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SELF-DRIVING CARS

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Cowley

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Maybe not in the UK but still in many areas it will be needed. Saying that, the Arctic was 25C today so floating cars soon instead?
They’re called “Boats” reddragon. :lol:
 
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DerekC

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Cars with autonomy level 2 already have half the accidents and those with level 3 a third of the accidents of pure human driven cars. Driver-less cars are already safer, we are just not ready to accept that yet.

Statistical evidence for this statement, please. I don't doubt that driverless cars could be safer when technology is ready, but I don't think it is nearly there yet. And please define your autonomy levels - I have seen several different definitions.

My experience with Adaptive Cruise Control is that it is great on a motorway when there is not much traffic about, but it can't cope with anything complicated without constant intervention. A good example is the car in front taking a tight exit lane on a dual carriageway while I am going straight on. I can see that the car is out of my lane, but ACC if not encouraged with a toe on the accelerator will brake hard. If unrestrained it happily bashes on at 70mph in the inside lane with middle lane traffic doing 55 because of congestion .. and it's useless on a fast, winding single carriageway A road.

I took a ride in a colleague's Tesla a couple of years ago. Very impressive until it happily read the numbers on the front of approaching buses as speed limits! (A software update has apparently fixed the bug now, but …..)
 

Cowley

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I took a ride in a colleague's Tesla a couple of years ago. Very impressive until it happily read the numbers on the front of approaching buses as speed limits! (A software update has apparently fixed the bug now, but …..)
Blimey. I wouldn’t fancy one passing the local 377 bus if it hadn’t been updated.
 

507 001

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All sounds good. What's not to like?

My Volvo has most of it. The only thing it doesn’t have is the GPS speed limiter, which is mostly what my complaint is about.

- lane keeping assist is a PITA. It makes country lanes more or less undriveable. Motorways it’s a little more useful, but if you want to change lanes without indicating if there’s no cars around (which is how I was taught to drive) then it either shakes the wheel or drags you back into the lane. It’s also not uncommon for it to pick the white line up even when you’re nowhere near it and yank the wheel. I have now turned it off permanently.
- auto braking. Useful, but over sensitive. Heading for a gap between two parked cars on a housing estate? You’re gonna set the alarm off. Parked car in front of you that you’re going to avoid by miles? You’re going to set the alarm off. Also promotes bad driving habits because people start to think ‘I don’t need to look out for xxxx or yyyy because the car will automatically stop.
- mine has GPS speed recognition and traffic sign recognition. It’s frequently wrong. If I drive past my local Asda petrol station, which is on a 30mph dual carriageway, it picks up the 5mph signat the entrance. If this was linked to the limiter you’d be doing 5 till you pass the next limit sign which is about half a mile away. Interestingly, mine will pick up overhead gantries etc. Let’s face it though, we all know roads where the speed limit is too low, and most will sit at 32-35 in a 30 without issue because that’s the speed the car likes to sit at. As I’ve said before, I like to drive. I don’t want a computer making decisions for me. I don’t want a computer to cut me off when I’m driving naturally.

I do like the adaptive cruise on motorways though, weirdly....
 

jon0844

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Adaptive cruise control is great, but it does indeed get confused when a car pulls off. Isn't that precisely how someone in a Tesla died, because the car in front pulled away and the car floored it into barriers?

The tech works to let you rest your feet, but you need to remain alert at all times.
 

reddragon

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Like all tech, its developing. I turned off Lane keep due to country lanes but it still works when cruise control.
 

underbank

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I tried cruise control a couple of times when I bought my latest car. Didn't like it at all. Kept getting too close to the cars in front - I kept trying to "tweak" the speed incrementally to get it the same, but then you end up too slow. A few times I got closer than I'd like to the cars in front and had to over-ride it. Couldn't really see the point and it frightened me that I tended to lose concentration. So, I didn't use it again for a couple of years.

Then a couple of months ago, I was going through the miles of 50mph roadworks on the M6 on a quiet Saturday evening with very little traffic about. Thought I'd give it a try and set it to 52mph and it was absolutely brilliant - kept me from being fined for speeding, and because there was so little traffic, I don't think I had to "tweak" it or over-ride it once.

So, from my experience, don't like it and wouldn't use it on a normal/busy motorway, but loved it and worked well when quiet through roadworks.
 

reddragon

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Most legacy cars have quite a basic system in place as the ICE is not well suited to this type of autonomy whereas EVs are.

My EV is level 2, so it deals well with traffic and is a real bonus on heavy traffic on motorway roadworks with narrow lanes. It can also do start stop traffic. You have to remain alert though! As for distance, I have 3 levels which I can choose. Yes you do need to be aware of lane changing, poor lane marking etc, which is why it is assist only. Lane keep works and if set right, as in only on when in self drive its fine. I turned it off for normal driving, but even then if the red light indicates a car in the adjacent lane the steering forces you to stay in lane. The Teslas are now at level 3 (the ones that crashed were level 2) with much updated software to stop the accidents that have happened.

If you manage and use these aids as safety features, driving is much safer. If you are a twit then you will still crash!

SAE (J3016) Automation Levels

SAE Level Name Narrative definition Execution of steering and acceleration/ deceleration Monitoring of driving environment Fallback performance of dynamic driving task System capability (driving modes)

Human driver monitors the driving environment

0 No Automation The full-time performance by the human driver of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even when "enhanced by warning or intervention systems" Human driver Human driver Human driver n/a

1 Driver Assistance The driving mode-specific execution by a driver assistance system of "either steering or acceleration/deceleration" using information about the driving environment and with the expectation that the human driver performs all remaining aspects of the dynamic driving task Human driver and system Some driving modes

2 Partial Automation The driving mode-specific execution by one or more driver assistance systems of both steering and acceleration/deceleration System

Automated driving system monitors the driving environment

3 Conditional Automation The driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene System System Human driver Some driving modes

4 High Automation even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene System Many driving modes

5 Full Automation under all roadway and environmental conditions that can be managed by a human driver All driving modes
 

DerekC

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I think the usefulness in its current state depends on the driving you do. Most of mine is on lanes and single carriageway A-roads with occasional forays onto dual carriageways and motorways. so I don't find the ACC all that useful.

Wasn't there a "thought test" set by a Californian professor - something along the lines of "how good has automation got to be before I will send my elderly mother (who doesn't drive) and my young child off on their own for a journey across the country"? That does prompt you to think of all sorts of things in addition to the technology of automated driving - like security (both physical and cyber), response to breakdowns (the car would need some kind of crawl-out facility to get off the carriageway), communications (always-on needed across the whole highway network) - and probably lots more.
 

radamfi

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Riding a bike in winter weather is not particularly appealing, as the ONS transport mileage figures across the year demonstrate.

Because a large proportion of British cycling is recreational. In the Netherlands, where cycling is mostly for day-to-day travel, cycling is almost as prevalent in winter.
 

radamfi

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I'm afraid if we all wanted to live sustainably we would all live in London sized cities.
City dwellers consume much less energy and produce much less pollution due to easily available and good quality public transport and short commute distances etc.

Sustaining that level of public transport service in small towns is far beyond the means of government, given the political costs of taxation.

Cycling is the answer in thinly populated areas. The most rural province of the Netherlands, Drenthe, has a population density similar to Wales, yet has the highest cycle rates of any province in the country, and therefore the world.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2016/11/drenthe-worlds-cycling-province-now.html
 

AM9

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It’s an interesting point.
Perhaps snow will be one the few things we don’t have to worry about in the future though...
Global warming induces climate change. Climate change is expected to make weather more unpredictable and extreme. So we could end up with very wet and stormy weather interspersed with very hot and very cold waves.
 
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Cowley

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Global warming induces climate change. Climate change is expected to make weather more unpredictable and extreme. So we could en up with very wet and stomp weather interspersed with very hot and very cold waves.
Yes and we’re certainly no strangers to wet weather here at Cowley Bridge.
 

EssexGonzo

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I tried cruise control a couple of times when I bought my latest car. Didn't like it at all. Kept getting too close to the cars in front - I kept trying to "tweak" the speed incrementally to get it the same, but then you end up too slow. A few times I got closer than I'd like to the cars in front and had to over-ride it. Couldn't really see the point and it frightened me that I tended to lose concentration. So, I didn't use it again for a couple of years.

Then a couple of months ago, I was going through the miles of 50mph roadworks on the M6 on a quiet Saturday evening with very little traffic about. Thought I'd give it a try and set it to 52mph and it was absolutely brilliant - kept me from being fined for speeding, and because there was so little traffic, I don't think I had to "tweak" it or over-ride it once.

So, from my experience, don't like it and wouldn't use it on a normal/busy motorway, but loved it and worked well when quiet through roadworks.

That sounds like "non-adaptive" cruise control.

The newer, adaptive cruise control works in a similar manner with the addition that it will "attach" itself to traffic ahead and vary its speed according to that traffic. With all systems, you can vary the gap to the car in front to your preference. On a busy motorway, it will work really well, especially when the traffic is slower. Works well in roadworks.

Some will also stop and start almost autonomously, with a driver input (press a button or stalk) required to get started again.

The adaptive systems really do take the stress out of driving in slower traffic but they're not perfect. They're relatively dumb and can't anticipate. They can be quite sudden and also very conservative. They also can't deal with sudden manoeuvres ahead and can accelerate / brake sharply if left to their own devices - but that's not the fault of the car, that's down to the driver not paying attention.

We've just come back from France and several hundreds of miles on N (A) roads. If you're following another car, ACC is ideal. The added bonus is that ACC is nearly always bundled with brake assist that will virtually always stop you running into the car in front.
 

anme

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if you want to change lanes without indicating if there’s no cars around (which is how I was taught to drive)

That seems an utterly bizarre thing to be taught. Why on earth would you not ALWAYS indicate when changing lanes? It costs you nothing, and it's always possible that there is a car, bike, pedestrian etc around which you haven't seen.

Please ALWAYS indicate!
 

underbank

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That seems an utterly bizarre thing to be taught. Why on earth would you not ALWAYS indicate when changing lanes? It costs you nothing, and it's always possible that there is a car, bike, pedestrian etc around which you haven't seen.

Please ALWAYS indicate!

The Institute of Advanced Motorists teach you to only indicate when there's a need/reason. They are against automatic indicating. The reason is that they want you to think whether there's a need, i.e. to be aware of who is around you, including pedestrians. That thought process is what makes you safer and part of their "system" where you are constantly planning, identifying risks, etc. You'd get marked down in an advanced driving test if you indicate out of habit when there is no-one around who'd benefit.

Far too many drivers indicate without thinking, often too late, and treat an indicator as a right of way - i.e. "I've indicated so I can pull out into the next lane whether it's safe or not" - as seen daily on motorways by lorry drivers who blink and move regardless of who's in the next lane!
 

anme

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The Institute of Advanced Motorists teach you to only indicate when there's a need/reason. They are against automatic indicating. The reason is that they want you to think whether there's a need, i.e. to be aware of who is around you, including pedestrians. That thought process is what makes you safer and part of their "system" where you are constantly planning, identifying risks, etc. You'd get marked down in an advanced driving test if you indicate out of habit when there is no-one around who'd benefit.

Far too many drivers indicate without thinking, often too late, and treat an indicator as a right of way - i.e. "I've indicated so I can pull out into the next lane whether it's safe or not" - as seen daily on motorways by lorry drivers who blink and move regardless of who's in the next lane!

I totally disagree with that advice. It assumes that a driver will always see all risks around them, and will care enough to do something about them, which is simply not the case.

Saying that drivers shouldn't indicate because they might indicate badly is also bizarre. Always indicate, and indicate well.
 

underbank

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I totally disagree with that advice. It assumes that a driver will always see all risks around them, and will care enough to do something about them, which is simply not the case.

Saying that drivers shouldn't indicate because they might indicate badly is also bizarre. Always indicate, and indicate well.

It's all based on the police driver's "Roadcraft" manual and is well explained on one IAM group's website:-

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling
 

anme

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It's all based on the police driver's "Roadcraft" manual and is well explained on one IAM group's website:-

https://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php/articles/associate-s-guide/56-signalling

There is some sensible advice on that page, but I absolutely disagree with not signalling just because you can't see anyone who might benefit. There is never a guarantee that a driver has seen and correctly evaluated everyone and everything around them. You should always drive defensively, and bearing in mind that you are not a perfect driver and will miss and not correctly anticipate things from time to time.
 
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507 001

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That seems an utterly bizarre thing to be taught. Why on earth would you not ALWAYS indicate when changing lanes? It costs you nothing, and it's always possible that there is a car, bike, pedestrian etc around which you haven't seen.

Please ALWAYS indicate!

Because it makes you look, and it makes you look properly and not rely on other people’s abilities to get out of your way. Everyday on my commute to work (which involves a 28 mile run on the M62 each way) I see several people who just indicate and change lanes, regardless of what’s there.

I’ve been driving for ten years now, and have never had an accident. So forgive me if I say I’m going to carry on doing it the way I’ve been taught, the way the IAM teach and the way the Police teach before I listen to a stranger on the internet.

By the way, on a motorway or a lot of dual carriageways, if there’s a pedestrian or cyclist I haven’t seen, something has gone very, very wrong. :rolleyes:
 

anme

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Because it makes you look, and it makes you look properly.

I’ve been driving for ten years now, and have never had an accident. So forgive me if I say I’m going to carry on doing it the way I’ve been taught, the way the IAM teach and the way the Police teach before I listen to a stranger on the internet.

By the way, on a motorway or a lot of dual carriageways, if there’s a pedestrian or cyclist I haven’t seen, something has gone very, very wrong. :rolleyes:

It seems so bizarre and unjustifiable not to signal. What possible advantage does it bring? If the only reason you are looking around you is to check if you need to signal, something is very wrong.

The page quoted above even says that signalling is unnecessary at a junction if you can see there is no other traffic. I accept that in principle this is correct, but in practice there is ALWAYS a chance that the driver has missed something, because as human beings we make mistakes. Always signalling costs nothing, even if you can't see anything or anyone around you. It is obviously good defensive driving and might just save a life.
 

Lucan

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The Institute of Advanced Motorists teach you to only indicate when there's a need/reason. They are against automatic indicating. The reason is that they want you to think whether there's a need, i.e. to be aware of who is around you, including pedestrians ..... Far too many drivers indicate without thinking, often too late, and treat an indicator as a right of way
I find that advice shocking, and I am a safety professional. I cannot say I had a high opinion of the IAM before, but that demolishes it.

"Allowing" people not to signal is not going to make them think any more, in fact I suggest many will think less because not signalling will tend to make the manoeuvre seem unimportant, so therefore not worth much thought. I see plenty of non-signalling impulsive driving, and to me the non-signalling is part of that attitude. With me, signalling is the easy part of a "ritual" I do ever time, involving mirror, timing, signalling, manoeuvre.

Certainly many people get the timing of signalling wrong. Eg some drivers waiting to pull away from a kerb start signalling even before they put their seat belt on, and while a bunch of traffic is passing; but I wait for the bunch to pass before I signal because there is no need for the drivers in that bunch to know I will be pullling out after they have gone. Others leave signalling too late, but it is still better than nothing. I always allow at least a brief time between the signal and the start of the manoeuvre; it is all part of the thought process that the Bristol IAM seem to think I lack.

As Anme said, there may always be other road users you have not seen, especially with such poor visibility in modern cars [to make them more crash resistant I understand]. For example someone could emerge from a corner shop in a hurry and cross a side road you were turning into because they could already see from within the shop that you not signalling to do so.
 

Strat-tastic

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I can understand where IAM are coming from; I did an assessment drive with them once and this came up.

I have to say I disagree. I automatically signal each time; if it's built in to one's driving style as habit then there is one less thing to concentrate on; one fewer decision to make which frees up brain processing power for other decisions you need to make as you proceed. You're never going to get it wrong (from a signalling point of view).
 

underbank

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"Allowing" people not to signal is not going to make them think any more, in fact I suggest many will think less because not signalling will tend to make the manoeuvre seem unimportant, so therefore not worth much thought. I see plenty of non-signalling impulsive driving, and to me the non-signalling is part of that attitude. With me, signalling is the easy part of a "ritual" I do ever time, involving mirror, timing, signalling, manoeuvre.

The point you're missing is that the IAM approach isn't just indicating/not indicating as an isolated decision. It's part of the "system" of advanced driving.

>Course>mirror>signal>brake/speed>gear>accelerate> - you go through that thought process when approaching every "hazard" (which can be anything, i.e. a junction, a pelican crossing, a child, a cyclist, a mobility scooter, a bend in the road, a speed limit change, a slow vehicle ahead, etc etc.). IAM instructors/observers spend hours with drivers hammering that system into them and they won't pass the IAM advanced driving test if they don't slavishly follow it, every hazard, every time.

I.e. if there is a filter lane at a junction, far too many drivers drive into the filter lane and then decide to indicate once they're in it, often when they've stopped in the middle of queue of traffic. That shows a complete lack of road awareness/understanding and is a classic case of the auto-pilot mentality of pointless signalling. Once you're in the filter lane, there's absolutely no point in indicating. You're in a lane that is clearly marked with arrows etc., so cars behind you already know where you're going. The time to indicate was a long way back when you were approaching the filter lane and before you started changing your course towards it - that gives the following vehicles the "heads up" which lane you're going into. Once you're in it, turn off the indicator. (Of course, if there are pedestrians at the same junction, then you may feel the need to indicate to them as they may not know you're in a filter lane!).

On, say a motorway, if you need to indicate to "bully" your way into an overtaking lane, then you've already failed to plan your driving as you should have anticipated the need to overtake a fair way back, adjusted your own speed accordingly, and moved over into an overtaking lane when it was clear. You should drive in a way so that you don't cause anyone else to change their course/speed. Hence why there should be very little need to indicate on a free flowing motorway or dual carriageway.
 

underbank

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You're never going to get it wrong (from a signalling point of view).

Unfortunately, it starts to morph into an "I've signalled, so I'm going to do it" mentality where drivers bully into overtaking lanes, pulling out into traffic, causing other vehicles to change their course/speed.

There's also the very real risk of indicating too soon and causing other drivers to think you're turning at an earlier junction (i.e. at a roundabout or a side road before a main road junction), encouraging them to pull out right into your path.
 

anme

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The point you're missing is that the IAM approach isn't just indicating/not indicating as an isolated decision. It's part of the "system" of advanced driving.

>Course>mirror>signal>brake/speed>gear>accelerate> - you go through that thought process when approaching every "hazard" (which can be anything, i.e. a junction, a pelican crossing, a child, a cyclist, a mobility scooter, a bend in the road, a speed limit change, a slow vehicle ahead, etc etc.). IAM instructors/observers spend hours with drivers hammering that system into them and they won't pass the IAM advanced driving test if they don't slavishly follow it, every hazard, every time.

I.e. if there is a filter lane at a junction, far too many drivers drive into the filter lane and then decide to indicate once they're in it, often when they've stopped in the middle of queue of traffic. That shows a complete lack of road awareness/understanding and is a classic case of the auto-pilot mentality of pointless signalling. Once you're in the filter lane, there's absolutely no point in indicating. You're in a lane that is clearly marked with arrows etc., so cars behind you already know where you're going. The time to indicate was a long way back when you were approaching the filter lane and before you started changing your course towards it - that gives the following vehicles the "heads up" which lane you're going into. Once you're in it, turn off the indicator. (Of course, if there are pedestrians at the same junction, then you may feel the need to indicate to them as they may not know you're in a filter lane!).

On, say a motorway, if you need to indicate to "bully" your way into an overtaking lane, then you've already failed to plan your driving as you should have anticipated the need to overtake a fair way back, adjusted your own speed accordingly, and moved over into an overtaking lane when it was clear. You should drive in a way so that you don't cause anyone else to change their course/speed. Hence why there should be very little need to indicate on a free flowing motorway or dual carriageway.

Your examples emphasise the importance of always signalling!

As you say, you should keep indicating while in the filter lane because it may be helpful to other road users such as pedestrians or drivers coming from another direction who don't necessarily know that it's a filter lane. It will also help those who should know it's a filter lane but have missed the signs. People make mistakes.

I agree with everything you say about motorway driving - but signalling is still useful! It helps those around you to know your intentions, including those you may have missed seeing, and those whose speed or intentions you have misjudged.

It's better to always signal than to try to second guess what other people are thinking, and you must always be aware that even as an IAM driver you still make mistakes and miss things! Signalling costs nothing!
 
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anme

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Unfortunately, it starts to morph into an "I've signalled, so I'm going to do it" mentality where drivers bully into overtaking lanes, pulling out into traffic, causing other vehicles to change their course/speed.

There's also the very real risk of indicating too soon and causing other drivers to think you're turning at an earlier junction (i.e. at a roundabout or a side road before a main road junction), encouraging them to pull out right into your path.

That suggests drivers should drive and signal appropriately, not that it's OK not to signal.
 

reddragon

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My car has Level 2 autonomy. To change lanes when self driving, I have to either indicate or cancel the self drive to change lanes or exit a motorway. No hassle. I work on the basis that I am less attentive when its self driving, so indication is essential. Also, if there is a car in the way it still stops me lane changing even of I indicate.
 

Lucan

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you should keep indicating while in the filter lane because it may be helpful to other road users such as pedestrians or drivers coming from another direction who don't necessarily know that it's a filter lane. It will also help those who should know it's a filter lane but have missed the signs. People make mistakes.
Not necessarily mistakes, because very often the arrows painted on the road are covered by waiting cars and, if you don't know the area, the fact that cars in it are signalling is the only information you have that it is a filter lane.
 

Strat-tastic

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Unfortunately, it starts to morph into an "I've signalled, so I'm going to do it" mentality where drivers bully into overtaking lanes, pulling out into traffic, causing other vehicles to change their course/speed.

There's also the very real risk of indicating too soon and causing other drivers to think you're turning at an earlier junction (i.e. at a roundabout or a side road before a main road junction), encouraging them to pull out right into your path.

I like to think that I am still switched on to what's going on around me; my signals are to show my intentions not what's going to happen come what may.

And I time my roundabouts to perfection! ;)

In my most humble opinion of course :D
 
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