RMT dispute on Merseyrail

M28361M · 31 Jul 2019

OL-3944 said:
From what I’m led to believe from a friend who’s a guard. Not withstanding the finer details regarding dispatch a major issue is the insistence of the company having the Guards doing penalty fares.

As you know penalty fares are currently done by Revenue/Byelaw officers in groups of 3-4 all wearing body cameras etc. The guards would be on there own and not wearing body cameras.

In agreement with the RMT on this. Given the clientele (at least, the subset of that clientele who refuse to buy a ticket) having a solitary guard trying to issue PFs would be a nightmare.

The RMT have requested repeatedly for guards to sell tickets instead which the company have refused.

There was a period a while back where guards did sell tickets on board - only for local journeys, and using handwritten tickets on carbon paper (I forget the proper name for these). Not sure why they stopped - this practice seemed to end during the last set of guard strikes back in 2005.

I don't think selling tickets on board is appropriate for a metro-style operation like Merseyrail, where stations are closely spaced and are all staffed or have TVMs. It also creates an inconsistency which could confuse and annoy passengers - if you jump on a train without a ticket, you will either get sold one on board, or be charged a PF, depending on whether the guard or RPI gets to you first.

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hwl · 31 Jul 2019

The reality is that Merseytravel funding plan for the new trains involved reallocating the guard salary + other employment costs pot.
Effectively new funding needs to be found to pay for the guards. The hourly extra revenue from ticket selling isn't really going to cover the guard cost but penalty fares would.

M28361M · 31 Jul 2019

Comment from Andy Heath, Merseyrail's managing director:

“I have personally been at every one of the 18 ACAS meetings and my whole team has given their full commitment when reaching the March and July 2019 agreements. The RMT demanded a second safety critical person on our new fleet of trains and as a result of the ACAS discussions they secured this, subject to funding. However, towards the end of the discussions, the RMT was just making increasingly unreasonable and unrealistic demands and going backwards on key elements of the deal that they had previously agreed to. This was always a dispute about the RMT wishing to retain a guaranteed second safety-critical person on all new Merseyrail trains. We delivered this and this is still not good enough for the RMT.

“The RMT - twice in the space of a couple of months - made new ultimatums which are inconsistent with their original demands. I am now struggling to comprehend what this dispute is really all about. I have never seen the likes of this in over 30 years of working in the rail industry. This announcement will just create more unnecessary and avoidable inconvenience for our passengers, the public and local businesses, especially when, in our final proposal, we provided the RMT with what they were asking for.”

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/merseyrail-responds-to-rmt-strike-announcement.aspx

PR1Berske · 31 Jul 2019

M28361M said:
Comment from Andy Heath, Merseyrail's managing director:

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/merseyrail-responds-to-rmt-strike-announcement.aspx

This is what I have always feared about the RMT, getting what they want and then pushing and pushing and pushing over what they agreed, doing to ordinary passengers what they advise TOCs of doing; being unreasonable, demanding the impossible, not having ordinary people's interests at heart.

I've never been anti-Union. The RMT show that you can ruin a good thing by always wanting to disrupt rather than cooperate.

74A · 31 Jul 2019

I think it is blinding obvious what the RMT want. They want a grade of staff that will stop the railway when they go on strike. Its been like that since these disputes started. And its not going to change.

nedchester · 31 Jul 2019

PR1Berske said:
This is what I have always feared about the RMT, getting what they want and then pushing and pushing and pushing over what they agreed, doing to ordinary passengers what they advise TOCs of doing; being unreasonable, demanding the impossible, not having ordinary people's interests at heart.

I've never been anti-Union. The RMT show that you can ruin a good thing by always wanting to disrupt rather than cooperate.

It’s all about the RMT having a power base.

I’ve been a union rep in the past in a non- railway industry but it seems to me that the RMT seem out for a fight at every opportunity.

Carlisle · 31 Jul 2019

nedchester said:
it seems to me that the RMT seem out for a fight at every opportunity.

Yes, however industrial relations between Network Rail & the RMT seem a lot more professional, balanced & level headed towards change than with TOCs , we’ve not as far as Im aware experienced months or years of pre emptive industrial action against closure, restructuring or relocation proposals for signal boxes, control rooms , p way depots etc, despite safety being equally important in many instances.

Camden · 1 Aug 2019

Liverpool's people get their usual reward for supporting the unions. In this case, more strikes and a further degraded service which will set it back even further.

People don't realise what was given up already when the politicians kow-towed to the unions and embarrassed the place by knocking back the offer of vertical integration that they'd spent the previous 10 years arguing FOR, how it could have been dramatically different today already.

The damage caused by the previous strikes is really starting to show on the network with penny pinching, daft station closures during major events to "cope", reduced evening services again, reduced Sunday services again. And as the system will cost millions more each year to run than it should fares will go up, and ticket offices are bound to close.

Now the politicians are hitting back, perhaps people will start to hear about the costs of all this. So much being given up for the sake of retaining a fistful of jobs which are anachronistic on any metro system.

Caption: A group of Londoners enjoy a DOO ride on the Victoria Line, 1969.

Camden · 1 Aug 2019

hwl said:
The reality is that Merseytravel funding plan for the new trains involved reallocating the guard salary + other employment costs pot.

And far from the government stepping in to cover it, they'll be looking to cut funding as they're expecting savings. This cost of this and the cost of the matching cuts will fall entirely on local shoulders. If network extensions and improvements were not already ruled out, they will once you button in these ongoing costs.

hwl · 1 Aug 2019

Camden said:
Liverpool's people get their usual reward for supporting the unions. In this case, more strikes and a further degraded service which will set it back even further.

People don't realise what was given up already when the politicians kow-towed to the unions and embarrassed the place by knocking back the offer of vertical integration that they'd spent the previous 10 years arguing FOR, how it could have been dramatically different today already.

The damage caused by the previous strikes is really starting to show on the network with penny pinching, daft station closures during major events to "cope", reduced evening services again, reduced Sunday services again. And as the system will cost millions more each year to run than it should fares will go up, and ticket offices are bound to close.

Now the politicians are hitting back, perhaps people will start to hear about the costs of all this. So much being given up for the sake of retaining a fistful of jobs which are anachronistic on any metro system.

Caption: A group of Londoners enjoy a DOO ride on the Victoria Line, 1969.

And that train went for scrap years 8 years ago!

bb21 · 1 Aug 2019

Please keep discussions about the Northern dispute and related posts on the Northern thread. Thank you.

hwl · 1 Aug 2019

Camden said:
And far from the government stepping in to cover it, they'll be looking to cut funding as they're expecting savings. This cost of this and the cost of the matching cuts will fall entirely on local shoulders. If network extensions and improvements were not already ruled out, they will once you button in these ongoing costs.

Part of the problem for Merseytravel is that average cost / passenger (FY 2016-17) of providing the service is £3.79 of which £1.21 comes from the passenger and £2.58 from the Government in various forms (including NR direct Grant)

Camden · 1 Aug 2019

That's right, and something more positive forces in the region have been trying to remedy for years. At one point, it looked like they were starting to be successful, revolving plans around strengthening the network and modernisation (ie new trains!) to grow passenger numbers while reducing costs. Things started to go south again when they idiotically turned up vertical integration, following a change in political fortunes in the area. If they'd have accepted, that train order would likely have been larger to cover extensions to Warrington and Skelmersdale which may well have been coming online about now.

Instead, they're looking at that £2.58 being slashed while the overall cost remains broadly static, and the income side goes either flat or possibly down along with the service provided.

OL-3944 · 1 Aug 2019

I take it no one has bothered to read my post why the RMT has rejected the deal due to the amount of uninformed comments.

The latest take on the Penalty fare issue and potential physical assaults on staff is that is a hazard of the job. That’s why the RMT have rejected this deal.

Dispatch by Guards has been agreed in the Underground sections and other stations depending on Risk Assessments.

185143 · 1 Aug 2019

Camden said:
Liverpool's people get their usual reward for supporting the unions. In this case, more strikes and a further degraded service which will set it back even further.

People don't realise what was given up already when the politicians kow-towed to the unions and embarrassed the place by knocking back the offer of vertical integration that they'd spent the previous 10 years arguing FOR, how it could have been dramatically different today already.

The damage caused by the previous strikes is really starting to show on the network with penny pinching, daft station closures during major events to "cope", reduced evening services again, reduced Sunday services again. And as the system will cost millions more each year to run than it should fares will go up, and ticket offices are bound to close.

Now the politicians are hitting back, perhaps people will start to hear about the costs of all this. So much being given up for the sake of retaining a fistful of jobs which are anachronistic on any metro system.

Caption: A group of Londoners enjoy a DOO ride on the Victoria Line, 1969.

Which services have been reduced? Unless you mean the summer sunday 4tph Southport services?

jamesst · 1 Aug 2019

Camden said:
The damage caused by the previous strikes is really starting to show on the network with penny pinching, daft station closures during major events to "cope", reduced evening services again, reduced Sunday services again. And as the system will cost millions more each year to run than it should fares will go up, and ticket offices are bound to close.

Much as I don't agree with the new strike dates let's get some balance here.
The "daft" station closures during special events are in fact quite essential and agreed with merseyrail, merseytravel, btp and all the relevant authorities.
Theres been no changes to evening services and Sunday services have in fact been increased on the Southport line after a 2 year gap!

OxtedSignaller · 1 Aug 2019

OL-3944 said:
From what I’m led to believe from a friend who’s a guard. Not withstanding the finer details regarding dispatch a major issue is the insistence of the company having the Guards doing penalty fares.

As you know penalty fares are currently done by Revenue/Byelaw officers in groups of 3-4 all wearing body cameras etc. The guards would be working on there own and not wearing body cameras.

Within the ACAS agreement the company has insisted that after a set period the new role is to be evaluated. In short if assaults are thru the roof the grade will go. If not enough penalty fares are being issued the grade will go.

The RMT have requested repeatedly for guards to sell tickets in lieu of penalty fares which the company have refused. The general feeling is that there being set up to fail.

That is contary to what i have heard. I was told the finer issues were more to do with train dispatch and there was also a secondary issue where cleaners would be replaced by Guards who would carry out turnaround cleaning at certain terminus stations along with a pay freeze. The whole thing is being done on a shoe string. An agreement was reached with the local representatives hoveer apparently not endorsed by the RMT NEC. At this monent in time the trains are only configured for Driver Dispatch. If the Guard was going to dispatch surely the penalty fares aspect would be removed as it is not feesible. The whole thing isn't. That is why Southern OBS do not issue penalty fares when diagrammed to a specific train because it affects their customer service focus, is time consuming and they cannot leave the train to finish it. If anything its worse because word will go round if they try and issue you a penalty fare jump off and there is nothing you can do.

What will happen is that the Guards will no doubt use their discretion and decide to sell a ticket instead and there is nothing anyone can particurlarly do about it as then they would be on targets which is against tne guidelines of a penalty fare scheme and will just lead to criticism.

Fawkes Cat · 1 Aug 2019

OxtedSignaller said:
An agreement was reached with the local representatives hoveer apparently not endorsed by the RMT NEC.

This does not make me comfortable. If the local reps are out of line with their members, then why have new reps not been elected? But if the reps are in line with the members, then why are the NEC overriding them? It's not as if Merseyrail is a national company, and that one group agreeing a deal would make life difficult for other members elsewhere in the same company.

Carlisle · 1 Aug 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
But if the reps are in line with the members, then why are the NEC overriding them? .

Possibly like Boris’s arch brexiteer cabinet, the NEC alongside some members, sense an opportunity for a much purer victory than they envisaged around 18 months ago

RMTGuard · 1 Aug 2019

OL-3944 said:
I take it no one has bothered to read my post why the RMT has rejected the deal due to the amount of uninformed comments.

The latest take on the Penalty fare issue and potential physical assaults on staff is that is a hazard of the job. That’s why the RMT have rejected this deal.

Dispatch by Guards has been agreed in the Underground sections and other stations depending on Risk Assessments.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/what-new-merseyrail-strikes-mean-16677146

"Answering that question today, RMT's regional organiser John Tilley said the dispatch issue had always been on the table.

He said: "It has always been a pinch point for our members.

"We put the issue to one side so we could deal with the other issues - such as keeping a second member of staff on the train.

"But our nine local representatives have said unanimously that they are opposed to Merseyrail's current offer in this area."

However this is not true as per the RMT OWN press release last August which stated: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-rmt-joint-statement/

"The design of the new trains proposes that the door control and dispatch of the trains will transfer to the driver. No one currently employed as a guard will lose their employment as a result of the introduction of the new fleet in 2021."

RMTGuard · 1 Aug 2019

Indeed here is the RMT letter to all Guards:

Our Ref BR2/0146

31st July 2019

TO ALL GUARDS, GUARDS STANDARD MANAGERS AND TRAIN DRIVERS AT MERSEYRAIL

Dear Colleagues

LATEST PROPOSALS REJECTED

FURTHER STRIKE ACTION CALLED!

ROLE OF THE GUARD AND INTRODUCTION OF DOO - MERSEYRAIL

Further to my letter of 18th July 2019, all affected members were provided with a copy of the latest proposals from the company and your reps and the National Executive Committee met on 24th July 2019 to discuss members' views. This meeting was attended by your company council reps, the lead officer, members of the NEC and national officers including myself where detailed feedback was given during a full, frank and honest debate. In light of the unanimous view of the meeting, the NEC has now considered this matter and rejected the company's proposals.

Our discussions with Merseyrail on the role of the guard have been ongoing at ACAS for over 15 months. During this period the NEC met with your negotiating team on numerous occasions to monitor the latest developments giving instructions on how to proceed. Your negotiating team have attempted to carry out the instructions of the NEC, reporting back in detail at all key points in what has been a drawn out three phase negotiating process at ACAS.

At the latest meeting held on 24th July the clear views expressed by drivers and guards alike was that the proposed method of train despatch was still unsatisfactory and is a less safe option. When you consider the despatch methods that have been successfully fought for and agreed in our disputes on other TOCs, we could have been in a completely different situation if management hadn't approved the design of the new trains before even agreeing the despatch method. Effectively Merseyrail have wrapped a straightjacket around their position preventing them from moving enough to satisfy members, who it is extremely clear still believe that the Guard should be responsible for the safe dispatch of the train as they are now.

The NEC has placed on record its gratitude for the hard work and efforts of the negotiating team throughout this process in difficult and often hostile talks. Unfortunately the offer still fails to meet the aspirations of members and consequently have no alternative but to call members to take industrial action as outlined below.

All Guard, Guards Standards Managers and Train Drivers are instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between: -

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Saturday 24th August 2019
00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Tuesday 3rd September 2019
00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Thursday 5th September 2019
00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Monday 30th September 2019
00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Wednesday 2nd October 2019
00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Friday 4th October 2019

Once again I want to thank you for your continued support for your union throughout this dispute and urge you to shoulder to shoulder with your colleagues on the days of action. Management must be left in no doubt of your strength of feeling and solidarity on this issue. The Role of the Guard must be defended!

SUPPORT THE ACTION

UNITY IS STRENGTH

Goldfish62 · 1 Aug 2019

RMTGuard said:
Indeed here is the RMT letter to all Guards:

Our Ref BR2/0146

31st July 2019

TO ALL GUARDS, GUARDS STANDARD MANAGERS AND TRAIN DRIVERS AT MERSEYRAIL

Dear Colleagues

LATEST PROPOSALS REJECTED

FURTHER STRIKE ACTION CALLED!

ROLE OF THE GUARD AND INTRODUCTION OF DOO - MERSEYRAIL

Further to my letter of 18th July 2019, all affected members were provided with a copy of the latest proposals from the company and your reps and the National Executive Committee met on 24th July 2019 to discuss members' views. This meeting was attended by your company council reps, the lead officer, members of the NEC and national officers including myself where detailed feedback was given during a full, frank and honest debate. In light of the unanimous view of the meeting, the NEC has now considered this matter and rejected the company's proposals.

Our discussions with Merseyrail on the role of the guard have been ongoing at ACAS for over 15 months. During this period the NEC met with your negotiating team on numerous occasions to monitor the latest developments giving instructions on how to proceed. Your negotiating team have attempted to carry out the instructions of the NEC, reporting back in detail at all key points in what has been a drawn out three phase negotiating process at ACAS.

At the latest meeting held on 24th July the clear views expressed by drivers and guards alike was that the proposed method of train despatch was still unsatisfactory and is a less safe option. When you consider the despatch methods that have been successfully fought for and agreed in our disputes on other TOCs, we could have been in a completely different situation if management hadn't approved the design of the new trains before even agreeing the despatch method. Effectively Merseyrail have wrapped a straightjacket around their position preventing them from moving enough to satisfy members, who it is extremely clear still believe that the Guard should be responsible for the safe dispatch of the train as they are now.

The NEC has placed on record its gratitude for the hard work and efforts of the negotiating team throughout this process in difficult and often hostile talks. Unfortunately the offer still fails to meet the aspirations of members and consequently have no alternative but to call members to take industrial action as outlined below.

All Guard, Guards Standards Managers and Train Drivers are instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between: -

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Saturday 24th August 2019

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Tuesday 3rd September 2019

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Thursday 5th September 2019

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Monday 30th September 2019

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Wednesday 2nd October 2019

00.01 hours until 23.59 hours on Friday 4th October 2019

Once again I want to thank you for your continued support for your union throughout this dispute and urge you to shoulder to shoulder with your colleagues on the days of action. Management must be left in no doubt of your strength of feeling and solidarity on this issue. The Role of the Guard must be defended!

SUPPORT THE ACTION

UNITY IS STRENGTH

Yet earlier this week trains entered service in East Anglia with full DCO as agreed by the very same union. Bizarre!!

RMTGuard · 1 Aug 2019

The bit I don't understand is what changed...... from August 2018

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-rmt-joint-statement/

"The design of the new trains proposes that the door control and dispatch of the trains will transfer to the driver. No one currently employed as a guard will lose their employment as a result of the introduction of the new fleet in 2021."

Carlisle · 1 Aug 2019

RMTGuard said:
The bit I don't understand is what changed...... from August 2018

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/merseyrail-rmt-joint-statement/

"The design of the new trains proposes that the door control and dispatch of the trains will transfer to the driver. No one currently employed as a guard will lose their employment as a result of the introduction of the new fleet in 2021."

1) Northern & SWR conceded and dropped all DOO proposals

2) The unions gambling on a sizeable amount of the public that aren’t following the dispute mistakenly believing the RMT is still striking essentially to guarantee them an on board presence

Kite159 · 1 Aug 2019

Just remember it's the same union which came out with a statement along the lines of "commuters deserve better than this basket-case franchise" when news came out when Stagecoach were in talks with a direct award for SWT, only to completely contradict themselves a few months later when news came out that the direct award had failed and it was going out to tender.

And was it Merseyrail who designed the trains or was it Merseytravel who did the designing a few years ago? Are the RMT going after the wrong target whose arms are tied, similar if they decide to campaign against Arriva Rail London for something TFL has decided should happen.

What makes Merseyrail drivers so special they can't release the doors, a process which happens elsewhere in the country.

387star · 1 Aug 2019

Carlisle said:
1) Northern & SWR conceded and dropped all DOO proposals

2) The unions gambling on a sizeable amount of the public that aren’t following the dispute mistakenly believing the RMT is still striking essentially to guarantee them an on board presence

Thought the SWR strikes had restarted too

jamesst · 1 Aug 2019

Kite159 said:
Just remember it's the same union which came out with a statement along the lines of "commuters deserve better than this basket-case franchise" when news came out when Stagecoach were in talks with a direct award for SWT, only to completely contradict themselves a few months later when news came out that the direct award had failed and it was going out to tender.

And was it Merseyrail who designed the trains or was it Merseytravel who did the designing a few years ago? Are the RMT going after the wrong target whose arms are tied, similar if they decide to campaign against Arriva Rail London for something TFL has decided should happen.

What makes Merseyrail drivers so special they can't release the doors, a process which happens elsewhere in the country.

Aslef have yet to even talk about any conditions or package for the drivers involving training or driving the new stock. Theres very very few drivers (no more than a handful) in the rmt.

AntoniC · 7 Aug 2019

I spoke to a friendly guard this morning who advised me the strike is NOT about money its about
1) The driver closing the doors so the Guards will not be guards they will resemble OBS on other TOC`s and they fear that once they are not graded as Guards Merseyrail will get rid of them and
2) As OBS they will be expected to act as RPI`s (check tickets etc) and as someone else said up thread , because of some Merseyrails clientele thats why its done mob handed by properly trained RPI`s.

trainophile · 7 Aug 2019

Can’t argue with any of that. They have my full support.

Even when they strike they still seem to manage to put a reasonable service on, so it’s not as if they are deliberately causing inconvenience to the public.

Llandudno · 7 Aug 2019

I used a Merseyrail service from Chester to Liverpool last week.
Full marks to the guard, kept dwell times to a minimum, excellent on train announcements, visible presence walking throughout the train and checking tickets.

If all guards were like this, then I’m sure that Merseyrail and other TOC’s wouldn’t be looking at removing/downgrading guards, as this chap represents fantastic value for money!

RMT dispute on Merseyrail

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