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UK TOCs to no longer accept Interrail passes from 2020 (decision now reversed)

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33056

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You are supposed to fill in the travel diary so that on-train staff checking tickets can see where you are going (though they rarely bother) but while they encourage you to send it in, it isn't compulsory so I don't think it is used directly to apportion the revenue.
Regarding filling in the travel diary, some countries are more keen on it being filled in than others (Slovenia and Croatia spring to mind) but more conductors generally seem to be expecting it to be filled in than a few years ago; perhaps there has been a move towards making on-train staff more aware of the terms and conditions in the last couple of years.
 
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Mike395

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I don't think that this is a particularly good move for the rail industry but a number of comments here belie the structure and decision making process of the industry. RDG does not have the power to make these decisions on behalf of the industry, The power sits with the DfT which specifies the contracts or concessions for train operators. Some of these powers are delegated to train operators which then manage these activities through schemes, managed initially by ATOC but latterly by RDG - it is the TOCs that direct these RDG decisions where the DfT chooses not to specify or mandate functions.
The DfT has not mandated the particiption in inbound Inter-Rail cards, and the TOCs through the governance of the relevant scheme have reacted to changes to the stucture of Inter-Rail passes that they consider will dilute their revenue by choosing to withdraw. It is not an RDG led decision, and the DfT has ultimate power to intervene (indeed as DfT have control over a number of TOCs they will have approved the relevant voting in a number of cases) but in this case have not done so.
There still seem to be people on this forum who assume that simply wresting away the industry from RDG and TOCs means these things would not happen, without realising that these things are under ultimately under control of government and the RDG/TOC structure is essentially used to create patsies to divert attention from the lack of joined up oversight and management of the network and to try and distance government from their own accountability. This is of course beginning to really come unstuck (as in the case of the GTR 2018 timetable) hence the Williams review.

Really interesting insight, thank you! One thought/question - when voting on issues like this is it as simple as 1 TOC = 1 vote? I'd have thought the Intercity TOCs would be far more supportive of Interrail as a model than suburban TOCs (and there's more of them!) so perhaps it was inevitable if so?
 

RT4038

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You've only got to look at post #1 to get some idea of why this decision may have been taken by the UK rail industry. When the Interail pass started, it was a one month ticket (for under 25s only). Gradually the product has been expanded in age and period options, to the extent that the ticket is probably undermining other more lucrative tickets. Just how much does the UK rail industry get out of a 3 days in one month global pass, which with the 'add-on' deal in own country can economically be used for a simple point to point return ticket considerably cheaper than 'normal' tickets?

There are often comments in this forum about the bewildering range of ticket types, and the difficulty of training staff to recognise them all and their correct validity. But as soon as a step is taken to simplify this, there are howls of anguish!
 

Taunton

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I recall from the early days of Interrail (where I was one) the journey diary, which a good many completed quite accurately, got some form of bonus when it was sent in. The diaries (or maybe just a sample of them) were used to aggregate the usage across each national network, and then split the revenue on that basis, I believe on a simple mileage basis (many European railways at the time still had simplistic rates per mile).

I think for typical, commonly touring student, usage the revenue and the split was fine, but it seems that as UK Anytime fares have risen to ludicrous levels (which even many businesses now refuse to use) it formed a significant pricing undercut.
 

Hadders

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I don't think that this is a particularly good move for the rail industry but a number of comments here belie the structure and decision making process of the industry. RDG does not have the power to make these decisions on behalf of the industry, The power sits with the DfT which specifies the contracts or concessions for train operators. Some of these powers are delegated to train operators which then manage these activities through schemes, managed initially by ATOC but latterly by RDG - it is the TOCs that direct these RDG decisions where the DfT chooses not to specify or mandate functions.
The DfT has not mandated the particiption in inbound Inter-Rail cards, and the TOCs through the governance of the relevant scheme have reacted to changes to the stucture of Inter-Rail passes that they consider will dilute their revenue by choosing to withdraw. It is not an RDG led decision, and the DfT has ultimate power to intervene (indeed as DfT have control over a number of TOCs they will have approved the relevant voting in a number of cases) but in this case have not done so.
There still seem to be people on this forum who assume that simply wresting away the industry from RDG and TOCs means these things would not happen, without realising that these things are under ultimately under control of government and the RDG/TOC structure is essentially used to create patsies to divert attention from the lack of joined up oversight and management of the network and to try and distance government from their own accountability. This is of course beginning to really come unstuck (as in the case of GTR 2018 timetable) hence the Williams review.

This is extremely interesting. TOCs are short term 'here today gone tomorrow' type businesses and really should not be allowed to make decisions like this if they will have long term effects beyond the tenure of their franchise.

Very poor from the DfT.
 

Andrew1395

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Really interesting insight, thank you! One thought/question - when voting on issues like this is it as simple as 1 TOC = 1 vote? I'd have thought the Intercity TOCs would be far more supportive of Interrail as a model than suburban TOCs (and there's more of them!) so perhaps it was inevitable if so?
Some (ATOC) schemes are one member one vote. Many are based on earnings. So SWR would have more (percentage) votes to cast than say East Midlands Trains. Generally the greater the earnings from a scheme the more the TOC pays for the costs of the scheme and therefore the greater say they have on decisions. Often the schemes have complex thresholds to deliver changes. This was designed at privatisation to ensure continuity.
 

Bevan Price

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This is extremely interesting. TOCs are short term 'here today gone tomorrow' type businesses and really should not be allowed to make decisions like this if they will have long term effects beyond the tenure of their franchise.

Very poor from the DfT.
Does anyone here expect anything sensible to emerge from DFt - regardless of who happens to be the minister in nominal charge ????
 
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I don't think that this is a particularly good move for the rail industry but a number of comments here belie the structure and decision making process of the industry. RDG does not have the power to make these decisions on behalf of the industry, The power sits with the DfT which specifies the contracts or concessions for train operators. Some of these powers are delegated to train operators which then manage these activities through schemes, managed initially by ATOC but latterly by RDG - it is the TOCs that direct these RDG decisions where the DfT chooses not to specify or mandate functions.
This is not really quite how it works. DfT could mandate IR participation in future franchises if it wanted to but RDG through its various councils was essentially set up to manage the long-term revenue strategy for the industry as a whole, including IR/Britail and Staff Travel. The default is that these 'powers' lie with the TOCs, not DfT. Only matters expressly reserved to DfT eg. changes to the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and Fares Regulation are, in the first instance, directly controlled by it.
 

yorkie

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There are often comments in this forum about the bewildering range of ticket types, and the difficulty of training staff to recognise them all and their correct validity. But as soon as a step is taken to simplify this, there are howls of anguish!
Abolishing or restricting good value tickets such as this causes badwill and will be opposed by us.
 

morrisobrien

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This seems interesting, according to the Daily Post.....Robert Nisbet,director of nations and regions at the RDG said ,when asked, "It is still under negotiation whether the pass will cover a return journey to the traveller's home station".
 

RLBH

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Why does it matter where I’m going on such a pass? As long as it is valid for that country, date and class of travel is all that matters. It is frankly an utter waste of time.
It'll confirm that the ticket holder has the right to be on that train, as not all Interrail/EUrail passes have exactly the same validity. And more importantly, it records the fact that the ticket holder was travelling on that date. Since some of the options are only valid for X days in Y, it's important that the number of travel days is recorded.

This kind of foolishness doesn't surprise me nearly as much as I'd hope. It says a lot about the British rail industry that a successful, well-regarded scheme is being abandoned because it limits their ability to gouge prices.
 

Struner

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[…]
There are often comments in this forum about the bewildering range of ticket types, and the difficulty of training staff to recognise them all and their correct validity. But as soon as a step is taken to simplify this, there are howls of anguish!
A very small step...
 

30907

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This kind of foolishness doesn't surprise me nearly as much as I'd hope. It says a lot about the British rail industry that a successful, well-regarded scheme is being abandoned because it limits their ability to gouge prices.

1. RDG (publicly) have issues with Eurail vs Britrail. As a Britrail is valid at peak times and (3 days in a month) costs less than a Eurail Global pass, price-gouging is hardly relevant here, but the loss of revenue from people switching from Britrail passes may be.

2. As for UK residents misusing the start and finish days, there ought to be a requirement for the ticket to be validated abroad (as it invariably was back in the day). Or perhaps to be valid only with a ES or ferry ticket, like a London International CIV?

However, undercutting internal fares would surely be an issue in Germany too - a first class single from Hamburg to Munich is EUR258 which is almost as much as a 3day Interrail. Is this an issue for them?
 

cactustwirly

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1. RDG (publicly) have issues with Eurail vs Britrail. As a Britrail is valid at peak times and (3 days in a month) costs less than a Eurail Global pass, price-gouging is hardly relevant here, but the loss of revenue from people switching from Britrail passes may be.

2. As for UK residents misusing the start and finish days, there ought to be a requirement for the ticket to be validated abroad (as it invariably was back in the day). Or perhaps to be valid only with a ES or ferry ticket, like a London International CIV?

However, undercutting internal fares would surely be an issue in Germany too - a first class single from Hamburg to Munich is EUR258 which is almost as much as a 3day Interrail. Is this an issue for them?

Because people on Interrail passes wouldn't be paying €258 euros anyway, so DB wouldn't be loosing anything.
The main clientele of interrails, is Students travelling round Europe on gap years, summer breaks etc.
 

30907

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Because people on Interrail passes wouldn't be paying €258 euros anyway, so DB wouldn't be loosing anything.
The main clientele of interrails, is Students travelling round Europe on gap years, summer breaks etc.
Yes I know about students (I had an Interrail in 1972!) but there is an adult fare too and I would be very surprised if canny Germans hadn't cottoned on to the possibilities of using Interrail "creatively" as supposedly Brits have.
 

cactustwirly

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Yes I know about students (I had an Interrail in 1972!) but there is an adult fare too and I would be very surprised if canny Germans hadn't cottoned on to the possibilities of using Interrail "creatively" as supposedly Brits have.

But Germans can't use an Interrail in their own country.
 

30907

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The rules changed recently to allow one direct trip to a border/airport on the first day and one back on the last day. Germany is well supplied with both :)
 

RLBH

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The rules changed recently to allow one direct trip to a border/airport on the first day and one back on the last day. Germany is well supplied with both :)
I believe that's been allowed for a long time in most participating countries. The UK only decided to allow it in 2019, though.
 

Jan

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It'll confirm that the ticket holder has the right to be on that train, as not all Interrail/EUrail passes have exactly the same validity. And more importantly, it records the fact that the ticket holder was travelling on that date. Since some of the options are only valid for X days in Y, it's important that the number of travel days is recorded.
Any validity restrictions are already noted on the ticket itself - the diary is a completely generic form that looks the same for everybody until you start filling it in, so I still don't see how it helps "confirm that the ticket holder has the right to be on that train".
And likewise for the X days in Y-passes you already need to fill in the actual validity days on the ticket itself before travelling and it says clearly that the ticket is the authoritative source in that regard.

but while they encourage you to send it in, it isn't compulsory so I don't think it is used directly to apportion the revenue.
Well, once you've finished travelling and are no longer under the threat of "your ticket isn't valid if you don't fill in the travel diary", there no longer is a good way to force you sending in the travel diary anyway that wouldn't come across as rather unfriendly. Hence they only encourage you to do so and offer you a small reward if you actually manage to send it in...

And as for the revenue distribution, even if they're not apportioning each individual ticket according to its individual travel diary (if sent back), the revenue sharing is still likely to happen on the basis of how much people are travelling in each country on average, so they'd still want to have as many completed travel diaries as possible in order to increase the accuracy of those statistics.
 

blackfive460

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LNER on Twitter have said they're sticking with Interrail
I wonder...
They are actually saying that they are sticking with Eurail, the version that is available to travellers from outside Europe. Maybe they mean the whole scheme and maybe they will also allow first and last days travel to UK residents but I'd like to have some clarification before getting too excited.
Certainly a step in the right direction though.

Edit: Breaking news has rendered the above irrelevant.
I wonder if the 'storm' of negative reactions has concentrated some minds?
 

Roast Veg

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Oh thank goodness, I'm very relieved. I was hoping for this result, and it's happened much sooner than I expected.
 

ivanhoe

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Common sense at last. I bought my first Interrail in the year it came out,1972, (£27.50)and had a ball. Great days and also because of departures then from Lime Street at 1 minute past midnight to London,I was using mine pretty quickly(then 50% discount in UK and ferries)then free from Narvik to Athens . It is a great way in particular for young people who are not rail savvy , to travel.I still bore people now with my exploits but I’ll spare the forum from my travels in those wonderful months of September and October,1972.
 
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