The Horror of Pacers

YorksDMU · 6 Aug 2019

Well, it’s good to know the first one has now been withdrawn. Now for those others over next weekend....

RailUK Forums

BigCj34 · 6 Aug 2019

rick9525 said:
According to Twitter handle @PacerPreacher the first pacer has been officially retired 142025 due to engine failure. It was due to retire in 6 days anyway. A few others go this week.

There's definitely a Simpsons reference in that.

Sprinter107 · 6 Aug 2019

TheSel said:
To be fair, Class 139s are quite good for that, too!

Lol. And the 139 a much rougher ride. The 139 makes the 142 seem like a riding along a billiard table.

Jozhua · 7 Aug 2019

My first experience on a Pacer was from Sheffield on the Hope Valley Line. The 5 or so minute trip through the Totley tunnel in summer with all the windows open was less than pleasent...

A few weeks ago, I ran to get on a pacer at Manchester Victoria with a friend. We then were sat waiting while a guy in orange and the conductor attempted to solve an issue. I said to my friend we should probably jusr change trains, but he insisted on staying on this one. The next train then left and the one after, before I finally convinced him to get off the damm thing after it had attempted to pull away and spewed out piles of smoke.

Had to catch a bench seated Pacer to Leeds a couple of days ago due to Hope Valley Line closure. To be fair, it looked bad for a 1 hour 15 minute journey, but it was quiet enough and I managed to spread me and my luggage across the three person seated area, allowing me to position my legs sideways and relax a bit. The journey was mostly at around 50mph and was considerably more pleasant than an overcrowded anything else.

ed1971 · 7 Aug 2019

Harpers Tate said:
We all have differing opinions and I can quite see how "Pacers" are the subject of so much derision. However, from my perspective, there are far bigger issues at play than the number of wheels/axles (nowadays, as most track is CWR and rides well enough). The interior ambience of 150s (and the various EMUs made to the same basic body pattern) is the worst out there. And the utterly ludicrous noise levels on 150, 153, 155, 156 probably exceed industrial safety rules i.e. would be illegal in a working environment - especially if it's hot and the windows are open. I would far rather ride on a Pacer train - as long as the seats are suitably spaced (which they mostly aren't) than on a 150 with them crammed in (which they are).

Spot on. The claustrophobic nature of the 150s and the engine noise levels has always caused me a lot of stress and anxiety when travelling on them, especially on a hot day. The 156s are the best of the bunch that you mentioned, although the narrow doors extend boarding times.

As 150/1s will be mostly taking over Pacer duties in my locality, I think that I will only be travelling by train when absolutely essential once the 142s have gone.

ed1971 · 7 Aug 2019

507 001 said:
It’s a widely accepted view on this forum that they saved precisely nothing.

They weren’t even particularly cheap to build when you take into account the new engines and gearboxes they received.

Talking to a retired guard in Leeds a few months back. He used to work the Class 141s and had nothing but praise for them. He said that it is a shame they were not launched earlier to save more lines from closure.

It is certainly true that the original SCG gearboxes were extremely flawed and BR didn't get much use out of them. However, the Leyland TL11 engines did last 6 to 11 years before being replaced by Cummins LT10Rs which is not bad. BR found that it was more economical to buy new Cummins engines than overall the Leyland units.
The original Class 142 Deans four leaf doors were not rigid enough and were also replaced in the mid 1990s by the Peters two leaf doors as fitted to 143s and 144s from new. Despite this, these also had their entire doors and mechanisms replaced at the same time. I don't know why.

Parallel · 7 Aug 2019

The 143s in Devon and the 142s/143s in South Wales I find are fine to travel on. The ones in South Wales feel like they need a deep clean and of course you have the age old problem of poor capacity, but they are fine when they are doubled up.

The ones in the North are less good. The 144s are OK, the car seat 142s are probably the least bad of the Northern 142s. I’m not a fan of the bus seat ones and I’ve had the misfortune of using a Merseytravel Pacer between Manchester and Southport last year. The train was near empty but in the end I chose to stand up for comfort (I’m fairly tall)

Sprinter107 · 7 Aug 2019

The Merseyrail ones are really dreadful to travel on. The seat backs seem to be at right angles to the seat cushion. Why ever would someone choose such a seat. I prefer the bus type seats.

Sprinter107 · 7 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
Spot on. The claustrophobic nature of the 150s and the engine noise levels has always caused me a lot of stress and anxiety when travelling on them, especially on a hot day. The 156s are the best of the bunch that you mentioned, although the narrow doors extend boarding times.

As 150/1s will be mostly taking over Pacer duties in my locality, I think that I will only be travelling by train when absolutely essential once the 142s have gone.

I prefer a 150 to a 156. I've never been able to take to the 156s. They take ages to load and unload, which isnt too bad on faster services, but no good on suburban trains. I suppose itll be a mix of 150s and 156s to replace the Pacers.

ed1971 · 7 Aug 2019

Sprinter107 said:
The Merseyrail ones are really dreadful to travel on. The seat backs seem to be at right angles to the seat cushion. Why ever would someone choose such a seat. I prefer the bus type seats.

The dreadful Merseyrail seats were the same as those fitted to new MTL buses bought in the mid 1990s, such as the Wright Endurance bodied Volvo B10Bs. Preserved 6592 (N592 CKA) is shown here:
http://nwvrt.info/vehicle-collection/merseybus-mtl/6592-n592-cka/

XC victim · 7 Aug 2019

ed1971 said:
Spot on. The claustrophobic nature of the 150s and the engine noise levels has always caused me a lot of stress and anxiety when travelling on them, especially on a hot day. The 156s are the best of the bunch that you mentioned, although the narrow doors extend boarding times.

As 150/1s will be mostly taking over Pacer duties in my locality, I think that I will only be travelling by train when absolutely essential once the 142s have gone.

I completely agree about the class 150’s. I remember I really didn’t like them when they were introduced and still feel the same about them. The seats are by far the worst of any train, and usually broken. So many seats without a window view, the windows are usually so dirty they are impossible to see out of anyway. You get blasted with hot and cold air at the same time, they are noisy and just a terrible ride. Give me a pacer any day.

When the class 155’s & 156’s were introduced I preferred the class 155 but I have to admit they have not aged well, and the class 156 is still a good train.

Much of the anti-pacer stuff is just a bandwagon, and whilst I do agree the class 142’s are not a good train unless you are going round an extremely tight curve (Carnforth the example I often travel on) they are quite adequate trains. The class 144’s were always better quality than the 142’s but with the current seats really are quite a nice train to travel on. I will probably miss them, especially if I have to endure a class 150 instead

Harpers Tate · 7 Aug 2019

It would not surprise me if, when "they" finally announce the departure of the last Pacer, customers start writing to the press or the TOC or commenting on forums, not understanding why we still have these awful "old" trains (with new seats, maybe). "I thought they had all gone..........."

ed1971 · 7 Aug 2019

Harpers Tate said:
It would not surprise me if, when "they" finally announce the departure of the last Pacer, customers start writing to the press or the TOC or commenting on forums, not understanding why we still have these awful "old" trains (with new seats, maybe). "I thought they had all gone..........."

As 150s stopped carrying the 'SPRINTER' logo on their sides in the early 1990s and Pacers never carried such a logo, the general travelling public could be forgiven for getting the two types mixed up, considering that they are of similar antiquity.

Jozhua · 7 Aug 2019

To be fair, I think the pacers are so iconic that the majority of the travelling public will be able to tell them apart!

Especially commuters who will notice the different trains on their day to day commute.

ed1971 · 7 Aug 2019

Jozhua said:
To be fair, I think the pacers are so iconic that the majority of the travelling public will be able to tell them apart!

Especially commuters who will notice the different trains on their day to day commute.

I suppose it depends what part of Northernland you are in, as many routes out of Manchester that are operated by 142s have seen 150s and 156s too all along.

Sprinter107 · 7 Aug 2019

Passengers can tell the difference. I remember working a 156 to Stratford, vice the usual 150, and a passenger who alighted at Hall Green complained, asking me why I'd brought "this old thing instead of our usual train. " he was a bit taken a back when I told him it was slightly newer than his usual train. I always preferred the 150 though too.

Bungle158 · 7 Aug 2019

In the west, we called them nodding donkeys. Cheap and nasty things with rather strange door controls. I agree, they plugged a gap at the time, but should have been pensioned off years ago.

STEVIEBOY1 · 8 Aug 2019

It is amazing how many comments have been put up here in the past few days.

All being well I am going to the North Of England next week and I think a trip is planned to use a pacer again around the Saltburn area.

boxy321 · 8 Aug 2019

How far up from the West Midlands do I need to go to ride one of these? Now the 2 ex-Coventry local 153s are doing my Solihull commute they've lost their novelty value so I need something new. Do they smell as foul inside as the dog boxes? What about noise? 153's have excellent heating so that will be something to look forward to on a pacer (is it as bad as most buses???).

cjmillsnun · 8 Aug 2019

irish_rail said:
Give me a pacer over an 700 any day of the week!

This. Not keen on Desiro City stock at all

GoneSouth · 8 Aug 2019

Had what I hope is my last ride on a 142 a few days ago, windows open, very noisy screeching round the corners around Brighouse, seats with absolutely no leg room (actually less uncomfortable than the bus seats they replaced) and awful lighting. I won’t miss them on my visits to the north. Not as bad as the ones in Wales though.

Anybody know when the GWR and TfW ones will be binned too? Not looking forward to bouncing around Devon when I visit in a couple of months.

Now with the rose tinted glasses on, when they arrived back in the 80s, the Pacers were replacing some pretty filthy run down old DMUs so were welcomed at the time. Now they are as old as the units they replaced it’s definitely time to go!

Actually now I think about it, the seats on those original DMUs were very well sprung and made the ride just as bouncy as pacers, although that was purely because of the seat and not the whole carriage. :lol:

Whattraintoday · 8 Aug 2019

boxy321 said:
How far up from the West Midlands do I need to go to ride one of these? Now the 2 ex-Coventry local 153s are doing my Solihull commute they've lost their novelty value so I need something new. Do they smell as foul inside as the dog boxes? What about noise? 153's have excellent heating so that will be something to look forward to on a pacer (is it as bad as most buses???).

Sheffield or Manchester should do you.
They don't smell as bad as 153s, but the heaters are surrogate radiators so the summer setting is 'Full on'. Bring a battery-powered fan if you're coming in summer.

YorksDMU · 8 Aug 2019

Pacer 144012, which is the PRM’d one, with the awful Fainsa seats and full on heating, formed the 17.18 from Hull to Bridlington today. I can only say how glad I was not on it, as the train I was on, two 153’s arrived into Beverley station as it departed for Bridlington.

Chris217 · 10 Aug 2019

I might start a topic on
How horrible are 150s lol.

I wonder how many services will be cancelled next week for shortages of stock?

All you anti Pacer brigade would have them all scrapped today without facing any consequences

Hope you all like buses!

This thread is all negative yet again!

Long live Pacers.

randyrippley · 10 Aug 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
This is often said, but I'm not sure how true it is. Closures would have been politically unacceptable even in the 1980s, with the alternative to Pacers being life-extention work on the 1950s DMUs they replaced.

They brought costs down, so may have helped with service improvements and reopenings in PTE areas, but I'm not convinced they actually saved any routes from closure.

The DMUs which survived to be replaced by Pacers had already been refurbished / life-extended, those that weren't were mainly condemned due to asbestots. Its doubtful whether another life-extension would have been feasible.

But, there's a lot of forgetfulness in this thread. The reality is that by the time the Pacers were introduced the remaining classic DMU fleet were on their last legs. Clapped out suspension, engines which regularly failed and spares that were hard to come by. It wasn't unusual to ride on a set which had a banging engine due to unrepaired head gasket or exhaust manifold leaks. Even more common for some of the engines simply not to run........The upholstery was collapsed - horsehair cushions have a finite life expectation, while the combined efforts of years of cleaners failing to clean had rendered them internally filthy.
The Pacers when introduced were clean, had engines which worked, lights which worked, seats which didn't collapse or leave you covered in diesel fumes, powered doors, were better riding than the classic DMUs, and didn't break down - or at least not until the problems with the SC gearboxes emerged.
In short they were a heck of an improvement on what had gone before.
The problems with the Pacers now boil down to the same problem as with the DMU fleet they replaced: they were kept in service for far too long after they became life expired, in both cases by around 50% longer than the intended service life

Trainfan2019 · 10 Aug 2019

I prefer the pacers when I'm travelling between Sheffield and Manchester. They're old but as long as they turn up and I get a seat then that's good enough for me.

xotGD · 10 Aug 2019

randyrippley said:
The DMUs which survived to be replaced by Pacers had already been refurbished / life-extended, those that weren't were mainly condemned due to asbestots. Its doubtful whether another life-extension would have been feasible.

But, there's a lot of forgetfulness in this thread. The reality is that by the time the Pacers were introduced the remaining classic DMU fleet were on their last legs. Clapped out suspension, engines which regularly failed and spares that were hard to come by. It wasn't unusual to ride on a set which had a banging engine due to unrepaired head gasket or exhaust manifold leaks. Even more common for some of the engines simply not to run........The upholstery was collapsed - horsehair cushions have a finite life expectation, while the combined efforts of years of cleaners failing to clean had rendered them internally filthy.
The Pacers when introduced were clean, had engines which worked, lights which worked, seats which didn't collapse or leave you covered in diesel fumes, powered doors, were better riding than the classic DMUs, and didn't break down - or at least not until the problems with the SC gearboxes emerged.
In short they were a heck of an improvement on what had gone before.
The problems with the Pacers now boil down to the same problem as with the DMU fleet they replaced: they were kept in service for far too long after they became life expired, in both cases by around 50% longer than the intended service life

Those of us who experienced the introduction of 143s in the North East would take a different view. They were rubbish from Day 1, failing for all sorts of reasons. Not only did we get to enjoy loco hauled Mark 1s but a random selection of first generation DMUs had to be drafted in to make up for the lack of working bendy-buses.

Shockingly bad.

Mogster · 10 Aug 2019

randyrippley said:
The DMUs which survived to be replaced by Pacers had already been refurbished / life-extended, those that weren't were mainly condemned due to asbestots. Its doubtful whether another life-extension would have been feasible.

But, there's a lot of forgetfulness in this thread. The reality is that by the time the Pacers were introduced the remaining classic DMU fleet were on their last legs. Clapped out suspension, engines which regularly failed and spares that were hard to come by. It wasn't unusual to ride on a set which had a banging engine due to unrepaired head gasket or exhaust manifold leaks. Even more common for some of the engines simply not to run........The upholstery was collapsed - horsehair cushions have a finite life expectation, while the combined efforts of years of cleaners failing to clean had rendered them internally filthy.
The Pacers when introduced were clean, had engines which worked, lights which worked, seats which didn't collapse or leave you covered in diesel fumes, powered doors, were better riding than the classic DMUs, and didn't break down - or at least not until the problems with the SC gearboxes emerged.
In short they were a heck of an improvement on what had gone before.
The problems with the Pacers now boil down to the same problem as with the DMU fleet they replaced: they were kept in service for far too long after they became life expired, in both cases by around 50% longer than the intended service life

My father was a Wigan - Manchester commuter in the 70s and 80s, as I am now. I vividly remember him being horrified when the MK1 DMUs and Loco hauled Mk2 coach stock were replaced by Pacers...

The DMUs and Mk2 coaches may have been old and scruffy but they were very comfortable, decent riding and warm in winter. I remember them myself when I started commuting in the early 90s, the 47s and Mk2 coaches are by far the best stock we’ve every had on the Southport line... The Pacers and 150s are horrible trains...

yorksrob · 10 Aug 2019

I won't miss finding a seat on a 142 then discovering that the luggage rack is on the wrong side of the carriage.

Jozhua · 10 Aug 2019

I think the best feature of a pacer is that the buttons to open the door face in the opposite direction to the door and then when the door opens it flies in your face. Truly a well thought out experience.

The Horror of Pacers

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