That's a good point - and another good reason to always signal.
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SELF-DRIVING CARS
- Thread starter matacaster
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That's a good point - and another good reason to always signal.
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R
RailUK Forums
No, you’ve clearly got the wrong end of the stick.
You’re not just looking to see if you need to indicate, it’s simply to try and avoid the habit of just indicating and moving regardless.
Yes, there’s a chance of missing something, but at 2am on the M62 it’s unlikely.
To be honest considering I am qualified to drive and teach people to drive the longest and heaviest vehicle allowed on British roads (in addition to an average of 20,000 car miles a year) I suspect I’m pretty good at being aware of what is around and behind me!
I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Of course you need to be aware of what is around you, and the more aware you are the safer driver you are likely to be. Of course just signalling and moving is unsafe. That's not the point.
The point is why would you not signal, when it costs nothing, and not doing so introduces a risk (however small) that you cause an accident because you have made a mistake or missed something.
DerekC
Established Member
I have to say I don't see the logic of not signalling, but deciding when to signal and not just doing it without thinking is important.
Getting back to the thread topic, do autonomous cars read turn signals on other cars? Once all cars are autonomous (or, more likely, there are roads where only autonomous cars are allowed) will they need to signal each other and how will they do it? 5G is supposed to allow for high capacity, low latency car to car communication so I guess that an autonomous car wanting to change lanes (for example into the inside lane when getting near an exit it wants to take) could issue a message to cars in the adjacent lane asking them to make a gap. Thinking about it, that might be difficult if there is a long, linked convoy of cars in the inside lane travelling at their minimum safety distance. There might need to be gaps deliberately left every ten cars or so. Or will the long convoys of cars going furthest be in the outside lane, with shorter ones in the inside lanes. How does this get decided? And what should the speed limit be? Would it be different for different lanes? Would it be variable depending on weather or density of traffic? Are we actually talking about an intelligent highway as well as autonomous cars?
Getting back to the thread topic, do autonomous cars read turn signals on other cars? Once all cars are autonomous (or, more likely, there are roads where only autonomous cars are allowed) will they need to signal each other and how will they do it? 5G is supposed to allow for high capacity, low latency car to car communication so I guess that an autonomous car wanting to change lanes (for example into the inside lane when getting near an exit it wants to take) could issue a message to cars in the adjacent lane asking them to make a gap. Thinking about it, that might be difficult if there is a long, linked convoy of cars in the inside lane travelling at their minimum safety distance. There might need to be gaps deliberately left every ten cars or so. Or will the long convoys of cars going furthest be in the outside lane, with shorter ones in the inside lanes. How does this get decided? And what should the speed limit be? Would it be different for different lanes? Would it be variable depending on weather or density of traffic? Are we actually talking about an intelligent highway as well as autonomous cars?
Oh god. Don’t ever tell yourself you’re a good driver @Strat-tastic.I like to think that I am still switched on to what's going on around me; my signals are to show my intentions not what's going to happen come what may.
And I time my roundabouts to perfection!
In my most humble opinion of course
The last time I did that was 25 years ago, and 53 seconds later I was in a Volkswagen Passat estate skiing along a B road upside down on the roof bars (and you wouldn’t believe how noisy that was)...
We’re all only one momentary lapse in concentration away from being a very interesting “Idiot Drivers” clip on YouTube I reckon.
Good lord.
The point being is it makes you more attentive. Not less. I’m not sure how many times you want to ask the same question and receive the same answer?!
As I’ve said, it’s unlikely that you’re not going to indicate at 1700 on a weekday, because there’s always going to be somebody near you. But, at 2am coming home from a late shift, when I know for sure (firstly because I’ve been keeping tabs on what’s around me, secondly because I’ve still had a look and thirdly because you can guarantee that the motorway will be pretty empty) there is nothing behind me I’m not going to bother.
And, like I said earlier, I’ll keep doing it the way my instructor taught me, the way the IAM and the Police teach it and the way I’ve been doing it over the last 120,000 miles before I listen to a stranger on the internet.
I recommend a read of Roadcraft for everyone but pretty much gave up on the IAM when my local group had meetings involving alcohol, and members who should know better counted their drinks or assumed they'd be fine for the short drive home despite having clearly had too many.
Maybe they believed advanced motorists can drive better when under the influence?! Either way, I now look at the IAM in a totally different light.
Maybe they believed advanced motorists can drive better when under the influence?! Either way, I now look at the IAM in a totally different light.
DerekC
Established Member
If you want to have a thread in which you argue about each others driving ability, why don't you start one.
Strat-tastic
Established Member
Far from it Mr. Cowley. I too have done some stupid things down the years and wouldn't put it past me to do so again
That's why I take a keen interest in good driving tips and trying to improve. 
reddragon
Established Member
I can down 2 bottles of vodka and be sure my car will emergency brake rather than run over a pedestrian on the short drive home and follow the white lines home
Good lord.
The point being is it makes you more attentive. Not less. I’m not sure how many times you want to ask the same question and receive the same answer?!
As I’ve said, it’s unlikely that you’re not going to indicate at 1700 on a weekday, because there’s always going to be somebody near you. But, at 2am coming home from a late shift, when I know for sure (firstly because I’ve been keeping tabs on what’s around me, secondly because I’ve still had a look and thirdly because you can guarantee that the motorway will be pretty empty) there is nothing behind me I’m not going to bother.
And, like I said earlier, I’ll keep doing it the way my instructor taught me, the way the IAM and the Police teach it and the way I’ve been doing it over the last 120,000 miles before I listen to a stranger on the internet.
But in the end, logic says you are wrong. You can never know for sure that you have seen everything. In your example at 2am in the morning, are you are assuming not only that you have seen everything and never make a mistake, but also that everything is properly lit so you can it, and that you have perfect visibility around your vehicle.
I cannot understand your argument that sometimes not signalling makes you more attentive. If you need to think about signalling in order to stay attentive, then do that. But then signal anyway, in case you have made a mistake - which we all do.
underbank
Established Member
I can't understand your logic there. If you are going to indicate anyway, you lose the thought process of thinking whether you need to or not, so you're back to risking being on auto-pilot and not thinking/being attentive at all.
underbank
Established Member
Any organisation is always going to be made up of random individuals. You are probably right to give that group a swerve - it's only as good as the people involved. The group I used to be with was the absolute opposite - we used to avoid using local pubs etc and would "hire" function rooms/meeting rooms in local hotels where tea, coffee and biscuits were provided for public/members meetings. Of course, some people would buy alcoholic drinks from the bar and bring them into our room, but it was a minority. The thing is that local groups are independent so it's all down to who their members are, and who is running them. The president of our group was the town's police superintendent and committee meetings were held in the police station training room so no scope for alcohol there either!
Surely thinking whether to indicate is not the only thing keeping you attentive? Signalling happens when you are about to take an action - changing lanes, turning, etc. You have to be attentive to do those things.
I’m not sure how many times I need to say it. Of course it’s not the only thing, but it does help.
And experience tells me a lot of people could do with doing the same!
Frankly I’m fed up of going round in circles with you now. This will be my last post on the subject.
And experience tells me a lot of people could do with doing the same!
Frankly I’m fed up of going round in circles with you now. This will be my last post on the subject.
Might I suggest that if anyone wants to discuss how amazing they are at driving or otherwise please start a new thread. This thread is about self-driving cars not whether or not people are good drivers.
Strat-tastic
Established Member
I'd be a better driver in a self-driving car 
Ok let's ask another question, more relevant to this thread. Should self driving cars always indicate? Or only indicate when they "think" someone else will benefit?
I propose that they should always indicate.
DerekC
Established Member
I think they would be designed that way - that eliminates one source of error (a car decides not to indicate when it should have). Related questions are - will autonomous cars read indications from other cars? If so should they assume that another car will always indicate correctly? (They might want to know whether the other car is under autonomous control or not).
NSEFAN
Established Member
Driving standards set for humans are too low. I was nearly run over by a chap in a 4x4, who decided that red lights don't apply to big boy vehicles.
So roll on self-driving cars. I for one welcome our robotic overlords.
So roll on self-driving cars. I for one welcome our robotic overlords.
I can see what you mean now. I hate alarms going off frequently. A few years ago I had a hire car which had sensors on the front bumper as well as the rear. Some of the streets were quite narrow so it would randomly start beeping at me when I got to a junction. It also had rubbish brakes but I didn't appreciate how bad they were until I got back into my own car at Bristol Airport.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I couldn’t agree more. I’m aghast that advanced driving principles support not giving warnings to your manoeuvres just because you haven’t seen anyone to warn!
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