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MML Electrification: progress updates

Mikey C

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I doubt even the Green party are campaigning for 100% electrification anyway, so to me the petition is a bit silly. And even if the government acted on it, they'd probably give it one of those "by 2070" deadlines which all politicians use to make it sound as if they are doing something, without having to actually spend anything now!
 
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Jozhua

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My god, the level of cynicism is reaching a high. Has opinion of government/DfT reach such lows?

Yes. After they cancelled electrification in the Midlands, South Wales, Pennines and Lake district quoting "improvements in bi-mode technology", cancelled Piccadilly 15/16 and said capacity increases could be sought through a "digital railway" and also said that replacing Pacers would offer "Poor value for money". Never heard such terrible excuses in my life. Just be honest and say you've run out of money because you can't manage things properly and keep suddenly stopping and starting projects with almost zero cohesion.
 

Legolash2o

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Silly Question.

On one of the pics with the new looking green metal footbridge (pic 5). Isn't there a risk of electricity jumping from the OHLE cables to the bridge and electrocute anyone on it?

y4mVVhMm93XtkmNmXlqdTKZ4-t1qGLk_26uOOnoRYw4_KsOojLj01t7vziWAFhq1fbUiCXkHq_OiXAgTA4HVE3sfT-VMihB78bMG5iEvRXv0EXnnSiVhnk1_wx0tBqe3OWAFqqd2xmcXYLwqURZuqKcbPRgc3ggtlA-735WKvRoghRvzINXaB-x-ZFSWOMrJP6UgPe0UgCkxmN2jGAkybRObQ
 

GRALISTAIR

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Short answer not 0.000 (zero) risk of electricity jumping that distance but shall we say the risk tends to zero. That is what all the fuss has been about - CLEARANCES. If in the 1 in ten trillion chance it should jump, the bridge is heavily equipotential bonded so zero risk of electrocution.
 

hwl

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Silly Question.

On one of the pics with the new looking green metal footbridge (pic 5). Isn't there a risk of electricity jumping from the OHLE cables to the bridge and electrocute anyone on it?

1mm /kV in dry air so even at max voltage oodles of safety margin. The biggest issue on margin would be PAN uplift. To get electrocuted you need a potential difference across you so if fully on the bridge no issue in the same way that birds can land on the 3rd rail.
 

Bald Rick

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Also note that helpfully on a bridge is the manufacturer of the ‘protective coating’. Although this is more about protection the steel on the bridge from the oxidising agents (air and water), one suspects that it also has lower conductivity than the steel it is protecting.
 

The Ham

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Yes. After they cancelled electrification in the Midlands, South Wales, Pennines and Lake district quoting "improvements in bi-mode technology", cancelled Piccadilly 15/16 and said capacity increases could be sought through a "digital railway" and also said that replacing Pacers would offer "Poor value for money". Never heard such terrible excuses in my life. Just be honest and say you've run out of money because you can't manage things properly and keep suddenly stopping and starting projects with almost zero cohesion.

To be fair after much pressure they did decide to replace the Pacers.

Although I do agree that it's likely to have limited impact there's little harm in signing it, if nothing else the response could be used to further hit government with.

Even a wishy washy commitment (through a parliamentary debate) to do so, such as "by 2070 we will have made significant progress towards having a plan for a 100% electrified railway" (which uses a lot of words to not promise to do anything very much) would make it harder to roll back on plans to electrify more of the network.
 

edwin_m

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I doubt even the Green party are campaigning for 100% electrification anyway, so to me the petition is a bit silly. And even if the government acted on it, they'd probably give it one of those "by 2070" deadlines which all politicians use to make it sound as if they are doing something, without having to actually spend anything now!
Electrification of the Heart of Wales line (to take an extreme example) would be a negative because the environmental cost of the energy and resources to make and install all that equipment and maintain/renew it over time would heavily outweigh the elimination of emissions from four or five diesel engines.
 

twpsaesneg

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Silly Question.

On one of the pics with the new looking green metal footbridge (pic 5). Isn't there a risk of electricity jumping from the OHLE cables to the bridge and electrocute anyone on it?
Stacks of clearance there, plus once the droppers and contact wire are added the catenary profile will drop significantly.
 

Mikey C

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To be fair after much pressure they did decide to replace the Pacers.

Although I do agree that it's likely to have limited impact there's little harm in signing it, if nothing else the response could be used to further hit government with.

Even a wishy washy commitment (through a parliamentary debate) to do so, such as "by 2070 we will have made significant progress towards having a plan for a 100% electrified railway" (which uses a lot of words to not promise to do anything very much) would make it harder to roll back on plans to electrify more of the network.

But a politician in 2050 let alone 2025 doesn't have to follow promises made in 2020. Circumstances change, and so do policies.

Indeed a party could explicitly say in their manifesto that they'd "review the electrification programme to evaluate its cost and environmental effectiveness" which would give them complete cover to do what they wanted
 

The Ham

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Electrification of the Heart of Wales line (to take an extreme example) would be a negative because the environmental cost of the energy and resources to make and install all that equipment and maintain/renew it over time would heavily outweigh the elimination of emissions from four or five diesel engines.

Two things, you are looking at current service patterns so it could be more than that in the future, especially if we are taking 50 years in the future.

Secondly and more importantly if the wording was "fully electric powered traction" then you could use battery trains to bridge largish gaps in the wires where it wasn't viable to provide them. However given that there's likely to be tram trains for the valleys you could just use a lightweight tram system with (say) a 60mph limit and it'll have little overall impact.
 

edwin_m

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Two things, you are looking at current service patterns so it could be more than that in the future, especially if we are taking 50 years in the future.
But based on what we know now the environmental case to electrify the Heart of Wales is strongly negative so it would be foolish to adopt any sort of promise to electrify that includes routes like this. That could change if there is a big shift in environmental costs or an increase in the service, though it's hard to see the latter being enough to justify electrification on either environmental or financial grounds.
 

59CosG95

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In other, more positive news in keeping with the construction progress, there have been several deliveries of ballast & sleepers over the last month to the Sharnbrook Junction area - this week, I believe the Slow line between Sharnbrook & Wellingborough is closed to allow the 4th track to be installed within Sharnbrook Tunnel.
 

WymoWanderer

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....this week, I believe the Slow line between Sharnbrook & Wellingborough is closed to allow the 4th track to be installed within Sharnbrook Tunnel.
Yes, meant to mention that yesterday. The slow line is definitely closed at the moment. Have seen workmen pushing some sort of vehicle along the tracks towards the Northern entrance to the Sharnbrook tunnel. Also, not heard any freight trains on the slow line this week either.
 

HSTEd

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Electrification of the Heart of Wales line (to take an extreme example) would be a negative because the environmental cost of the energy and resources to make and install all that equipment and maintain/renew it over time would heavily outweigh the elimination of emissions from four or five diesel engines.

That is doubtful.
Carbon DIoxide's atmospheric lifetime is measured in centuries, which means all that matters is the total amount released, there are no discount rates as you might see in finance.

The heart of wales line is about 100 track miles of electrification, since it is predominantly single track.

According to the RSSB it is estimated that it produces 313 tonnes of embodied carbon dioxide for a mile of standard railway (Which appears to be double track)
That implies something like 150 tonnes of embodied carbon all up for 1 mile. And I think that is an exageration because it includes AT systems which are obvious overkill.


So we are looking at something like 15,000 tonnes for the HEart of Wales line.
15,000 tonnes of carbon is about 4800 tonnes of diesel.

Over the ~80 year life of most of the carbon (which will be structures!) you would be looking at about 60 tonnes of diesel for fuel burn per year to breakeven.
300 average operating days a year implies about 200kg of diesel per day.

Or roughly 2kg per track mile per day.
The government estimates that a Class 153 uses about 0.45kg per km. Which is 0.72kg per mile.

So assuming zero emissions electricity, which we will have to achieve anyway, that's three Sprinter vehicles per day travelling over the line to break even on carbon.

Even the HEart of Wales line manages at least 8. (4 153s in each direction).

A lot of this is just panicking Thatcherite politicians who are desperate to avoid capital expenditure because they still live in their happy place of the 80s and 90s where state spending was an anathema.
 

GRALISTAIR

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That is doubtful.
Carbon DIoxide's atmospheric lifetime is measured in centuries, which means all that matters is the total amount released, there are no discount rates as you might see in finance.

A lot of this is just panicking Thatcherite politicians who are desperate to avoid capital expenditure because they still live in their happy place of the 80s and 90s where state spending was an anathema.

Despite being Thatcherite I do agree with you. I submitted (and it was published) a paper on the Trains fit for the future Transport Committee Parliament website. I made this point perhaps a little too sarcastically/cynically - that many politicians/DfT want to put all the onus on OpEx - hence the enthusiasm for Hydrogen Trains and not CapEx hence the unwillingness to electrify. The advantage with CapEx in my opinion it is not just about now -it benefits future generations.

If you are interested http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...trains-fit-for-the-future/written/102328.html
 

edwin_m

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It's an interesting calculation, but there would be plenty of projects that give a better return in carbon terms than the Heart of Wales Line - electrifying just about any other non-electrified line for a start. And even more outside the railway. It's also likely that not long into the 80-year period something like a hydrogen train would become the best way of reducing CO2 on such a fringe rural route, since it would eliminate the emissions without any infrastructure work other than perhaps a filling station somewhere.
 

HSTEd

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It's an interesting calculation, but there would be plenty of projects that give a better return in carbon terms than the Heart of Wales Line - electrifying just about any other non-electrified line for a start.
Yes, but the result is still a net positive.
It just demonstrates that the carbon intensity of fixed infrastructure like this is suprisingly low, which is why I have such short shrift for people who complain about the amount of concrete and steel needed for zero carbon infrastructure.

And even more outside the railway. It's also likely that not long into the 80-year period something like a hydrogen train would become the best way of reducing CO2 on such a fringe rural route, since it would eliminate the emissions without any infrastructure work other than perhaps a filling station somewhere.
And the electrolysis infrastructure, and the hydrogen storage infrastructure, and the electricity distribution infrastructure that supports the electrolysers, and the extra power generation capability to account for the low end to end efficiency of the hydrogen production process, and replacing some of that since there is no way the bulk of it will last 80 years (the electrolysis cells for certain).

There is a massive structural aversion to capital expenditure in the UK, which can be demonstrated by the Treasury demanding unrealistic rates of return for capital investment which are drastically in excess of what the real rates in the market are for government debt.
Capital Expenditure is an anathema because the people in charge are dreaming of a return to the interest rates of the 70s and 80s, which will never come again.

Hence they put their hopes in magical hydrogen trains that might be available in 20 years to save them.

EDIT:

ANd all this is before we consider the possibility of adopting guyed wooden electrification masts, which would have negligible carbon impacts as the concrete mast bases and steel are eliminated.

EDIT #2:

The current traffic density is 4 and 2/3rds trains in each direction on Monday-Friday, 4 trains on Saturday and 2 on Sunday.

THis means ~29 trains in each direction per week. Or roughly 60 carriages per week over the track.

That means something like 3000 carriages per annum, rather than the 900 assumed in the estimate.

Which suggests that carbon payback time is only 24 years. Assuming no steps are taken to reduce the carbon footprint of electrification

And that assumes single car trains, apparently from 2022 it will be two-car 170s.

Which implies a time of something like 12-15 years depending on their fuel consumption.

Which will be long before hydrogen trains are available.
 
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Mordac

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Despite being Thatcherite I do agree with you. I submitted (and it was published) a paper on the Trains fit for the future Transport Committee Parliament website. I made this point perhaps a little too sarcastically/cynically - that many politicians/DfT want to put all the onus on OpEx - hence the enthusiasm for Hydrogen Trains and not CapEx hence the unwillingness to electrify. The advantage with CapEx in my opinion it is not just about now -it benefits future generations.

If you are interested http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...trains-fit-for-the-future/written/102328.html
Despite also being Thatcherite, I also agree. The problem is that too many politicians on our side of the aisle look at capital spending in the same way they look at current spending, or worse, actually view it more adversely.

Of course, the more money is spent on infrastructure, the less is available to be spent on middle class welfare schemes which both the left and the right in this country love so much.
 

GRALISTAIR

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It's an interesting calculation, but there would be plenty of projects that give a better return in carbon terms than the Heart of Wales Line - electrifying just about any other non-electrified line for a start.
Oh totally agree - and to get the thread back on topic - MML electrification, I don't care what people say MML electrification must surely to god be much much higher up the priority chain. Linking Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester etc to London and the south. I would also argue that the "fill in connectors" of Sheffield - York, Leeds and Doncaster would be totally logical add-ons and be higher priority than Heart of Wales.
 

Mikey C

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Oh totally agree - and to get the thread back on topic - MML electrification, I don't care what people say MML electrification must surely to god be much much higher up the priority chain. Linking Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester etc to London and the south. I would also argue that the "fill in connectors" of Sheffield - York, Leeds and Doncaster would be totally logical add-ons and be higher priority than Heart of Wales.

I'd be amazed if full MML electrification doesn't come back on the agenda again soon, whether from the Conservatives wanting to "support the North" and all those Brexit leaning seats, or an opposition party. It's the perfect carrot to offer at the next election.
 

duffield

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I'd be amazed if full MML electrification doesn't come back on the agenda again soon, whether from the Conservatives wanting to "support the North" and all those Brexit leaning seats, or an opposition party. It's the perfect carrot to offer at the next election.
...and then defer/cancel again after.:{
 

The Ham

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...and then defer/cancel again after.:{

But with the electrification of yet another part of the line for HS2 services the gaps left to do keep getting smaller, as such it's an "easy" thing to promise which sounds more impressive than it actually is.

"We are going to electrify the MML during the term of the next parliament"

By which they mean "HS2 will do a chunk and then there's a few fairly small sections to infill and we've given ourselves into CP7 so that we can blame the industry if it doesn't work out or takes longer than we've said".
 

Roast Veg

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"Infill" is always the hardest projects to get off the ground, there are many unelectrified chords and short stretches that have been dropped from scopes in other projects, including GOBLIN and GWML. If the MML becomes just another infill with perfectly functional services on it, we'll be looking at the same conundrum when it comes to replacing the AT300s.
 

edwin_m

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But with the electrification of yet another part of the line for HS2 services the gaps left to do keep getting smaller, as such it's an "easy" thing to promise which sounds more impressive than it actually is.

"We are going to electrify the MML during the term of the next parliament"

By which they mean "HS2 will do a chunk and then there's a few fairly small sections to infill and we've given ourselves into CP7 so that we can blame the industry if it doesn't work out or takes longer than we've said".
HS2 doesn't need the Clay Cross (ish) to Sheffield electrification until Phase 2 in 2032 or probably later. So unless they bring that forward it's at least two Parliaments beyond the next election.
 

The Ham

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"Infill" is always the hardest projects to get off the ground, there are many unelectrified chords and short stretches that have been dropped from scopes in other projects, including GOBLIN and GWML. If the MML becomes just another infill with perfectly functional services on it, we'll be looking at the same conundrum when it comes to replacing the AT300s.

However that would be at least 6 control periods away, so there should have been plenty of scope to fill in the missing sections.
 

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