ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

scotraildriver said:
Staff are certainly getting seriously fed up now. It's becoming abundantly clear to everyone that these trains are simply "done". The heavy rain over the last few days has highlighted almost every coach and power car leaks including refurbs. The roofs are just corroded away. Electrics tripping out constantly, toilet header tanks literally rusted through the list goes on. I don't know what the solution is as they are still great trains but having driven them for 18 months now I am convinced they are simply too far gone now.

The solution is to abandon the programme at the earliest opportunity and place an order for new stock. They are great trains, but have had their day. Nostalgia isn't worth it when the train doesn't work very well.

I still haven't been on a refurb HST yet despite travelling weekly on the HML.

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RLBH · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
The solution is to abandon the programme at the earliest opportunity and place an order for new stock.

That's a hindsight solution. If the HST contract is cancelled, there will be a grand total of nothing delivered for two years while the procurement is run, new stock designed, space found on production lines, the new stock qualified to run, and crew training done. During that period, there will be no improvement on the current situation.

Even on the most pessimistic estimates, at least some refurbished HSTs should enter service at some point in the next two years. When they actually show up, by all accounts, they're good trains. There just aren't enough of them. Cancelling the programme will mean that there's a longer period of inadequate stock.

If we could turn back the clock to 2014, something else might have been done, but that's just wishful thinking. The least bad solution to the issues as they stand today is to resolve the issues with the HST refurbishment programme and get as many as possible delivered as soon as possible.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

I am suggesting the programme is abandoned at the earliest opportunity, not just stopped with no other plan in place.

Again I have to challenge some of the views on here. If you note just above, a driver of the HSTs has said they are "done". So by all accounts, they are not good. Certainly selective analysis of the situation provides justification for continuing on the current plan. Yes, "get as many as possible delivered as soon as possible", but that has proven to be not a good strategy so there is no point in investing resources in it beyond the bare minimum.

hwl · 6 Aug 2019

haggishunter said:
I'm making an assumption here, former GWR mark 3s were picked because they were available sooner. Given the delays in refurbishment, LNER mark 3's are becoming available, given the difference in routes operated they ought to be in better condition. If the GWR Mk 3s are beyond it and that would appear to be at least part of the reason for the length of time refurbs are taking is there any potential get out clause for ScotRail with the leasing to go after the best mark 3s wherever they come from.

With modern electronic power equipment 3 phase to DC for train supply for Mark 4s in the power cars shouldn't be rocket science or space constrained?

There doesn't look to be any short solution to improve this situation - rolling stock introductions across the UK or both new and refurbished stock seem to be chaotic at the moment. Is it simply in the social media age there is more info out there or is there a fundamental problem by both the complexity of the UK rail system structure and loss of skills and experience?

Problems both real and social media leading to better information propagation combined with TOC promising silly dates/timelines to DfT...

Angel/ Wabtec have the IP for the refurbed Mk3 so all the victim power cars and coaches are Angel owned (or First Owned in the GWR case).
The LNER HSTs are mostly Porterbrook owned.
All the Mk4 are Eversholt owned.

The sensible solution is rethink and Mk4 and further modified power cars.

scotraildriver · 6 Aug 2019

haggishunter said:
I'm making an assumption here, former GWR mark 3s were picked because they were available sooner. Given the delays in refurbishment, LNER mark 3's are becoming available, given the difference in routes operated they ought to be in better condition. If the GWR Mk 3s are beyond it and that would appear to be at least part of the reason for the length of time refurbs are taking is there any potential get out clause for ScotRail with the leasing to go after the best mark 3s wherever they come from.

With modern electronic power equipment 3 phase to DC for train supply for Mark 4s in the power cars shouldn't be rocket science or space constrained?

There doesn't look to be any short solution to improve this situation - rolling stock introductions across the UK or both new and refurbished stock seem to be chaotic at the moment. Is it simply in the social media age there is more info out there or is there a fundamental problem by both the complexity of the UK rail system structure and loss of skills and experience?

A few months back a Scotrail and LNER HST were side by side at Edinburgh. From the overbridge the difference in the condition of the roofs was remarkable. The LNER ones looked like new whilst the Scotail ones were a patchwork quilt of corrosion and repairs. Perhaps the LNER ones might become a better option.

chuff chuff · 6 Aug 2019

As bad as many of the power cars and coaches are I'd hate to go back to some other mind numbing DMU the like we have suffered.As a driver the performance of these short formed sets has been most enjoyable and has brought back some real train driving.

hexagon789 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
I have noticed a thing. You often use phrases such as "should be fine". What are you basing that on?

I probably do, but perhaps if I explain my reasoning?

170 air-con works well, the only real issue is with cold draughts from the doorways in winter.

158 air-con is pretty poor, to point the emergency hopper windows often have to be opened in summer, the exception being 158s fitted with replacement systems which work properly.

Mk3 air-con generally works fine, but when the door droplights are left open it affects the efficiency of the air-con, that is the main issue with it, so by removing the presence of opening droplights by replacing them with sliding doors, you are removing the primary source of problems with the air-conditioning and therefore on the refurbs it should be more reliable and indeed more effective.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

Sorry I don't think I explained my point well. Thanks for your post by the way.

It's more around language. I am wondering "should be fine" is used if you don't have data to support that? The theory is fine but beyond hope, I don't think general statements like that should be used. There are real problems with this programme. Just hoping it will be ok is one of the issues encountered.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

chuff chuff said:
As bad as many of the power cars and coaches are I'd hate to go back to some other mind numbing DMU the like we have suffered.As a driver the performance of these short formed sets has been most enjoyable and has brought back some real train driving.

Me too. There can be no backwards step to 170s or 158s but ironically, the lack of HSTs has actually meant there is more of that. It's a separate discussion what should replace the HSTs but replaced, they certainly need to be!

Northhighland · 6 Aug 2019

CJSwan said:
Only 8 out of 18 HSTs out today. With a 158 covering a diagram which includes the 17:36 Edinburgh to Aberdeen (that’ll be cosy)... It’s really not great. Little wonder passengers and staff are becoming utterly scunnered at the situation.

Why such a small number? Surely we can expect better reliability than that or is it still staff training?

hexagon789 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
Sorry I don't think I explained my point well. Thanks for your post by the way.

It's more around language. I am wondering "should be fine" is used if you don't have data to support that? The theory is fine but beyond hope, I don't think general statements like that should be used. There are real problems with this programme. Just hoping it will be ok is one of the issues encountered.

I will freely admit I'm quite guilty of using 'fine' or 'alright' rather liberally - essentially I felt that because the main reason for Mk3s air-con being ineffective was being removed it would improve reliability and effectiveness.

Of course this may not be the case, but I think with the entire project one needs a little bit of hoping.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
I will freely admit I'm quite guilty of using 'fine' or 'alright' rather liberally - essentially I felt that because the main reason for Mk3s air-con being ineffective was being removed it would improve reliability and effectiveness.

Of course this may not be the case, but I think with the entire project one needs a little bit of hoping.

I disagree entirely. I think it needs honest and open analysis with an eye to the future unclouded by nostalgia. When the A9 gets dualled, that is when the buses will really cut into numbers.

scotraildriver · 6 Aug 2019

chuff chuff said:
As bad as many of the power cars and coaches are I'd hate to go back to some other mind numbing DMU the like we have suffered.As a driver the performance of these short formed sets has been most enjoyable and has brought back some real train driving.

I agree completely. I love driving them. But the amount of hassle I've had lately with faults due to "oldness" ie corrosion, tired electrics etc is highly frustrating.

47271 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
When the A9 gets dualled, that is when the buses will really cut into numbers.

Knowing what's going on with dualling plans for certain sections of A9 at the moment, if I was going to put money on it I'd say that the HSTs will have collapsed in a pile of rust and replaced before we have continuous dual carriageway between Perth and Inverness. I'm only half joking, just look at what's going on with consultation on the Pass of Birnam to Tay Crossing section. Project complete by 2025, I don't think so.

Rail's competitiveness on the corridor is undermined more by shortcomings in infrastructure than the stock used. Trains types can come and go but lack of capacity is the long term killer. Reinstated loops at Ballinluig, Killiecrankie and Etteridge is the least we should be demanding .

Meanwhile, I totally agree that the situation with HST implementation is a farce. Trains that you can't use in heavy rain, don't make me laugh.

43096 · 6 Aug 2019

hwl said:
The LNER HSTs are mostly Porterbrook owned.

Nope. 10 sets Angel owned, 5 Porterbrook.

alangla · 6 Aug 2019

I’d love to see the annual leasing and maintenance costs for the HSTs vs a follow-on order of 802s or TPE type Mk5&68 sets. I suspect the difference isn’t that great.

haggishunter · 6 Aug 2019

alangla said:
I’d love to see the annual leasing and maintenance costs for the HSTs vs a follow-on order of 802s or TPE type Mk5&68 sets. I suspect the difference isn’t that great.

As I understand the situation neither 80Xs or Mk3,4 or 5 + class 68 could match the HST timings. Without the HSTs increased frequencies and reduced journey times planned fall down, particularly on the HML and Aberdeen-Inverness lines.

I recall some chat here that the Highland Chieftain could remain an HST because an 9 coach Azuma couldn’t keep to a 9 car HST timings on the HML.

Same thing comes up beyond 5+2 HSTs, but there was supposed to be 8 more HML trains a day from Dec. If there’s not the HSTs available then the HML improvements can’t come about without much greater infrastructure investments.

What should be coming next after the HSTs is an electrified inter7city Network!

InvHst · 6 Aug 2019

haggishunter said:
As I understand the situation neither 80Xs or Mk3,4 or 5 + class 68 could match the HST timings. Without the HSTs increased frequencies and reduced journey times planned fall down, particularly on the HML and Aberdeen-Inverness lines.

I recall some chat here that the Highland Chieftain could remain an HST because an 9 coach Azuma couldn’t keep to a 9 car HST timings on the HML.

Same thing comes up beyond 5+2 HSTs, but there was supposed to be 8 more HML trains a day from Dec. If there’s not the HSTs available then the HML improvements can’t come about without much greater infrastructure investments.

What should be coming next after the HSTs is an electrified inter7city Network!

Chieftain will not be staying a HST as the same problem occurs to aberdeen but azuma will go live sometime end of year.

Back on topic number of HST failures today as well doesn't look very impressive when they should be well on top of this situation by now.......

Rick1984 · 6 Aug 2019

Clansman said:
It's definitley possible, no question about it - Mk3s aren't exactly in short numbers these days.

On the seats issue, the only way a TGS could be used so as not to lose seats would be as a sixth coach.

Sorry meant to say could most be made up to 6 cars

hexagon789 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
When the A9 gets dualled, that is when the buses will really cut into numbers.

It may well do so, if it does it could persuade Transport Scotland to rethink the specifics of any future franchise.

As with anything though you can have all the facts, but I don't think any of us can do more than speculate on anything really, nothing is completely certain.

Geoff DC · 6 Aug 2019

What I find odd is that the GWR HST GTI's seem to have been well received & with minimal issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-to-operate-short-hstgti-sets.145727/

Yet in Scotland a similar project seems to have imploded - could it be that in the case of GWR they have had many years experience with the stock and know how to keep on top of problems?

Northhighland · 6 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
It may well do so, if it does it could persuade Transport Scotland to rethink the specifics of any future franchise.

As with anything though you can have all the facts, but I don't think any of us can do more than speculate on anything really, nothing is completely certain.

Not so sure the A9 upgrade will make that much difference. I doubt it will be complete any time this side of 2030.

Even when it is complete I would still use the train as it is 6 hours to Edinburgh or Glasgow round trip. If you drive that is lost time if the train isn’t rammed you can get 6 hours work done. That is worth a lot.

So I can’t see buses or cars taking that many numbers of the train.

hexagon789 · 6 Aug 2019

Geoff DC said:
What I find odd is that the GWR HST GTI's seem to have been well received & with minimal issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-to-operate-short-hstgti-sets.145727/

Yet in Scotland a similar project seems to have imploded - could it be that in the case of GWR they have had many years experience with the stock and know how to keep on top of problems?

Certainly other than the doors, everything else is old hat.

Northhighland said:
Not so sure the A9 upgrade will make that much difference. I doubt it will be complete any time this side of 2030.

Even when it is complete I would still use the train as it is 6 hours to Edinburgh or Glasgow round trip. If you drive that is lost time if the train isn’t rammed you can get 6 hours work done. That is worth a lot.

So I can’t see buses or cars taking that many numbers of the train.

Personally I've no idea one way or the other, simply I prefer the train. Even with reams of statistics, facts, figures and what have you none of us can make any more than an educated guess or assumption as to what might happen.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
It may well do so, if it does it could persuade Transport Scotland to rethink the specifics of any future franchise.

As with anything though you can have all the facts, but I don't think any of us can do more than speculate on anything really, nothing is completely certain.

This is what I find perplexing. What facts are you seeking? We have a lot of facts. The programme is miles behind, the product delivered is not reliable, the training is very late, the HSTs offer the worst position re bike spaces, the reservations system is a shambles.

Posting endless ambiguous statements saying we can only speculate is pointless. We have a lot of facts to hand but I suspect the in-built nostalgia prevents many from recognising them.

hexagon789 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
This is what I find perplexing. What facts are you seeking? We have a lot of facts. The programme is miles behind, the product delivered is not reliable, the training is very late, the HSTs offer the worst position re bike spaces, the reservations system is a shambles.

Posting endless ambiguous statements saying we can only speculate is pointless. We have a lot of facts to hand but I suspect the in-built nostalgia prevents many from recognising them.

Well have some facts yes, can anyone say what use they are? Do they give us a clear, definite date, no they do not.

That's what I'm getting at, it's nothing to do with capacity, bike spaces, catering, the thing which don't find readily available is a clear date for when the programme will be completed.

47271 · 6 Aug 2019

Highland37 said:
This is what I find perplexing. What facts are you seeking? We have a lot of facts. The programme is miles behind, the product delivered is not reliable, the training is very late, the HSTs offer the worst position re bike spaces, the reservations system is a shambles.

Posting endless ambiguous statements saying we can only speculate is pointless. We have a lot of facts to hand but I suspect the in-built nostalgia prevents many from recognising them.

To be fair the point was made in relation to the impact of A9 dualling versus rail use, not the ongoing failures of the HST programme.

They're two completely different things with impacts in ten or more years time versus impacts now. At the risk of repeating myself, lack of line capacity is the main rail weakness exposed by the A9, not a few leaky old mk3s with wonky door sockets and a lack of cycle storage.

Killingworth · 6 Aug 2019

Geoff DC said:
What I find odd is that the GWR HST GTI's seem to have been well received & with minimal issues
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-to-operate-short-hstgti-sets.145727/

Yet in Scotland a similar project seems to have imploded - could it be that in the case of GWR they have had many years experience with the stock and know how to keep on top of problems?

Perish the thought that GWR might have selected the best stock for their own short HSTs. If I had that option I'd not want to keep corroded vehicles when better were available.

Given Cross Country units may have similar issues if regularly exposed to salt spray.

43096 · 6 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
Perish the thought that GWR might have selected the best stock for their own short HSTs. If I had that option I'd not want to keep corroded vehicles when better were available.

Given Cross Country units may have similar issues if regularly exposed to salt spray.

It’s actually, ultimately, Angel’s decision.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

hexagon789 said:
Well have some facts yes, can anyone say what use they are? Do they give us a clear, definite date, no they do not.

That's what I'm getting at, it's nothing to do with capacity, bike spaces, catering, the thing which don't find readily available is a clear date for when the programme will be completed.

You are never going to get that and even if someone says 19th May 2022, what difference will it make? The reality needs to be dealt with. The programme is and has not delivered.

Highland37 · 6 Aug 2019

47271 said:
To be fair the point was made in relation to the impact of A9 dualling versus rail use, not the ongoing failures of the HST programme.

They're two completely different things with impacts in ten or more years time versus impacts now. At the risk of repeating myself, lack of line capacity is the main rail weakness exposed by the A9, not a few leaky old mk3s with wonky door sockets and a lack of cycle storage.

Full agree with you. Killiekrankie Tunnel is a good example. Every train, knackered HSTs and over crowded 158s, need to head through at 30mph and it's also a tiny gauge. Freight is where the road will really make a difference.

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