The nationalisation debate belongs in a separate thread as it's not as simple as saying that trains only depart early, without waiting for valid connections, if they are operated by two delay companies. Some companies won't wait for their own trains even if customers will face a delay of over an hour as a result. It's a separate argument.
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Transport Minister rants at Greater Anglia due to missed connection
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This is true, but I would hope that in that scenario the decision on the ground (and to be clear, I'm not saying that anyone on the ground in this instance made the wrong decision) might be guided less by the financial impact on a single TOC, but made more for the benefit of all. The current system incentivises Abelio to be (entirely reasonably) more bothered about the financial impact to their train being delayed, than the financial impact on GTR of their customers missing their connection.
Yes the current system is wrong and flawed, though even if it was the same TOC, the incentives are the same; few passengers bother to reclaim delay repay so they won't be bothered about the financial impact of that. And they don'tcare about reputational damage of missed connections, at least not enough to hold them, in many cases.
I do like to see instances that go against this trend, such as what I witnessed at Newton Abbot last week. It was nice to see. But I also know that some people would have strongly disagreed with it, and would have made the train depart 30 seconds early if they had been the ones making the decision.
I do like to see instances that go against this trend, such as what I witnessed at Newton Abbot last week. It was nice to see. But I also know that some people would have strongly disagreed with it, and would have made the train depart 30 seconds early if they had been the ones making the decision.
Everyone knows all politicians are evil corrupt scum only interested in their narcissic desire for power, and so deserve everything bad that happens to them, even if that includes having dog mess smeared on their doors apparently. It is one the good old UK pastimes to politician bash, people conveniently forgetting who it was that put these people in such positions of authority. Combine that with the bias on here towards defending the rail network where remotely possible because some people's identities are tied up with it, and it is no surprise at all why the responses are what they are.
wireforever
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George who? junior minister thinks he's important I am pretty sure passengers with more important matters/appointments than him missed there connection as well if he has nothing better to do perhaps he could help BA sort out their continual IT issues
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Part of the problem here might be that if you hold the doors for the people sprinting down the platform, by the time they are on board there are some less nimble people visible and waving for the train to be held, and finally someone in a wheelchair (what would travel assistance do in this situation?) or with several big bags. By the time they've all trundled down several minutes could have gone by.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
There seems to be a lack of appreciation of just how tight and busy the railway in East Anglia is these days. The Cambridge-Norwich service is booked through Ely North Junction, with its multiple single leads. In the following 58 minutes there are no fewer than 16 other timetabled moves. This is relatively typical hour. Any lateness can ripple on for ages over many routes.
Approaching Norwich the train from Cambridge clears the single line Trowse Swing Bridge just before a Norwich-Liverpool Street. If it waits to let the London train precede it will probably break the connection for Great Yarmouth at 1136.
Cambridge is despatching trains over two routes to London, both of which are 'at capacity' (in the Lee Valley and at Welwyn Viaduct); to Stansted Airport (with an 'at capacity' single line tunnel approach); to Ipswich via a single line to Kennett and a single lead at Haughley Junction; to Norwich via single tracks at Ely North and Trowse; to Kings Lynn via a single lead and single line; and Peterborough. Only the last mentioned isn't a performance collapse waiting to happen.
I must admit to some sympathy with the minister. I was on my way to a close relative's funeral once and had to change at Birmingham International into a Central Trains Coventry local. This had been delayed at New Street and was then sent non-stop to Coventry leaving me with an hour's wait. Very distressing but hats off to Virgin. I went to their Customer Assistance desk and was immediately put in a taxi direct to the funeral at their expense even though it was nothing to do with them. Afterwards I wrote a letter of commendation to the MD and the member of staff concerned was soon promoted. It is possible to turn this sort of experience into something positive, rather than an angry tweet.
Approaching Norwich the train from Cambridge clears the single line Trowse Swing Bridge just before a Norwich-Liverpool Street. If it waits to let the London train precede it will probably break the connection for Great Yarmouth at 1136.
Cambridge is despatching trains over two routes to London, both of which are 'at capacity' (in the Lee Valley and at Welwyn Viaduct); to Stansted Airport (with an 'at capacity' single line tunnel approach); to Ipswich via a single line to Kennett and a single lead at Haughley Junction; to Norwich via single tracks at Ely North and Trowse; to Kings Lynn via a single lead and single line; and Peterborough. Only the last mentioned isn't a performance collapse waiting to happen.
I must admit to some sympathy with the minister. I was on my way to a close relative's funeral once and had to change at Birmingham International into a Central Trains Coventry local. This had been delayed at New Street and was then sent non-stop to Coventry leaving me with an hour's wait. Very distressing but hats off to Virgin. I went to their Customer Assistance desk and was immediately put in a taxi direct to the funeral at their expense even though it was nothing to do with them. Afterwards I wrote a letter of commendation to the MD and the member of staff concerned was soon promoted. It is possible to turn this sort of experience into something positive, rather than an angry tweet.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
What you miss is that this story is the good old fashioned minister makes himself look like a t*t story.
I hope it really inconvenienced him and messed his day up so he sees what it is like for us mere mortals. Perhaps he might then pause and think if he could use his position to help people
Whilst I don't disagree that it is more complex I would argue-
all things being equal
a) the more fragmented the network the more poor connection decisions will be made.
b) the more the network is run on the basis of bus banditry rather than public interest the more poor connection decisions will be made.
dk1
Veteran Member
Said this time & time again. You get passengers who say I'm due in at 15:24 so why can't you hold the 15:22 for two minutes for example. Well we all know that doesn't add up as even in the unlikely event they made it across in a minute then that's three minutes lost before you even start the dispatch process. Add to that those slightly slower, then those dawdling behind with cases & before you know it you are a seven late start, you've lost your path & delayed countless other trains severing many more connections along the way. Obviously people like him & so many more only see their plight & not the bigger picture. Explain it until you are blue in the face & still they argue.
Whilst railways require millions in taxpayer subsidies, political accountability is unavoidable.
Bungle158
Member
In my day as a guard, unless advised by control, you dispatched to time. Obviously we used a little discretion, but l remember being castigated by management for not closing the doors and going, despite a horde of running , would be punters at St Erth on a St Ives service.
Jozhua
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Obviously very frustrating but not much that can be done about it...unless you are the TRANSPORT MINISTER.
I think a strongly worded email to GA would have sufficed, a Twitter rant just makes you look like a t***...
At least this experience shows him the frustration other passengers face when having to use the railway and now important timely running is. They probably shouldn't have held the train, considering if it was late then people on that train could have missed their connections. Also I get a sense that he might actually use the railway once in a while, so could have a motivation to improve it.
I think a strongly worded email to GA would have sufficed, a Twitter rant just makes you look like a t***...
At least this experience shows him the frustration other passengers face when having to use the railway and now important timely running is. They probably shouldn't have held the train, considering if it was late then people on that train could have missed their connections. Also I get a sense that he might actually use the railway once in a while, so could have a motivation to improve it.
Indeed , and then before you know it the TOC is accused of discriminating against non able bodied passengers for leaving behind slower passengers or those in wheelchairs .
Maybe the national rail app and other journey planning tools should use information about a trains average punctuality to not show itineraries with connections which are tight and have a train involved that regularly runs late ?
Jozhua
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Yes, totally agree. Then factor in the fact disabled people may struggle with time on stations further down the line due to the fact it has been delayed to let on passengers from another delayed service.
I think the railway has to focus on recovering as fast as possible, sometimes this means a few get left behind, but hey, delay repay!
I think it should be shown in the ininerary, but definitely show warnings that the connection is tight and passengers frequently miss it.
When I book longer distance tickets and I'm not in a rush, I almost always get it from my local station because I know it will likely get cancelled and get me a refund!
At this point it's barely a joke, just had two delay repay payments approved from two journeys on the same route in a row, waiting to hear back on my third...
philthetube
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When I book longer distance tickets and I'm not in a rush, I almost always get it from my local station because I know it will likely get cancelled and get me a refund!
At this point it's barely a joke, just had two delay repay payments approved from two journeys on the same route in a row, waiting to hear back on my third...
I see I am not the only one who plans journeys around delay repay then.
Jozhua
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No, certainly not! It's a very reliable source of cashback, especially when Northern, Transpennine Express or the Castlefield Corridor is involved
(Sometimes all three for my trips!)He's now been sounding off on twitter (can't find the tweet to quote right now) that direct Kings Cross-Norwich are a "priority" for him.
So, good news, Breckland Line electrification and 12 car Waterbeach? Maybe split the King's Lynn services at Ely? Revolutionary! Could be a little tight to timetable (as noted). Beyond that can't see any issues, I'm sure the budget will be easy to find.
Alternatively he's just spouting nonsense.
So, good news, Breckland Line electrification and 12 car Waterbeach? Maybe split the King's Lynn services at Ely? Revolutionary! Could be a little tight to timetable (as noted). Beyond that can't see any issues, I'm sure the budget will be easy to find.
Alternatively he's just spouting nonsense.
dk1
Veteran Member
Let's go with the latter shall we? Hes acting like a spoiled brat.
Jozhua
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By the sounds of it this new guy is going to make HS2 run purely between London and Norwich.
Okay, I just read up his plans as Transport Secretary and he wants to use East Anglia (his constituency) as a test-bed for "new Victorian" approaches to building rail...whatever that means. Basically he's going to divert a load of funding to where he lives to get some nice junctions and trains. Whether East Anglia is in need of this or not, I don't know, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of the rest of the country, which also has many areas in significant need of investment...
Really just sounds like a spoilt child kicking all his toys out the pram on the first day and asking for more. This follows Chris Grayling's frankly comical dismantling of crucial major infrastructure projects, some of which were half completed at the time of cancellation, leaving taxpayers and passengers worse off than if they had just not been completed in the first place *ahem* Ordsall Chord *ahem*
Okay, I just read up his plans as Transport Secretary and he wants to use East Anglia (his constituency) as a test-bed for "new Victorian" approaches to building rail...whatever that means. Basically he's going to divert a load of funding to where he lives to get some nice junctions and trains. Whether East Anglia is in need of this or not, I don't know, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of the rest of the country, which also has many areas in significant need of investment...
Really just sounds like a spoilt child kicking all his toys out the pram on the first day and asking for more. This follows Chris Grayling's frankly comical dismantling of crucial major infrastructure projects, some of which were half completed at the time of cancellation, leaving taxpayers and passengers worse off than if they had just not been completed in the first place *ahem* Ordsall Chord *ahem*
Class 170101
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This one I think you are looking for
https://twitter.com/frxnny/status/1159019433085603842?s=20
Could also convert Kings Cross to Kings Lynn to Bi-mode trains and detach a portion of a 12 carriage train at either Cambridge or Ely, I don't think both services to Ely / Kings Lynn call at Waterbeach. However finding a path each way between Ely and Norwich via Ely North Jn and Trowse Jn will be interesting.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
Could be good news for Ely North, Queen Adelaide (or bad news if you're a fan of level crossings), Haughley, Felixstowe doubling, Cambridge South and four-tracking to Shepreth Branch Junction, East West...
But I'm sure every other region has a list of deserving projects that is at least as long.
lordbusiness
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He's my local MP.
He's a .......
But no worse than many politicians.
He's another example of someone who had Hornby Trainset when they were 8 so thinks he knows everything about running a railway.
He's a .......
But no worse than many politicians.
He's another example of someone who had Hornby Trainset when they were 8 so thinks he knows everything about running a railway.
Wivenswold
Established Member
Okay, firstly my potential conflict of interest is that I'm a card carrying Green Party member.
This is quite normal for MPs. There are a few good ones out there (Dominic Grieve, Yvette Cooper, Mhari Black spring to mind) but generally they are people of privilege, immensely self-obsessed and dense. He'll be the Non-executive Director of a company that benefited from his time in office soon. Leeches most of them and thick as pigs doings.
This is quite normal for MPs. There are a few good ones out there (Dominic Grieve, Yvette Cooper, Mhari Black spring to mind) but generally they are people of privilege, immensely self-obsessed and dense. He'll be the Non-executive Director of a company that benefited from his time in office soon. Leeches most of them and thick as pigs doings.
This happened to me last on delayed Paddington - Paignton which they announced would terminate at Newton Abbot but there would be another train waiting to take us to Torquay. Of course we stopped outside Newton Abbot while the local left to enable us to get into the platform - and presumably sit there until it went back to London. Only three platforms & Newton Abbot and only loop between there and Exeter being at Dawlish Warren seems to cause many problems.
Sorry, previous post was a bit off topic - but in response to the original subject, I'm glad that the minister has seen what regular rail travellers often experience. Sometimes trains aren't held for the sake of the overall service but others it is down to the operators wanting to avoid fines - a system that is down to the way the government wants the railways run.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
As has been said so many times before, there are no 'fines' for delaying a train.
At a more strategic level, Delay Attribution (invented by BR) captures the why and where of disruption and thus permits a rational consideration of how problems might be reduced in future (e.g. timetable alterations or enhanced facilities).
The Performance Regimes are the best available means of understanding how much revenue is at risk from poor performance and can provide at least of part of the financial justification for 'doing something'. (There are, of course, other costs of poor performance such as Delay Repay, staff overtime and taxis that can also be brought to bear in analysing what it may be 'worth doing' to improve matters.)
Apologies. So when railway staff tell me this they are wrong.
Like the one at Hereford who told me that's why they let the Ledbury train depart as changing passengers walked down the platform.
Like the member of GWR station staff who told me a few weeks ago that the company got fined £200 for every minute the train was delayed.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Sadly plenty of front line rail staff have been fed the lines about ‘fines’.
It has always been the case that poor performance costs business. Even back in BR days I can think of plenty of disgruntled passengers finally struggling off delayed trains or replacement buses and, spotting the Station Manager, were very pleased to advise him that they would “drive next time”, “wouldn’t use BR again in a month of Sunday’s”, etc.
It has always been the case that poor performance costs business. Even back in BR days I can think of plenty of disgruntled passengers finally struggling off delayed trains or replacement buses and, spotting the Station Manager, were very pleased to advise him that they would “drive next time”, “wouldn’t use BR again in a month of Sunday’s”, etc.
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