Transport Minister rants at Greater Anglia due to missed connection

GoneSouth · 7 Aug 2019

Justapunter said:
I see the politics is alive and well. Because he’s not your preferred sort of politician. Or funded by those you support.

If he’s had a ‘mare, he’s had a moan. Same as most of us do. Social media lets you do it. The narrow connections are frustrating. Many operators do it. Some do it deliberately to prevent people train hopping (SWT/SWR do it with surbiton trains, holding trains back/not unlocking doors/allowing the stoppers to leave/retiming trains just as the faster trains out of WAT arrive). I do get it. But it remains frustrating.

It’s actually worse when you see bus operators allowed to run services that deliberately miss train connections - they are after the subsidy, not the passengers.... and that happens a lot.

You’re right, but who is supposed to fix this? So many people saying government has no business running railways (yes, including Mr Williams) but if we leave running things to the numerous operator things like this happen, and like you say, more so with buses... all very self serving on the part of the operator really.

Better integration and planning needs more attention, not throwing money at people when it all goes wrong! But that presumably would require more input from government, not less.

Anyway, regarding Mr Freeman, his department made the rules that created the situation, no point him moaning about it now! Do something positive instead of using ****ter to whine all the time. You’re in government, luckily enough in the DfT, go fix it

RailUK Forums

bb21 · 7 Aug 2019

I must admit that raised a smile on my face this morning.

Politicians running the railway is the single biggest reason the industry is in this shambolic state right now. It just looks like he got a taste of his (their) own medicine. His voting records also make for very, let's just say interesting, reading. (And before anyone mentions it, yes, living in the public eye and enjoying all the perks going with it means your morals are more closely scrutinised.)

On the face of it, the guard did everything right. He did the right thing for the benefit of the customers already onboard, who may have other connections to catch. (Comments about smirking are best ignored as they mostly cannot be proven and are subjective.)

Antman · 7 Aug 2019

DarloRich said:
In the Brexit obsessed, assumed privilege, political world we live this is exactly what I expect, especially from Tories who see working people as inferiors to be bullied and abused.

Tories bad. Labour and unions good. Mmmkay. This isn’t the place for obviously biased party politics. Both parties (and most of the fringe ones) are only interested in power. Not the working people. So please don’t denigrate one lot without also pointing out just how awful the others are as well.

175001 · 7 Aug 2019

Hahaha

DarloRich · 7 Aug 2019

Justapunter said:
Tories bad. Labour and unions good. Mmmkay. This isn’t the place for obviously biased party politics. Both parties (and most of the fringe ones) are only interested in power. Not the working people. So please don’t denigrate one lot without also pointing out just how awful the others are as well.

Whatever. The Tories are well known for their love of the small people. I will never, ever, have a good word to say for them. Also my views on the clown Corbyn are well known.,

Djgr · 7 Aug 2019

Fundamentally it's the result of privatisation and fragmentation. Not sure that this is really open to debate.

Dr Hoo · 7 Aug 2019

Djgr said:
Fundamentally it's the result of privatisation and fragmentation. Not sure that this is really open to debate.

This really isn’t the case. When I was a BR Traffic Manager, Station Manager or Area Operations Manager I ‘broke’ plenty of advertised connections in the overall interests of recovering performance or avoiding contagion of delay.
Quite apart from my own appreciation of the local situation there was always Control or the Divisional (or Regional) Operations management metaphorically looking over my shoulder. Things like managing single line working through Southampton Tunnel for more than a year we’re most instructive.
(And yes; I often faced it up on the platform and defended my staff for making the right decisions.)

Panupreset · 7 Aug 2019

Transport minister left fuming as train departs on time

GoneSouth · 7 Aug 2019

Panupreset said:
Transport minister left fuming as train departs on time

That sums it up nicely :lol:

What next, health minister livid that there were spare hospital beds and no cancelled operations!!!

Tetchytyke · 7 Aug 2019

Justapunter said:
I see the politics is alive and well. Because he’s not your preferred sort of politician. Or funded by those you support.

His party of crooks and charlatans created this mess, and his party of crooks and charlatans are in power and can fix it.

Instead he moans.

Says everything about the Brexitist Tories. Always someone else's fault.

Tetchytyke · 7 Aug 2019

GoneSouth said:
So many people saying government has no business running railways (yes, including Mr Williams) but if we leave running things to the numerous operator things like this happen

The likes of Williams think government has every business payimg for the railways, but that hirsute tax dodgers and gay-bashers should be left to run it for their convenience not ours.

This is the spirit of private enterprise this shower of charlatans want to embrace, so they shouldn't moan on Twitter. It's what they want.

farleigh · 7 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
His party of crooks and charlatans created this mess, and his party of crooks and charlatans are in power and can fix it.

Instead he moans.

Says everything about the Brexitist Tories. Always someone else's fault.

I agree - especially after Blair and Brown did so much to reverse privatisation.

Tetchytyke · 7 Aug 2019

farleigh said:
I agree - especially after Blair and Brown did so much to reverse privatisation.

They privatised Railtrack to stop private industry killing any more passengers.

sprunt · 7 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They privatised Railtrack to stop private industry killing any more passengers.

*psst* Nationalised, not privatised. And anyway, didn't they only nationalise it because it was about to go bankrupt?

Typhoon said:
Mr Freeman, using a quick Google search (not beyond the DfT, I'm sure) I found that in the last 100 days, that train was (over 5 mins) late 10% of the time (including 4 days in the last 10). So if it was essential that you make the connection, don't you think it was worth catching an earlier train like thousands do on a daily basis.

He probably followed an itinerary suggested to him by a route planner. Does the railway's rush to avoid blame for anything now extend to saying that passengers should research the punctuality history of services before deciding to travel on them?

Clip · 7 Aug 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They privatised Railtrack to stop private industry killing any more passengers.

Although it was quite a few years before Network Rail brought maintenance in house and private contractors still work on the railway so that cant be why they did it - it was to stop them from going broke IIRC

Taunton · 7 Aug 2019

I actually find the various comments above more than a little disappointing, coming from (I presume) a significant proportion of actual rail staff. Here we have a passenger, along with all their fellow member-of-the-public passengers, grossly inconvenienced by an (according to NRE) advertised connection not being held, and the principal attitude those in the industry can muster (including a couple whose seniority in the business and/or this website should be, or once should have been, better) is a "yah boo sucks to you" series of responses.

It doesn't matter which political party the minister happens to be from, they are ultimately responsible for the industry and the enormous amount of public funds it sucks up, and if this is the approach of those employed by the industry then no wonder if their plans for advancement are not taken seriously.

Nobody seems to have analysed why the initial train was late (apparently regularly). But the day-to-day operation of the timetable is not in the hands of politicians at all, it is in the hands of the self-same rail staff. And yet this is the best they can do.

If this comes over like the school headmaster doing one of those all-encompassing reprimands in morning assembly, then the comments above are pretty much like the responses from the primary school classes when the headmaster slipped on the snow and fell over.

Edders23 · 7 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
I actually find the various comments above more than a little disappointing, coming from (I presume) a significant proportion of actual rail staff. Here we have a passenger, along with all their fellow member-of-the-public passengers, grossly inconvenienced by an (according to NRE) advertised connection not being held, and the principal attitude those in the industry can muster (including a couple whose seniority in the business and/or this website should be, or once should have been, better) is a "yah boo sucks to you" series of responses.

It doesn't matter which political party the minister happens to be from, they are ultimately responsible for the industry and the enormous amount of public funds it sucks up, and if this is the approach of those employed by the industry then no wonder if their plans for advancement are not taken seriously.

Nobody seems to have analysed why the initial train was late (apparently regularly). But the day-to-day operation of the timetable is not in the hands of politicians at all, it is in the hands of the self-same rail staff. And yet this is the best they can do.

If this comes over like the school headmaster doing one of those all-encompassing reprimands in morning assembly, then the comments above are pretty much like the responses from the primary school classes when the headmaster slipped on the snow and fell over.

Admins can't we have a thumbs up smiley

Tetchytyke · 7 Aug 2019

sprunt said:
Does the railway's rush to avoid blame for anything now extend to saying that passengers should research the punctuality history of services before deciding to travel on them?

Yes, yes it does.

And if you're using GTR that means you should leave three days ago. Just in case.

Edders23 · 7 Aug 2019

It's all very well scoffing and laughing but this is hardly going to win the politicians over onto the railways side. Back in the day it was considered good practise to try and make connections work where possible especially where the length of delay would be fairly minor

GoneSouth · 7 Aug 2019

Taunton said:
I actually find the various comments above more than a little disappointing, coming from (I presume) a significant proportion of actual rail staff. Here we have a passenger, along with all their fellow member-of-the-public passengers, grossly inconvenienced by an (according to NRE) advertised connection not being held, and the principal attitude those in the industry can muster (including a couple whose seniority in the business and/or this website can, or once should have been, better) is a "yah boo sucks to you" series of responses.

It doesn't matter which political party the minister happens to be from, they are ultimately responsible for the industry, and if this is the approach of those employed by the industry then no wonder if their plans for advancement are not taken seriously.

Nobody seems to have analysed why the initial train was late (apparently regularly). But the day-to-day operation of the timetable is not in the hands of politicians at all, it is in the hands of the self-same rail staff. And this is the best they can do.

If this comes over like the school headmaster doing one of those all-encompassing reprimands in morning assembly, then the comments above are pretty much like the responses from the primary school classes when the headmaster slipped on the snow and fell over.

I’m not an employee of any rail company and an constantly frustrated by similar incidents. I think what people are really saying here is that the DfT are too far removed from the daily problems users of the railways experience. They don’t live under threat of losing their job if their daily commute is cancelled. It’s just interesting to see how someone with privilege reacts when it happens to them once.

You are correct, the day to day operation of the timetable is under the control of the rail workers themselves, and on this occasion they seem to have acted correctly under the terms of their franchise so congrats on doing your jobs correctly everyone.

It’s widely known and a frustration to all that advertised connections will not be held if the incoming service is delayed.

nr758123 · 7 Aug 2019

I can understand why Mr Freeman might be annoyed. I would be annoyed in that situation. It shouldn't make a difference that he's a minister in the DfT.

I can understand, and up to a point accept, the argument that where frequencies have generally improved, the impact of a missed connection is diminished. However, where the service being connected into hasn't benefited from an increased frequency that argument (from the point of view of the impact on the passenger) falls down.

dk1 · 7 Aug 2019

Typhoon said:
Mr Freeman, using a quick Google search (not beyond the DfT, I'm sure) I found that in the last 100 days, that train was (over 5 mins) late 10% of the time (including 4 days in the last 10). So if it was essential that you make the connection, don't you think it was worth catching an earlier train like thousands do on a daily basis.
This is the man who, on resigning from the No. 10 Policy Unit wrote (The Independent 20/11/17 - my emphasis).

I've got some sympathy for the guard who is going to get all the blame here, when, if he had held the train, there would doubtless be some knock on effect further down the track.

I don't suppose there is a video clip of the MP sprinting to the train?

There will be nothing whatsoever for the guard to worry about. She was dispatched, the doors closed & two on the buzzer given to the driver. Nothing except sn emergency would permit her to abort this procedure.

yorkie · 7 Aug 2019

GoneSouth said:
Sigh, another jumped up individual who thinks his time is more valuable than the rest of us...

is there actually any evidence that he felt more entitled than anyone else to make the connection?

185 said:
Looking at that train left just 15 secs early which is very much allowed and very much encouraged by his performance driven DfT.

It it should not be allowed. If the train needs to depart 15 seconds earlier, the public time should be earlier. This is already the case in other areas (e.g. the 1117 departure from Birmingham New Street which I caught recently to Plymouth).

Hopefully the rules will change so that trains can no longer depart early.

Dr Hoo · 7 Aug 2019

The railway really has changed utterly from BR’s day. Looking at a timetable for 1994 (at the pinnacle of Network SouthEast and Regional Railways’ achievements) if you rocked up at King’s Cross at 0800 to get to Attleborough you would have had to travel via Peterborough on InterCity (for a ‘reverse’ connection via March) to get there at 1009. Quite ‘high risk’ even then. The next arrival at Attleborough was at 1350!

Djgr · 7 Aug 2019

Dr Hoo said:
This really isn’t the case. When I was a BR Traffic Manager, Station Manager or Area Operations Manager I ‘broke’ plenty of advertised connections in the overall interests of recovering performance or avoiding contagion of delay.
Quite apart from my own appreciation of the local situation there was always Control or the Divisional (or Regional) Operations management metaphorically looking over my shoulder. Things like managing single line working through Southampton Tunnel for more than a year we’re most instructive.
(And yes; I often faced it up on the platform and defended my staff for making the right decisions.)

But at least you were making an informed choice, weighing up network costs and benefits.
Nowadays with separate silo TOCs, each operating for its own narrow self interest, this calculated choice is no longer performed.

Howardh · 7 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
is there actually any evidence that he felt more entitled than anyone else to make the connection?

It it should not be allowed. If the train needs to depart 15 seconds earlier, the public time should be earlier. This is already the case in other areas (e.g. the 1117 departure from Birmingham New Street which I caught recently to Plymouth).

Hopefully the rules will change so that trains can no longer depart early.

I might be completely wrong, but isn't there a departure time and doors-closed time; something like you have to be on the train within 30 seconds of departure allowing that time for the doors to be closed, driver buzzed and guard safely in cabin so it can move away on time/ So 15 seconds will be well within that compass??

GoneSouth · 7 Aug 2019

yorkie said:
is there actually any evidence that he felt more entitled than anyone else to make the connection?

It it should not be allowed. If the train needs to depart 15 seconds earlier, the public time should be earlier. This is already the case in other areas (e.g. the 1117 departure from Birmingham New Street which I caught recently to Plymouth).

Hopefully the rules will change so that trains can no longer depart early.

Howardh said:
I might be completely wrong, but isn't there a departure time and doors-closed time; something like you have to be on the train within 30 seconds of departure allowing that time for the doors to be closed, driver buzzed and guard safely in cabin so it can move away on time/ So 15 seconds will be well within that compass??

Yes, I’ve heard announcement at stations say train doors will be closed up to 40 seconds before departure, which again suggest no wrong doing here.

Obviously in the good old days he could have jogged along the platform and opened the slam door, jumped onboard and then slammed the door shut again!!!

Howardh · 7 Aug 2019

GoneSouth said:
Yes, I’ve heard announcement at stations say train doors will be closed up to 40 seconds before departure, which again suggest no wrong doing here.

Obviously in the good old days he could have jogged along the platform and opened the slam door, jumped onboard and then slammed the door shut again!!!

Thanks, so if it's 30 or 40 seconds, if departure is 1113, you have to be on the train by 1112 and a half!
I note Real Time Trains operates on 1/2 minutes so it's clearly significant.

LNW-GW Joint · 7 Aug 2019

Djgr said:
But at least you were making an informed choice, weighing up network costs and benefits.
Nowadays with separate silo TOCs, each operating for its own narrow self interest, this calculated choice is no longer performed.

A nationalised railway doesn't mean that the multiple TOCs will disappear, even if they are publicly owned.
Even BR had it's silo sectors which pretended they were separate railways.
It's simply a DfT decision to operate with 15 TOCs rather than 5 or whatever.
Devolution will/has split it all up anyway - it can never be a single railway again, whatever the ownership.

yorkie · 7 Aug 2019

I wasn't going to reply to this but reading posts that appear to be anti passenger make me feel compelled to oppose such views.

GoneSouth said:
Yes, I’ve heard announcement at stations say train doors will be closed up to 40 seconds before departure, which again suggest no wrong doing here.

Hopefully this will see the rules changed then; there are numerous cases of the working and public timetables being different, so absolutely no reason why it can't be done.

If a train needs to depart earlier than the advertised departure time, in order to avoid being late (or whatever) just adjust the public time accordingly.

If someone has been delayed by the rail industry and is seen dashing towards a train that is a valid connection, it does not seem unreasonable that it would wait a few more seconds, rather than depart early.

But the most important thing is not to avoid delays to passengers, but to get trains away early, often for the train to wait at a junction or for a platform. I've known Northern trains at Leeds be despatched in a hurry only for the train to come to a halt in a middle road for a procession of TPE trains to go in front, ensuring that the TPE passengers missed the connection while their train goes nowhere. But someone gets a tick on the box because it departed from the platform face 30 seconds early.

The other day LNER put out the York to London stopper on time, despite passengers on the fast train from Inverness wanting to make the connection, and the fast train arriving literally 5 minutes later on the adjacent platform. Staff admitted a lot of people wanted the connection, some of whom would be over an hour late as a result. The fast train overtook the stopper at Doncaster.

Many people are put off taking the train if they cannot get a direct service. I think some people are glad to hear that as they see such customers as an inconvenience to the running of the railway.

Transport Minister rants at Greater Anglia due to missed connection

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