Leyland National: Success or Failure?

A0wen · 24 Jan 2018

Jordan Adam said:
Just having a look now and it was the VRS-L batch that were disposed off very prematurely in 1979 at 6 years old.

Some of the early Leyland Nationals had relatively short shelf-lives. London Country - a significant user of the type who took over 500 of them onto their fleet disposed of the first ones in under 10 years. Yet the later ones (from about 1980) lasted much longer - well into the late 90s.

The very early 11.3m "Mk 1"s had a lot of foibles mentioned around here - the siting of the batteries being one issue, not the most robust of build - from about 1975 on Leyland had made changes to them and they were proving surprisingly robust. The last of them - the 'B' series Leyland National just seemed to go on and on, disappearing after Leyland National 2s had.

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james60059 · 24 Jan 2018

Personally, I loved the Leyland Nationals.

I remember Vanguard Coaches in Coventry ALWAYS used one on the school run to Woodway Park School, this would have been 1993/4 time. Happy Times too :smile:

Bookd · 24 Jan 2018

From a passengers view the trim was probably the worst aspect at the start - was this dictated by BL or down to the operator?
It took imagination to describe London Transport RFs as coaches, but the seats were reasonably comfortable - when London Country introduced Nationals with vinyl seats on the long distance Green Line services it was another nail in the coffin.

A0wen · 25 Jan 2018

Bookd said:
From a passengers view the trim was probably the worst aspect at the start - was this dictated by BL or down to the operator?
It took imagination to describe London Transport RFs as coaches, but the seats were reasonably comfortable - when London Country introduced Nationals with vinyl seats on the long distance Green Line services it was another nail in the coffin.

It was a Leyland / NBC central spec AIUI. It was only after a couple of years did Leyland yield, initially keeping the low-backed bus seats but with fabric rather than vinyl, then followed by high-backed seats.

Leyland were similarly 'obstructive' over the colours a bus could be delivered in - that was for a long time - the example I recall reading about were LT's Nationals which were delivered in all over red, then were despatched to Chiswick or Aldenham to have their doors painted yellow and for white or grey relief on the bodywork. Why BL couldn't do this, who knows?

carlberry · 25 Jan 2018

A0wen said:
It was a Leyland / NBC central spec AIUI. It was only after a couple of years did Leyland yield, initially keeping the low-backed bus seats but with fabric rather than vinyl, then followed by high-backed seats.

Leyland were similarly 'obstructive' over the colours a bus could be delivered in - that was for a long time - the example I recall reading about were LT's Nationals which were delivered in all over red, then were despatched to Chiswick or Aldenham to have their doors painted yellow and for white or grey relief on the bodywork. Why BL couldn't do this, who knows?

There is a book 'Beyond Reality' that has lots of details about how a world class set of heavy vehicles manufacturers (AEC, Daimler, Leyland etc) were turned into a basket case by management and a government that was more interested in what was happening in the car division at the time. The development of the National suffered as a result of this, however it's success only came because NBC subsidiaries couldn't buy anything else at the time.

GusB · 25 Jan 2018

A0wen said:
It was a Leyland / NBC central spec AIUI. It was only after a couple of years did Leyland yield, initially keeping the low-backed bus seats but with fabric rather than vinyl, then followed by high-backed seats.

Leyland were similarly 'obstructive' over the colours a bus could be delivered in - that was for a long time - the example I recall reading about were LT's Nationals which were delivered in all over red, then were despatched to Chiswick or Aldenham to have their doors painted yellow and for white or grey relief on the bodywork. Why BL couldn't do this, who knows?

carlberry said:
There is a book 'Beyond Reality' that has lots of details about how a world class set of heavy vehicles manufacturers (AEC, Daimler, Leyland etc) were turned into a basket case by management and a government that was more interested in what was happening in the car division at the time. The development of the National suffered as a result of this, however it's success only came because NBC subsidiaries couldn't buy anything else at the time.

It did seem rather short-sighted to only provide buses in a single colour to begin with, but was a joint venture that was initially set up to produce vehicles for NBC. To quote from Doug Jack's Beyond Reality to which @carlberry refers:

The next section in the operation was colour painting of the exterior, where the operation cycle times for preparation/baking were 30 minutes. Within a year or so, the track was altered so that buses could pass back round the preparation and paint line if they required a two colour paint finish

In the first year or two at Workington there was a great reluctance to do anything other than a very limited selection of mono-colours - a policy which attracted criticism from several customers. The application of second colours was almost invariably sub-contracted, but later the plant became more flexible in its capabilities.

These days it wouldn't be seen to be too much of an issue churning out a vehicle in a single colour - just apply a vinyl wrap.

Busaholic · 26 Jan 2018

With limited exceptions, the National saw few sales in the municipal sector or with PTEs.

Welshman · 26 Jan 2018

Busaholic said:
With limited exceptions, the National saw few sales in the municipal sector or with PTEs.

IIRC, West Yorkshire metro bought just one!

A0wen · 26 Jan 2018

Busaholic said:
With limited exceptions, the National saw few sales in the municipal sector or with PTEs.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. The National was bought in quantity by most of the major PTEs - GM, Merseyside, WM.

Of the Municipals, some bought Nationals, some tried to continue with their old loyalties and used 'high floor' vehicles such as Leopards which weren't necessarily ideal.

TheGrandWazoo · 26 Jan 2018

A0wen said:
I'm not sure that's a fair statement. The National was bought in quantity by most of the major PTEs - GM, Merseyside, WM.

Of the Municipals, some bought Nationals, some tried to continue with their old loyalties and used 'high floor' vehicles such as Leopards which weren't necessarily ideal.

Indeed - very early customers were Tyneside PTE, Nottingham CT and Plymouth CT.

West Midlands inherited some from Midland Red but bought a lot new. Merseyside and GM also bought substantial numbers. Other municipalities who bought were Cynon Valley, Taff Ely, Artlepools, Burnley, Northampton.

enrag2000 · 27 Jan 2018

Southport Corporation took a batch prior to the Merseyside PTE takeover. They were delivered in white and repainted into the Corporation's colours before entering service.

61653 HTAFC · 27 Jan 2018

Welshman said:
IIRC, West Yorkshire metro bought just one!

Though at some point after deregulation, the Halifax depots of what was then Yorkshire Rider had a fair fleet of National 2s. Not sure where they came from though.

pdq · 27 Jan 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Though at some point after deregulation, the Halifax depots of what was then Yorkshire Rider had a fair fleet of National 2s. Not sure where they came from though.

Rider York definitely had loads in the early 90s when I was at uni there, before they were replaced with the Daf Icaruses (Icari?).

A0wen · 27 Jan 2018

Welshman said:
IIRC, West Yorkshire metro bought just one!

City of Oxford - an NBC company - didn't take any. And Southern Vectis got rid of theirs quite quickly, replacing them with second hand Bristol REs. But they were the exception.

TheGrandWazoo · 27 Jan 2018

A0wen said:
City of Oxford - an NBC company - didn't take any. And Southern Vectis got rid of theirs quite quickly, replacing them with second hand Bristol REs. But they were the exception.

Think you're mistaken - Southern Vectis get most of there's for some time with most of the 1973 examples were withdrawn in mid 1985, being sold to Bristol Omnibus (11m) or United Auto (10m). The ones that United got were in excellent condition! The ones that went to Bristol Omnibus were used to replace the last REs on city services there. I don't think SVOC got any secondhand REs - suspect minibuses replaced them (as was often the case at that time). They got rid of their remaining (R reg) Nationals quite soon deregulation - think Halton bought some of them when they expanded.

City of Oxford apparently ordered some Mk2 with high backed seats and high speed axles for the 190 to London (eeek!!) though common sense prevailed and Leopards arrived instead.

As a United Auto area person, I remember that they had a real mix of Nationals with fully auto ones being ordered but (with the problems of deliveries and shortages in the late 1970s/early 1980s) they then gained some semi autos diverted from Yorkshire Traction, M&D etc. However, that was quite subdued compared to their secondhand purchases with a range of vehicles from numerous sources (and of dubious condition).

TheGrandWazoo · 27 Jan 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Though at some point after deregulation, the Halifax depots of what was then Yorkshire Rider had a fair fleet of National 2s. Not sure where they came from though.

WYPTE had a solitary National - think it was ordered by LCT. However, they purchased a batch of short Mk2s (LUA-V) new.

However, the ones in York were predominantly ones that were inherited from West Yorkshire Road Car of both Mk1 and Mk2 varieties.

Chris217 · 27 Mar 2019

The Cardiff Bus ones were hellfire.
212-221 JBO352-354,345-351N.
Fully automatic gearbox.
Destination flaps banging open and closed on some gear changes.
Funny,the gear ratios were different on each of them for some reason.
Kick down into 1st gear for the thrash...
Music to my ears.
CMT Buses got 216-218/220/221 in 1989.
Horrified they got changed to semi auto tbh.
220 and 221 operated in orange livery for a while too.
Always preferred the 10.3m mk1s.
When I was a trainee driver at Arriva Speak,I learnt on some DOC/V DAF re-engined Nationals.
The Smokey 510s are the best tho.

scosutsut · 27 Mar 2019

As a teenage passenger in the Kelvin Central days I loved the variety and somewhat dubious quality of what they used, but their rag-tag collection of Nationals were always a favourite of mine and were often the oldest thing they had on the road (which was quite an achievement as their fleet was archaic up until about 1996/7)

randyrippley · 27 Mar 2019

Three blue-seated examples ended up with Stagecoach in Morecambe, they'd originated as some kind of prototype batch at Barrow Corporation. I was told there was something odd about them, but can't remember what.

Chris217 · 28 Mar 2019

Maybe they had 2 speed ZF gearboxes
Like some of Cardiff Bus ones
201-211
Only 2 gears! They were beasts if you loved National thrash!
Screamed in 1st gear til about 30mph
then changed into 2nd!
Didn't like hills and were prone to overheating. Especially going up Leckwith Hill and Penylan Hill.
They were banned going up Caerphilly mountain. Even the proper Nationals,ha in fact nearly everything actually struggled getting up there lol.
Did this route 100s of times in Nationals,VR's and Olympians .
Never saw an Ailsa Volvo on it tho. I guess they were banned too?

sannox · 28 Mar 2019

Who was the last operator of a National in public service? Konnect bus had one for a while which saw sporadic use.

carlberry · 28 Mar 2019

sannox said:
Who was the last operator of a National in public service? Konnect bus had one for a while which saw sporadic use.

It might depend what you mean. Quite a few of the preserved ones are likely to have class VI MOTs and could be used for up to 20 days or on rail replacement and their may be a few company pets (like the Konnect one) around still.

Chris217 · 28 Mar 2019

CMT had theirs til 1999.
Chase Bus had some around the same time I think,but not 100% when they got rid of their last one.

A0wen · 28 Mar 2019

Chris217 said:
CMT had theirs til 1999.
Chase Bus had some around the same time I think,but not 100% when they got rid of their last one.

Chase were operating theirs until they ceased operation in 2007.

I think most major operators had withdrawn them by that point, so it'll be down to a few independents.

Jordan Adam · 28 Mar 2019

I'm fairly certain the last would have been Konectbus's UFX852S (Mentioned above) which remained in fairly regular use until May 2014.

Wirewiper · 3 Apr 2019

Busaholic said:
Loughton never had RMs, of course, so no direct conversions there. Actually, I can't off-hand think of any direct conversions to LS from RM, but I stand to be corrected. I take your main point, though.

There is one I can think of - route 261 was introduced as an RM route in September 1982 to replace the Lewisham-Bromley section of the 94 and parts of the 47 and 51. It was converted to LS in April 1983, as all Bromley (TB) OPO routes were LS operated at that time. It gained double-deck T operation in April 1985.

Bcn1973 · 8 Aug 2019

Our local company Burnley and pendle was a keen national user buying 15 mk 1, 7 national 2s, and a further 17 second hand mk1s and 6 mk2s the mk1s ran for 13 years til the new manager got rid due to a dislike of the 510 engine, all of them went for further service, the mk2s lasted into stagecoach ownership, with some going to roadcar, nearly all the batches had different interiors, and the ones bought brand new had zf boxes, as the only east Lancashire municipal to run them in any numbers for Burnley at least they were a success

Statto · 8 Aug 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Indeed - very early customers were Tyneside PTE, Nottingham CT and Plymouth CT.

West Midlands inherited some from Midland Red but bought a lot new. Merseyside and GM also bought substantial numbers. Other municipalities who bought were Cynon Valley, Taff Ely, Artlepools, Burnley, Northampton.

Merseyside PTE was quite late buying Nationals, as St Helens had Swifts, & Liverpool had Panthers, so MPTE didn't need nationals straight away. so missed out on some of the issues of the early builds, first batch brought new was from 1977[Southport nationals were already in the fleet when PTE took over Southport], & went on to have a couple of hundred in the fleet, & given fleet number 6xxx & 7xxx, MPTE brought mostly MKIIs.

Chris217 · 8 Aug 2019

I wonder how many operators took on Nationals with ZF gearbox.
I know we had 2 speed ZF Nationals in Cardiff (201-211),Barrow had some. Now Burnley & Pendle too.
I wonder if any survive in preservation

Mitchell Hurd · 8 Aug 2019

I'm only 26 but from looking at old classic bus magazines, I think it was the Leyland 510 engine that might have been the main course of questioning whether the Leyland National was a success or failure.

The repowering of most Nationals with Leyland TL11, Leyland 680, Cummins L10 (I think) and DAF engines were meant to improve the reliability of Nationals. Whether this was the case I'm not sure.

Leyland National: Success or Failure?

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