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West Midlands Trains tickets to Manchester Piccadilly

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Starmill

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Two tickets have been uploaded from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, an Off Peak Single and a Super Off Peak Single, for use on Transport for Wales & West Midlands Trains only.

It looks to me like they intend to roll these out, because at the moment there is no Anytime ticket, no return and no Advances.

This is a big moment I've speculated about before. Nearly all other large cities nearby (Liverpool, Sheffield, Chester, Derby, Birmingham and West Midlands, York, Leeds and West Yorkshire etc) have a competing option for a through ticket to London already, even if its fairly limited (as in the case of GC and EMT tickets to Leeds) or if it's a small saving. The journey is time-competitive using WMT and TfW, as there is a reasonable connection at Crewe taking a little over 3 hours.

If we see a £35 Super Off Peak Return from Manchester to London (which is hinted at by the £34 Super Off Peak Single - the Liverpool to London single is £34 and return is £35) I suspect this will prove a huge challenge to the Off Peak Return for VT at £89.60. Provided you're travelling at the relevant time, as many people will be, it'd be a saving of more than 60%.

Nothing is yet available to buy from the ticket machines at Manchester Piccadilly.
 

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Merseysider

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That's interesting.

They also undercut CrossCountry's offensively expensive fares between Manchester and Birmingham/Coventry, as tickets down to London are valid via the West Mids.
 

AnkleBoots

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Is trainsplit the only retailer to offer this fare?

It seems to be an example of a positive outcome of privatisation.
 

Hadders

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It's been mentioned in passing previously but a full range of walk on tickets tickets from London Euston to Manchester routed 'WMT & TfW only'. They appear to be being introduced from the September fares round although some are already available.

Super Off Peak Single £34
Off Peak Single £44
Anytime Return £70

Super Off Peak Return £35
Off Peak Return £45
Anytime Return £120

1st Off Peak Single £60
1st Off Peak Return £90

1st Anytime Single £100
1st Anytime Return £150

A change at Crewe is required.
Restrictions apply to the Super Off Peak tickets on Saturdays but not on Sundays.

There don't appear to be any evening restrictions on the Off Peak so the Anytime Return can be undercut by purchasing an Anytime Single and Off Peak Single combination, the only advantage of an Anytime Return seems to be the advantage of 5 day outward validity and one month return for break of journey purposes.

Southbound first service is 07:30 with an arrival time of 10:00
Southbound last service is 20:31 arriving 00:45 (outside the first and last trains the service is hourly with a 3h19 timing.

Saturday timings are similar but Sundays take longer.

Northbound first service is 06:28 with an arrival time of 10:11
Northbound last service is 19:46 arriving 22:50 (again the service is hourly with a timing generally of 3h27.

I can see these tickets being popular, as long as they can be shown on booking sites without too much faffing about.
 

_toommm_

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£23 with a railcard for Super Off Peak return - wow!

What are the restrictions on a Saturday as I can't see the return on BRFares yet?
 

causton

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I can see these tickets being popular, as long as they can be shown on booking sites without too much faffing about.

They can't really at the moment unfortunately, best is a MixingDesk site like old TPE or Hull Trains where you can click on the cheap fare.

All of the fares officially start 12th August.
 

Merseysider

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There's also a journey opportunity leaving Manchester Picc at 06:29 arriving London 09:36, just 3h07.

The time between trains at Crewe is 7 minutes, so whilst an unofficial connection, it's perfectly doable by most.

I'm probably being too cynical here, but I have doubts these fares will be offered impartially by Virgin staff alongside the Any Permitted fares.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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The time restriction on the Super Off Peak makes no mention of Sunday being excluded, it just indicates it applies every day, whilst the Off Peak is M - F only.
20190808_001608.jpg 20190808_001543.jpg
 

Mathew S

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An off-peak, reasonably priced ticket from NW England to London arriving before 10am, and with evening travel at a good time. These seem almost too good to be true!
 

Sprinter150

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It says mon-sat here :
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/jn

the last time I was on a Trent Valley service, there was standing between Stafford and Euston - can this route cope with a lot more passengers?

Most services have now been strengthened to 8-car as committed in the franchise (I think), as there is no realistic possibility of extra paths into Euston. I would be surprised to see standing on these, although it was commonplace on 4 car sets before - a victim of their own success under London Midland. Also in the timetable change was WCML between Stafford and Crewe, rather than via Stoke.
 

route101

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Most services have now been strengthened to 8-car as committed in the franchise (I think), as there is no realistic possibility of extra paths into Euston. I would be surprised to see standing on these, although it was commonplace on 4 car sets before - a victim of their own success under London Midland. Also in the timetable change was WCML between Stafford and Crewe, rather than via Stoke.

Was a for car 350 last month from Crewe to London , one of the 3 plus 2 seated ones too . Was busy after Stafford
 

Sprinter150

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Surprised! Must only be some services now operating as 8, but once the aventras come in for London-Birmingham, all should be 8 carriages. 350/2 (with 3 + 2) seating will be withdrawn and 350/1 kept for these, as well as 350/4s from TPE one their class 397s are introduced. The Trent Valley route has been increasingly busy in recent years, and I agree that 4 car is inadequate.
 

Mathew S

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It says mon-sat here :
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/jn

the last time I was on a Trent Valley service, there was standing between Stafford and Euston - can this route cope with a lot more passengers?
The few times I've used the services, both peak and off-peak, from Crewe to London, I've never seen overcrowding. Busy, yes, but only once have I seen people standing at then only in the morning peak, south of MK. So, yeah, I think they'll cope just fine.
 

Sprinter150

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Sprinter150

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Was a for car 350 last month from Crewe to London , one of the 3 plus 2 seated ones too . Was busy after Stafford

That's what I thought, but this post suggests otherwise. I would have suspected though that this is one of the first to be cut if there is a stock shortage (no clue how common this is, but extension of London to Birmingham onwards to Rugeley Trent Valley surely puts some more strain on the fleet?)
 

Starmill

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The whole range of tickets now seem to be on general sale. As speculated, the Super Off Peak Return is indeed £35, with the Off Peak Return at £35. A range of super-cheap Advance tickets, including some for £12, are also available, even looking for journeys in just a couple of days time. The cheapest Advance ticket that seems to be on general sale on VT from Manchester to London seems to be £24, so £12 is a huge discount even on this level. The Transport for Wales leg predictably seems to restrict availability significantly more than the West Midlands Trains one. This will probably lead to a lot of bookings of the Super Off Peak and Off Peak tickets. The £45 Off Peak Return is valid on the 1030 arrival at London Euston, which is significantly earlier in London than the £89.60 ticket permits.

If anyone is travelling today from Manchester Piccadilly or London Euston, I would be particularly interested to hear if the fares are available to buy from the ticket machines at these stations.
 

Starmill

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The time restriction on the Super Off Peak makes no mention of Sunday being excluded, it just indicates it applies every day, whilst the Off Peak is M - F only.
View attachment 66838 View attachment 66839
The current copy at National Rail Enquiries says JN restrictions apply Monday - Saturday.

Restriction Code
JN
Applicable days

Mondays-Saturdays


Outward Travel
Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly or London Euston before 10:30 and between 16:00 and 19:00

Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly or London Euston before 10:30 and between 16:00 and 19:00
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/JN

The effect of this is actually slightly different to that of LF Super Off Peak, used for Crewe to London (and many others) WMT Only, so worth checking before travel.
 

Solent&Wessex

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The current copy at National Rail Enquiries says JN restrictions apply Monday - Saturday.


https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/JN

The effect of this is actually slightly different to that of LF Super Off Peak, used for Crewe to London (and many others) WMT Only, so worth checking before travel.


Good to see that, as often happens, the information on staff systems is different to that in public facing systems. And then people wonder why staff get it wrong at times!
 

transplanted

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These fares will be very popular I'd imagine. Hopefully see some Virgin Advances come down to compete.
 

jawr256

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The restriction JM for the off-peak return doesn't seem to make any sense at the moment.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/JM said:
Restriction Code
JM
Applicable days
Mondays-Fridays

Outward travel
Valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 09:32 and between 16:00 to 19:00.
Valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 or between 08:45 and 10:00 and between 16:00 to 19:00

Return travel
Valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 09:32 and between 16:00 to 19:00.
Valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 or between 08:45 and 10:00 and between 16:00 to 19:00

I can see the intention to restrict use on peak services (though I don't see the relevance of 09:32), but as written it essentially more or less means "valid at any time" in convoluted logic.

The electronic restrictions for M-F, not shown on National Rail, make more sense though only allow a later start northbound than southbound:
brfares said:
UNPUBLISHED RESTRICTIONS
...

Not valid to depart LONDON EUSTON 0430–0845 on any TOC
Not valid to depart MANCHESTER PICCADILLY 0430–0729 on any TOC
 
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Starmill

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The restriction JM for the off-peak return doesn't seem to make any sense at the moment.



I can see the intention to restrict use on peak services (though I don't see the relevance of 09:32), but as written it essentially more or less means "valid at any time" in convoluted logic.

The electronic restrictions for M-F, not shown on National Rail, make more sense though only allow a later start northbound:
The London Northwestern Railway website is a little bit clearer on the subject:

Ticket Type
Off-Peak single or return

Off-Peak return

Route
To/from London

Travel time to London
You can only use these tickets for arrival in London after 10.00am

Travel times from London
You can leave London on trains departing from 0915 (0845 if travelling to Wolverton, Northampton and Long Buckby)
https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/tickets-fares/offpeak-tickets

So there are no restrictions on leaving London after 0915.
 

jawr256

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The restriction text on nationalrail.co.uk is wrong - it's subtly missing some "not"s at the start of each paragraph.
That helps a bit but even with the "not"s, you'd still need to swap some "and"s and "or"s. And the text quoted by Starmill from London Midland's website has no evening restrictions, and is further inconsistent with the electronic restrictions on brfares (eg. in whether you can get the 08:46 from Euston to Crewe).
 

Starmill

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The restriction text on nationalrail.co.uk is wrong - it's subtly missing some "not"s at the start of each paragraph.
I don't think it can be because that's at odds with:
- The information above on the London Northwestern Railway website
- The trains the online journey planner at www.lnr.co.uk offers Off Peak tickets for

Even if your guess were correct, you couldn't argue that someone travelling today should travel in line with the times shown online.

I'd also love to know what 0932 actually has to do with anything!
 
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