the airport to Liverpool today was a single 156. I'll ask again does anyone know what is going on?

The ones on Edge Hill are for actual finishing off of things like corridor connections, steps and fault free running and such aren’t they?

It's unlikely that those at Allerton are there for any of those reasons, it's likely they're there simply waiting to enter service.

Whatever the reason for splitting the Alderley Edge to Wigan/Southport service at Piccadilly, it would have been an opportunity to run the Alderley Edge section with EMUs. Trouble is, Northern is just as short of EMUs at the moment as DMUs.

Joke. Not as if there is a shortage of EMUs nationally. Porterbrook have got 10+ 319s spare.

Now that the 323s have lost the morning Alderley Edge peak duty to DMUs

Diagrammed for a four-car set, I believe (the one occasion I saw it, it was 142+150), and after doing Newton Heath to Alderley Edge ECS, and Alderley Edge to Piccadilly in service, it goes to Stockport CMD, where, according to RTT, it remains until the following morning before being used again.

So,
1) new 195s are standing idle at Allerton;
2) Porterbrook have 319s for lease;
3) a four-car DMU set spends most of its time standing idle at Stockport CMD.

The moral is, there's plenty of rolling stock around, the only issue is, who pays for it to be used.
 
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Bikeman78

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Funny thing, I'd been aware of this Stoke to Blackpool North journey but never thought to wonder what operated it. So much for the notion, 'they'll never allow 319s to Stoke'. Still, it does run comfortably before the start-up of any northbound VT/XC services.
It even calls at Longport, one of only two Northern journeys per day (Mons to Sats) to do so.
It runs to Stoke ECS from Stockport CMD, a stabling point for both 319s and 323s.

So to the list in post #5 can be added:

Stoke-on-Trent to Blackpool North - one single journey per day, Mon to Sat
What's the issue with 319s to Stoke? Back in 2002 they often sent 101s to Stoke on 323 diagrams and they usually kept time.
 

Bovverboy

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Bikeman78, I don't know the answer to your question, but I do sometimes get the feeling that some types of DMU/EMU do come in for unwarranted criticism.

Unusually for a Sunday there has been a 156 (156423) substituting for a 319 on Chat Moss stoppers today. (Yes, DMUs have substituted for 319s on Sundays before, but not very often). I don't know if it was on the route from start of service (unlikely, I think), or what time it went on, although looking at RTT it may have been from 1430. I first saw it working the 1639 ex-Wilmslow.
 

Bevan Price

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My impression is that reliability of 319s seems to have declined a bit compared with when they took over some Liverpool area services some years ago. Seems to be at least one dmu substitution almost every time I use the Liverpool - St. Helens - Wigan NW services.
 

323235

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Back in the early 2000s Stoke paths were much slacker than they are now because there were less Virgin services and they were operated by either 101s, 142s, 309s, 323s and on occasion 150s and 156s.

The 319 operated 0624 Stoke - Blackpool has extra time in the schedule compared to a 323.
 

Bikeman78

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Back in the early 2000s Stoke paths were much slacker than they are now because there were less Virgin services and they were operated by either 101s, 142s, 309s, 323s and on occasion 150s and 156s.

The 319 operated 0624 Stoke - Blackpool has extra time in the schedule compared to a 323.
My 2004 timetable shows 60 minutes Piccadilly to Stoke for the rush hour workings compared with 55 minutes for the standard off peak schedule now. In 2004 they also stopped at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Longport and (sometimes) Etruria, so I'd call that a draw.

The 0624 from Stoke is timed for a 75 mph DMU. I have no doubt that a 319 can beat that schedule.
 

Jamesrob637

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A Stoke to Manchester was showing 2-car this morning on Journey Check. While not entirely specific to 319s, was this error or did a DMU actually work it?
 

Bovverboy

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A Stoke to Manchester was showing 2-car this morning on Journey Check. While not entirely specific to 319s, was this error or did a DMU actually work it?

'Journey Check' says that the 1156 Stoke to Piccadilly is being operated by a two-car something-or-other, so there's nearly half-an-hour available for someone to get to Picc to see what's going on. Actually, 'Journey Check' says that the situation is going to continue for the rest of the diagram.
 

Jamesrob637

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'Journey Check' says that the 1156 Stoke to Piccadilly is being operated by a two-car something-or-other, so there's nearly half-an-hour available for someone to get to Picc to see what's going on. Actually, 'Journey Check' says that the situation is going to continue for the rest of the diagram.

As far as 18:54; the 19:44 to Stoke isn't mentioned. Maybe that can be formed of a 323 which has done its peak duty around Manchester.
 

Puffing Devil

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My impression is that reliability of 319s seems to have declined a bit compared with when they took over some Liverpool area services some years ago. Seems to be at least one dmu substitution almost every time I use the Liverpool - St. Helens - Wigan NW services.

Perhaps it's because they are 30-year-old trains that have been retired once already.....
 

Bovverboy

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As far as 18:54; the 19:44 to Stoke isn't mentioned. Maybe that can be formed of a 323 which has done its peak duty around Manchester.

According to my information the 1944 Stoke is formed from the unit off the 1740 Glossop/Hadfield - that is the regular diagram. I don't know what the ex-Stoke normally does next, if anything, sorry.

EDIT: Story continued below (post #25), also on the '323s with Northern' thread, repeated below.

I clocked the 1854 arrival at Picc and, unsurprisingly, it turned out to be a 323. I say 'unsurprisingly' since I had already traced the diagram back and found that the 1044 Stoke had been formed from the unit standing in Platform 12 - this is the one which usually does the 1721 Stoke, and, of course, it should be a 323. I don't know what ultimately happened to the unit off the 0956 arrival, or the reason for the changeover, but perhaps someone thought that if an EMU was being substituted, it would be being substituted by a 2-car diesel - well, often, it would be!
 
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HotelNovember

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As far as 18:54; the 19:44 to Stoke isn't mentioned. Maybe that can be formed of a 323 which has done its peak duty around Manchester.

According to my information the 1944 Stoke is formed from the unit off the 1740 Glossop/Hadfield - that is the regular diagram. I don't know what the ex-Stoke normally does next, if anything, sorry.

18:54 arrival from Stoke does do 19:44 Man Picc - Stoke normally. That’s what’s diagrammed to happen.

However, must be a step-up/swap later on.

17:40 ex-Glossop/Hadfield does 23:24 Hazel Grove normally. It’s STP’d this week
 

Greybeard33

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The 0624 from Stoke is timed for a 75 mph DMU. I have no doubt that a 319 can beat that schedule.
The 0624 takes 65 minutes to Piccadilly. In the standard hour the xx24 path from Stoke is occupied by a VT Euston to Piccadilly express. Northern can use that path at 0624 because there is no train from London that early.

In the standard hour there are two VT 390s and two XC 221s each way between Piccadilly and Stoke, scheduled so that there is only just enough time to squeeze a 323 stopper between them. The 323 arrives at Stoke at xx39, only 4 minutes ahead of a XC service at xx43. A 319 could not keep to the 323 timings because of its inferior acceleration. And it could not leave Piccadilly any earlier because there is no path available between Piccadilly and Stockport.
 

Bovverboy

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According to 'Journey Check', just one 319 duty is being covered today by a DMU (2-car), it's currently close to completing the 1103 Blackpool - Liverpool, due to go back at 1237.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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According to 'Journey Check', just one 319 duty is being covered today by a DMU (2-car), it's currently close to completing the 1103 Blackpool - Liverpool, due to go back at 1237.

The same 319 diagram (0936 from Liverpool) was a single Pacer today.
A lot of shouting at Wigan when people couldn't board.
 

Bovverboy

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At least two 319 part-diagrams missed yesterday (Friday 23/8/19), the quoted reason did vary, but crew unavailability does seem most likely. One diagram missed from 1241 to 2230, Oxford Road-Hazel Grove-Blackpool-Hazel Grove-Blackpool-Liverpool, the other 1330-1647, Picc-Blackpool-Picc.
I did notice that the reason given over the tannoy at Picc for the cancellation of the 1747 departure for Hazel Grove was 'lack of an available unit'. I can only hope that the Great British Travelling Public knows what a 'unit' is.
 
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