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Rail vulnerability

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matacaster

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Bearing in mind that unintended signalling faults in particular seem to paralyse large areas now with major control centres, what would happen if terrorists or other countries actually tried to deliberately sabotage our rail system?
 
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Clip

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They would probably fall down quite badly but I would assume that NR have thought about this and would at least have the signalling go to another place where they could manage it - and only if it meant fewer trains.
But you would have to ask yourself why they would target such things when the loss of the rail network would only affect people and freight from moving which apart from the freight if perishables, wouldnt be a total thing... Terrorists generally go for a mass killing of people not a crippling of infrastructre
 
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thenorthern

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I would happen attempts to cyber-attack railway signalling and other computer systems happen on a daily basis its just working to stop attacks succeeding such as by using up to date security and not allowing staff to bring in personal USB sticks.

The National Grid control centre is under constant cyber attack but its just a case of making sure the attacks don't succeed.
 
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Clip

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thenorthern said:
I would happen attempts to cyber-attack railway signalling and other computer systems happen on a daily basis its just working to stop attacks succeeding such as by using up to date security and not allowing staff to bring in personal USB sticks.

The National Grid control centre is under constant cyber attack but its just a case of making sure the attacks don't succeed.
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The national grid is a different beast to the railway though and it would paralyse the country whereas not running many trains wouldn't for a while
 
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nickswift99

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Anyone truly knowledgeable about the controls in the system would not be commenting on a public forum, so although it's a good question, you probably won't get anything more than a very cursory answer here.
 
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thenorthern

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I know the site in Rugby has planning for all kind of disasters for example its got high fencing around it with security guards to stop trespassers, its got a large uninterruptible power supply with backup generator which costs a lot to run but necessary in the event of a power-cut and the building is blast proof. Given the security in place I would think cyber security has also been taken into account.

The railway network like other important networks such as the telephone, road, electricity and media transmitter network has a lot of security in place to prevent damage by those who want to do it harm.
 
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Roast Veg

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Rugby, of course, has that security in no small part due to the DIRFT nearby.
 
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thenorthern

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Clip said:
The national grid is a different beast to the railway though and it would paralyse the country whereas not running many trains wouldn't for a while
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True although if the rail network was shut down for any length of time in an unplanned emergency it would cause massive chaos across the country and would be a major safety risk.
 
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edwin_m

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A fairly minor accident on a motorway at a busy time can jam it up very quickly and not long afterwards all the diversionary routes will similarly be jammed so very little will move over a wide area. Something like that would be far more disruptive than threatening railways, and probably easier to do.
 
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GreatAuk

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While railway control centres might well be very secure and robust, the majority of the railway is not (and given its sheer size, probably can't be). As evidenced by frequent trespass, graffiti, cable theft, etc, it's not hard for people to cause mischief if they want to.

I think the most likely result would be massive operational disruption if there was a well planned campaign to cut s&t cables, damage lineside equipment etc on a particular route. Could probably jam Radio signals fairly easily too... That doesn't feel very terroristy though... Maybe the most obvious thing I could think of is if they managed to override or physically immitate/replace a signal, or covertly install some kind of derailing device somewhere risky. That would actually cause deaths. I think they'd need insider knowledge to actually make it all happen though...
 
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GreatAuk said:
While railway control centres might well be very secure and robust, the majority of the railway is not (and given its sheer size, probably can't be). As evidenced by frequent trespass, graffiti, cable theft, etc, it's not hard for people to cause mischief if they want to.

I think the most likely result would be massive operational disruption if there was a well planned campaign to cut s&t cables, damage lineside equipment etc on a particular route. Could probably jam Radio signals fairly easily too... That doesn't feel very terroristy though... Maybe the most obvious thing I could think of is if they managed to override or physically immitate/replace a signal, or covertly install some kind of derailing device somewhere risky. That would actually cause deaths. I think they'd need insider knowledge to actually make it all happen though...
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Agreed, if I wanted to play saboteur I wouldn't go the cyber route.
 
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nickswift99 said:
Anyone truly knowledgeable about the controls in the system would not be commenting on a public forum, so although it's a good question, you probably won't get anything more than a very cursory answer here.
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The railway is probably the easiest thing to disrupt. It would take very little planning and almost no effort whatsoever.
 
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Clip

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thenorthern said:
True although if the rail network was shut down for any length of time in an unplanned emergency it would cause massive chaos across the country and would be a major safety risk.
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The only real safety risk i could think of would be perishables on freight that would not be able to get through - what other safety risk am I missing?
 
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camflyer

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edwin_m said:
A fairly minor accident on a motorway at a busy time can jam it up very quickly and not long afterwards all the diversionary routes will similarly be jammed so very little will move over a wide area. Something like that would be far more disruptive than threatening railways, and probably easier to do.
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An easy way to bring the country to a standstill would be to get a few HGVs and simultaneously crash them on the major motorway junctions. It wouldn't take much more effort to block the major rail lines.

Or an easier way would be to wait for it to snow.
 
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thenorthern

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Clip said:
The only real safety risk i could think of would be perishables on freight that would not be able to get through - what other safety risk am I missing?
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Many things for example if there is a power cut on the tube its not the easiest thing to evacuate a train underground, with track circuits and signaling not working its not the easiest thing to coordinate the network, there are fail-safe systems in place but its not always that easy.
 
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kaiser62

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I work in cyber security. All I would say on a public forum is that you would need quite detailed knowledge of the 'attack surface' before planning something. This is not a Windows XP Pc, so much of the malware that's out there would not work.
A half decent attacker (some of whom are state sponsored) could cause a lot of disruption merely by interfering with normal operation but they very unlikely to be able to alter things like interlocking and cause a crash.
It is not responsible to go into further detail, so I'll leave it there.
 
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Clip

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thenorthern said:
Many things for example if there is a power cut on the tube its not the easiest thing to evacuate a train underground, with track circuits and signaling not working its not the easiest thing to coordinate the network, there are fail-safe systems in place but its not always that easy.
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But thats localised in a big city - your post gave the impression of a whole network shutdown would be a risk when clearly - given the terrorists actions of over a decade agao - only last a few days
 
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thenorthern

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Clip said:
But thats localised in a big city - your post gave the impression of a whole network shutdown would be a risk when clearly - given the terrorists actions of over a decade agao - only last a few days
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Its still a safety risk though thats what you asked.
 
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Clip

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thenorthern said:
Its still a safety risk though thats what you asked.
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Well if you want to move the goalposts from ' if the rail network' to a small portion of it then yeah sure - they did well evacuating the passengers after the bombings so maybe its not as drastic as you think?
 
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