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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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quantinghome

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Despite the problems with the electrification programme, I remain hopeful that this and other recent rolling stock orders now provide a viable route for transitioning to electrified services on all main lines. A rolling programme (not the famine-feast-famine of the last two decades) to complete electrification of GWML and MML will allow the Class 80X hybrids to be replaced with simpler (and cheaper) pure-electric traction with the former then cascaded onto XC. XC at that point will have substantial parts of its network electrified and further infill can be undertaken at a steady pace.
 
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greatescape

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What is the unit number for Hitachi AT -300 in EMR?

(1) × ・・・ Class 803, Is Class 803 applicable because the EMU introduced in the FirstGroup East Coast Train is an EMU version of Class 802?
(2) ○ ・・・ Class 8X0, This set is a different version of Class 800, so maybe this one will be used?
(3) Other than that, it is unknown.
 
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Jozhua

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Despite the problems with the electrification programme, I remain hopeful that this and other recent rolling stock orders now provide a viable route for transitioning to electrified services on all main lines. A rolling programme (not the famine-feast-famine of the last two decades) to complete electrification of GWML and MML will allow the Class 80X hybrids to be replaced with simpler (and cheaper) pure-electric traction with the former then cascaded onto XC. XC at that point will have substantial parts of its network electrified and further infill can be undertaken at a steady pace.

I agree! With the bi-modes ready to take advantage of even small sections of electrification, a slower rolling programme is not only viable, but could bring immediate benefit as soon as the system is ready. The system might not even have to be tested to the same stringent levels, as if electrical power fails, the trains could just switch to diesel and be on their way. With the works at Derby station and Ambergate junction increasing line speed, the remodelled Nottingham station and Leicester looking to soon have an upgrade as well as other alignment improvements I've heard of further south, the route should be primed for electrification and more consistent high speed running throughout! Not to mention the Gauge improvements made by replacing bridges, etc...
 

59CosG95

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Despite the problems with the electrification programme, I remain hopeful that this and other recent rolling stock orders now provide a viable route for transitioning to electrified services on all main lines. A rolling programme (not the famine-feast-famine of the last two decades) to complete electrification of GWML and MML will allow the Class 80X hybrids to be replaced with simpler (and cheaper) pure-electric traction with the former then cascaded onto XC. XC at that point will have substantial parts of its network electrified and further infill can be undertaken at a steady pace.
The DfT-procured 80X units are contracted for services on the routes designated for them, but their spec can be changed - the 800/3s can easily be converted back to 801/0s, for example.
 

HSTEd

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I agree! With the bi-modes ready to take advantage of even small sections of electrification, a slower rolling programme is not only viable, but could bring immediate benefit as soon as the system is ready.
But the benefit of the programme becomes negligible.

The savings from electrification become the marginal costs of diesel and a small marginal maintenance cost of the generators that might even be negative.
Without the network effect everything that is economic, under current assumptions, to electrify already is or is planned to be.
 

Jozhua

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But the benefit of the programme becomes negligible.

The savings from electrification become the marginal costs of diesel and a small marginal maintenance cost of the generators that might even be negative.
Without the network effect everything that is economic, under current assumptions, to electrify already is or is planned to be.

To be fair though, they did plan to electrify the MML but it was cancelled due to ballooning costs. A slower programme with more reasonable deadlines could be much cheaper and would still provide benefits, especially to fully electric stock in the future. The benefits of faster accelerating trains and lower emissions still apply.
 

edwin_m

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Presumably having a single transformer per 5-car unit and putting the fourth engine in the opposite driving vehicle.
Can't see how it could be anything else. Fitting an engine into an end car is moreorless a matter of combining bits of design they already have, and the fact a 10-car only needs two transformers means a 5-car only needs one. Designing a car with two engines would be a lot of work, and probably impossible without putting something above floor level.
 

quantinghome

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But the benefit of the programme becomes negligible.

The savings from electrification become the marginal costs of diesel and a small marginal maintenance cost of the generators that might even be negative.
Without the network effect everything that is economic, under current assumptions, to electrify already is or is planned to be.

Aren't hybrid trains significantly more technically complex and expensive than straight-up electric traction? Wouldn't there be significant weight savings (and hence fuel economy) if the diesel element of a hybrid was removed?

The UK will need to phase out fossil fuel use within the next few decades regardless.
 

HSTEd

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Aren't hybrid trains significantly more technically complex and expensive than straight-up electric traction? Wouldn't there be significant weight savings (and hence fuel economy) if the diesel element of a hybrid was removed?
There would be savings but only marginal savings in terms of energy efficiency, and since we already have the hybrid equipment we can't trade it back to the manufacturer to get our original spending back.
The UK will need to phase out fossil fuel use within the next few decades regardless.
Given that aviation fuel consumption is 20-30x what rail uses in the UK, if the aviation industry gets it's zero carbon kerosene programme, it seems likely rail could just piggyback on that indefinitely.
 

quantinghome

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There would be savings but only marginal savings in terms of energy efficiency, and since we already have the hybrid equipment we can't trade it back to the manufacturer to get our original spending back.

Hence the suggestion to cascade hybrids onto partially electrified routes (e.g. XC) once their current routes are 100% electrified.
 

swt_passenger

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What is the unit number for Hitachi AT -300 in EMR?

(1) × ・・・ Class 803, Is Class 803 applicable because the EMU introduced in the FirstGroup East Coast Train is an EMU version of Class 802?
(2) ○ ・・・ Class 8X0, This set is a different version of Class 800, so maybe this one will be used?
(3) Other than that, it is unknown.
Or it’s just too soon. As I see it Class 800 is a specific train model, so this will not be a “version of” an 800, it would be more correct to call it another member of the UK spec AT300 family, which as we know includes the 395s (according to Hitachi). Any class number between 804 and 899 could be chosen, there’s no necessity for them to run in a logical order.
 

lammergeier

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Can you elaborate on that please, I’m genuinely interested in hearing what’s in the works for Leicester.

AIUI the recent linespeed increases for Southbound trains leaving Leicester (and through freight) are to be replicated on the Down or Northbound side, so the approach speed should be much improved.

I'm not sure if this is what's being referred to in the post you quoted of course, but that's what's planned.
 

greatescape

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Or it’s just too soon. As I see it Class 800 is a specific train model, so this will not be a “version of” an 800, it would be more correct to call it another member of the UK spec AT300 family, which as we know includes the 395s (according to Hitachi). Any class number between 804 and 899 could be chosen, there’s no necessity for them to run in a logical order.
Thank you for an answer to my childish question(*^^*).
Does hitachi have the right to specify the number?
Is “Class 803 ” a decision?
 

swt_passenger

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Thank you for an answer to my childish question(*^^*).
Does hitachi have the right to specify the number?
Is “Class 803 ” a decision?
I don’t think the manufacturers ever select class numbers. More likely the owning ROSCO.
I‘d still be fairly cautious about 803 until we see a “live one”. Has it appeared in any official sense yet?
 

Kneedown

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To be fair though, they did plan to electrify the MML but it was cancelled due to ballooning costs.
The GW electrification programme suffered ballooning costs. As far as i'm aware the MML programme was proceeding competently and generally on budget despite the lack of fanfare, until it was paused, then unpaused and finally cut short.
 

43096

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I don’t think the manufacturers ever select class numbers. More likely the owning ROSCO.
I‘d still be fairly cautious about 803 until we see a “live one”. Has it appeared in any official sense yet?
The ROSCO might request, but ultimately it is up to those who run the national vehicle register.
 

greatescape

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I don’t think the manufacturers ever select class numbers. More likely the owning ROSCO.
I‘d still be fairly cautious about 803 until we see a “live one”. Has it appeared in any official sense yet?
I SEE...
So this time it is Rock Rail, right?
 

The Ham

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There would be savings but only marginal savings in terms of energy efficiency, and since we already have the hybrid equipment we can't trade it back to the manufacturer to get our original spending back.

However if you had a rolling program focusing on the regional routes with the InterCity services picking up the benefits of electrification when it exists you get the best of both worlds. The regional/local fleets become EMU's and the big savings that brings whilst the InterCity services just switch back and forth depending on where the wires are. With the simple to do infill of mostly non-junction lines, often with few difficult to change urban bridges, used by the InterCity services between the urban areas potentially not needing many (if any) feeder points, meaning that cost of doing so would be lower per mile than urban schemes.

It means that to convert another 30 units to electric power is easier to do than wiring up hundreds of miles and increasing the under the wire running of the local services crossing it or running along the route for a bit. Rather 50 miles could be done, 20 of which the InterCity services use, 30 trains get converted to EMU. It may cost more per mile but the number of units, maybe even the number of coaches, per 100 miles would be higher.

As an example if you wire up around two nearby cities and the main route between them totaling 50 miles. Then loads of regional and local services an hour would benefit (say 10tph with 3 coaches each=30 coaches) whilst to convert the InterCity services through those same cities would require 100 miles of wires but it would benefit less coaches (say 2tph with 9 coaches=18). If the costs for the urban electrification was the same (say £0.5bn), the cost per mile is double (£10 million Vs £5 million) but the cost per coach changed to electric is much smaller (£17 million Vs £28 million).

It would also improve the air quality in those cities, whilst the pollution would be in the countryside where it can better cope with it (not least as there would be much less of it).

It then allows for the next city across to be wired up repeating the process and allowing it's services (and possibly more of those from the two first cities) to go over to being electric.

Yes some cities would need to be looked at in stages, such as Birmingham. However if the likes of XC have bimodal trains for a long time to come to cater for running through the likes of Cornwall, what's it matter to them if there are gaps elsewhere?
 

londonmidland

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AIUI the recent linespeed increases for Southbound trains leaving Leicester (and through freight) are to be replicated on the Down or Northbound side, so the approach speed should be much improved.

I'm not sure if this is what's being referred to in the post you quoted of course, but that's what's planned.

Thanks for the explanation. I see, the improvements involved raising the speed on the southbound line from 15mph to 25mph for freight and 40mph for passenger trains if I’m correct?

Should help a lot, especially with long freight trains, having to trundle through at 15mph.
 

InTheEastMids

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Thanks for the explanation. I see, the improvements involved raising the speed on the southbound line from 15mph to 25mph for freight and 40mph for passenger trains if I’m correct?

Should help a lot, especially with long freight trains, having to trundle through at 15mph.
May also be a reference to the proposed Syston-Wigston Capacity Scheme which was due to happen in CP6, involving 4-tracking, new platforms at Leicester and grade separated junction at Wigston
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Until the new trains actually arrive there are interim posters that have been displayed.

696E5F34-5168-4A58-B05E-0CBA495D08FC.jpeg 2F4AD3DA-DED4-4DA3-A51E-B5EF4ECE406D.jpeg

Caterer talking to the guard on 156410 today they were saying that East Midlands Railway had plans to put 153s in the middle of 156s a la Scotrail plans because the 170s will not arrive for a while. I think that’ll look disgustingly messy. Especially as 153s are plug door and 156s are pocket sliding door.

Also according to the guard, LNER carriages will be coming to replace East Midlands Trains ones.
 

londonmidland

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What is the benefit of putting a 153 sandwiched in the middle of a 156 rather than it being attached at the front/rear of the train?
 

LowLevel

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Until the new trains actually arrive there are interim posters that have been displayed.

View attachment 66815 View attachment 66816

Caterer talking to the guard on 156410 today they were saying that East Midlands Railway had plans to put 153s in the middle of 156s a la Scotrail plans because the 170s will not arrive for a while. I think that’ll look disgustingly messy. Especially as 153s are plug door and 156s are pocket sliding door.

Also according to the guard, LNER carriages will be coming to replace East Midlands Trains ones.

Do remember that guards (for I am one myself) know precious little about anything going forward in that vein. Hardly anyone does as it happens as it's all rather up in the air!
 

HSTEd

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What is the benefit of putting a 153 sandwiched in the middle of a 156 rather than it being attached at the front/rear of the train?

If you permanently couple it into the middle of the formation you avoid the use of the Class 153 cabs, one of which is renowned for being cramped (the one that was put in during the conversion).

You also avoid having to do the conversion course for driving a 153.
I understand it's not that extensive, but the cabs are still different to a 156 as they were built by different people.
 

LowLevel

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If you permanently couple it into the middle of the formation you avoid the use of the Class 153 cabs, one of which is renowned for being cramped (the one that was put in during the conversion).

You also avoid having to do the conversion course for driving a 153.
I understand it's not that extensive, but the cabs are still different to a 156 as they were built by different people.

You still have to sign it's vastly different systems and it requires significant rewiring or you lose the benefit of things like the remote supply for engine failure fitted to these 156s.
 

lammergeier

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Thanks for the explanation. I see, the improvements involved raising the speed on the southbound line from 15mph to 25mph for freight and 40mph for passenger trains if I’m correct?

Should help a lot, especially with long freight trains, having to trundle through at 15mph.

If using platform 3 Southbound it is 40mph throughout for both passenger and freight so significantly better than the previous 15mph dawdle. Also worth pointing out that the Southbound departures from platforms 1 and 4 have also seen modest linespeed increases (up to 25mph) although this does mean the XC services clear the station and associated junctions quicker. Not sure what the exact plan is for Northbound, hopefully a similar 40mph arrival for platform 2.
 
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