Passed through Tottenham Hale today and the rails on the third line were shiny. Looking on RTTs there appears to have been some services operating over it http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O29910/2019/08/09/advanced for one? So can we assume training has started?
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(Partial) West Anglia route additional third track and new station at Meridian Water
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I see this Treasury Announcement 17 Aug 2019 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/600-million-boost-for-housing
includes "£156 million for the ‘Meridian Water’ bid from Enfield to deliver rail works, road infrastructure, land remediation, flood alleviation and utilities to unlock up to 10k homes"
From looking on Enfield Council website it looks like the rail works https://governance.enfield.gov.uk/documents/s73011/20190204 OSC Meridian Water final.pdf
will include doubling the new siding from Tott Hale to Meridian Water, with a new 4th platform at Meridan Water. The Enfield briefing note is from 2 Feb 2019 and says earliest time for 4tph is Dec 2019!!
"2.3 A full 4tph service will be enabled by the HIF rail infrastructure works with the earliest operation of a full 4tph service in December 2019.
3.5. The rail improvement works will provide an additional (4th) track from just north of Tottenham Hale to the new Meridian Water station, together with the construction of the 4th platform at Meridian Water station and the associated signalling and electrification works. These improvement works could facilitate a train service of up to 6-8 trains per hour at the new Meridian Water station."
includes "£156 million for the ‘Meridian Water’ bid from Enfield to deliver rail works, road infrastructure, land remediation, flood alleviation and utilities to unlock up to 10k homes"
From looking on Enfield Council website it looks like the rail works https://governance.enfield.gov.uk/documents/s73011/20190204 OSC Meridian Water final.pdf
will include doubling the new siding from Tott Hale to Meridian Water, with a new 4th platform at Meridan Water. The Enfield briefing note is from 2 Feb 2019 and says earliest time for 4tph is Dec 2019!!
"2.3 A full 4tph service will be enabled by the HIF rail infrastructure works with the earliest operation of a full 4tph service in December 2019.
3.5. The rail improvement works will provide an additional (4th) track from just north of Tottenham Hale to the new Meridian Water station, together with the construction of the 4th platform at Meridian Water station and the associated signalling and electrification works. These improvement works could facilitate a train service of up to 6-8 trains per hour at the new Meridian Water station."
And Hell freezing over first before any of those dates.
DfT didn't specify enough stock for 4tph in the Anglia tender (hence the judicial review which Enfield lost) hence where is the rolling stock coming from if Anglia don't order more / retain some existing stock.
Well no one really knows what is happening on GA. Various deadlines for additional services (eg extra TPH to Hert East and Southend Vic due May 19), infrastructure enhancements (eg Hert East line and Enfield Lock platform extensions due Oct 18), PRM mods (27x317s due Oct 18) have been and gone with nothing happening, and no proposed timetables for the timetable recast due May 20 but now not expected until Dec 20 have ever been published. Some timetable enhancements have already been abandoned UFN, eg Ipswich to Peterborough hourly undeliverable until multiple level crossings upgraded. Thats 2/3 bimodes spare forever. And suspicion is that other promised enhancements will be undeliverable, leaving more spare units. And it is only 2 extra diagrams, 4 units max. So I dont think lack of units will be the problem, far more likely lack of action by Network Rail.
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How about extending ARL services from Stratford to Meridian Water instead? Wasn't there a suggestion that they might be looking for more new trains? I also thought there was something elsewhere on this board that TfL wanted 10tph on the NLL - if so I'd love to know how a two platform Stratford station would cope.
Different platforms at Stratford for NLL (1+2 ) and Meridian Water (12)
Class 170101
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Correct. But 11 and 12 still accessible respectively to or from NLL subject to freight not fouling Stratford Central Jn. Extending some of the ARL services to Meridian Water would get round the problem of the limitations of only two platforms (1 and 2) being used for NLL services at Stratford
I will get told off for not starting a new thread in speculative ideas, but what about move Hertford East to TfL and run 4 TPH Hertford East to Meridian Water and vice versa in a loop via Channelsea Junction and platform 12 Stratford.
That way you deliver 4 TPH to Meridian Water and Hertford East, you dont block Stratford platform 11/12 with reversing services all the time and you can use 4/8car 710s (yes appreciate they would need to order some more and reduce 720 order, or keep perhaps keep 379s?) and avoid the need to extend Hertford East, Ware, St Margarets platforms to accommodate 10car 720s, and you also avoid having to SDO on 10car 720s at Lea Bridge/Totthale platform 2/Northumberland Park and Meridian Water (if in fact SDO is going to be permitted at those stations - dont think we know for sure if 10car 720s are going to be permitted to Meridian Water, they certaintly cannot go to Hert East so doing away with the need to expensive / disruptive infrastructure works at Hert East, Ware and St Margarets would be welcome).
It would mean Hert East loses LivSt services which would not go down well, but if coupled with increase in frequency that may compensate for the need to change at TottHale.
Anyway we will see what happens, but it would not surprise me if Meridian Water / Stratford does become a TfL service. I think they were not interested previously as they want to operate services at a minimum of 4TPH. Of course they do operate the parallel services via Seven Sisters. I am sure GA would be pleased to see back of the service - it is only a few miles end to end and wholly in London and more suited to 710 type stock with lots of standing space and lots of doors rather than 720 high density 2+3 seating.
That way you deliver 4 TPH to Meridian Water and Hertford East, you dont block Stratford platform 11/12 with reversing services all the time and you can use 4/8car 710s (yes appreciate they would need to order some more and reduce 720 order, or keep perhaps keep 379s?) and avoid the need to extend Hertford East, Ware, St Margarets platforms to accommodate 10car 720s, and you also avoid having to SDO on 10car 720s at Lea Bridge/Totthale platform 2/Northumberland Park and Meridian Water (if in fact SDO is going to be permitted at those stations - dont think we know for sure if 10car 720s are going to be permitted to Meridian Water, they certaintly cannot go to Hert East so doing away with the need to expensive / disruptive infrastructure works at Hert East, Ware and St Margarets would be welcome).
It would mean Hert East loses LivSt services which would not go down well, but if coupled with increase in frequency that may compensate for the need to change at TottHale.
Anyway we will see what happens, but it would not surprise me if Meridian Water / Stratford does become a TfL service. I think they were not interested previously as they want to operate services at a minimum of 4TPH. Of course they do operate the parallel services via Seven Sisters. I am sure GA would be pleased to see back of the service - it is only a few miles end to end and wholly in London and more suited to 710 type stock with lots of standing space and lots of doors rather than 720 high density 2+3 seating.
The extra 2tph is achieved with a unit shuttling between Meridian Water and Tottenham Hale, no need to worry about Stratford!
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Can't see that going down well with ASLEF / RMT as it would be considered repetitive working. Not to mention where are the train crew and PNB facilities? Lots of drivers passing to / from this route.
sjoh
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My understanding is that the service will be part of the diagrams for units on the Stortford services. I.e. Stratford-Stortford-Stratford-Meridian Water etc.
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That's more sensible but not what the help said above my previous post
yes per upthread that is the case for the new 2TPH starting 9 September 2019. But per govt announcement last week allocating money to Enfield council to support additional housing development around Meridian Water, the service is to be enhanced to 4TPH at some future date. Seems however that the extra new 2TPH will only run Meridian Water to TottHale. We will see how this all plays out in the fullness of time. It could be operated as part of the GA franchise, or it could be moved to TfL, which in my view would be a happier home for it medium term, not least because 10car 720s will be huge overkill and possibly not fit on the new siding, but 5car 720s will provide too little capacity esp on the Stratford - Brox leg of the diagrams
Railwaysceptic
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In that case I'll go to Tottenham Hale on Monday and watch the trains go by. It makes sense that the new service would start on Monday as that's when most people have returned from holiday and children are about to return to school.
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Would not be defined as repetitive working except Sundays possibly. The trains do Bishops Stortford - Stratford - Meridian Water - Stratford - Bishops Stortford generally speaking.
Don't the driver/guard take turns to vary it up a bit?
Mikey C
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I would suggest that the timetabled services commence on Monday as Monday is the start of Period H, in the railway callander. It's generally easier, I think, to make diagram / wholesale timetable amendments coincide with the period start dates.
Terry Tait
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Is there a valid reason for the Hertford East services not stopping at Meridian Water?
It would be so handy for IKEA and the big Tesco, the 192 bus there is struggling with increasing demand.
It would be so handy for IKEA and the big Tesco, the 192 bus there is struggling with increasing demand.
No space in the timetable to fit an extra call in between the Stansted Expresses...unless an existing call elsewhere (e.g. Ponders End) were sacrificed.
306024
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Anglia hasn’t traditionally taken much notice of timetable periods, unlike other parts of the network, so that may (or may not) just be coincidence.
Can confirm the third track is up and running this morning; just overtook the 0807-ish Meridian Water to Stratford service between Meridian Water and Northumberland Park.
Looked quite empty from MW, but quite a few waiting to board at Northumberland Park.
Looked quite empty from MW, but quite a few waiting to board at Northumberland Park.
Yes worked nicely this AM - the additional services connect nicely out of the fast Cambridge - LivSt peak services and shave 10 min plus off Camb/Whittlesford/Audley End/Stortford to Canary Wharf commutes, which are inconvenient currently as until Crossrail comes you have to change twice.
The repetitive working comment above relates not to the service that starts today, which is integrated with the Stortford (all day)/Hert East (peak) to Stratford service, but to the suggested additional service to be provided as part of a recent government housing development finance award to Enfield council to support house building around Meridan Water. A reliable poster said that 4TPH service at Meridian Water would be provided by a shuttle TottHale to Meridian Water only. This will need a passing loop somewhere on the new siding from Lea Bridge to Meridian Water.
It is all a bit of a nonsense. The original proposal was 4 track to Brimsdown with a link to the West Anglia Main Line at Brimsdown. It was repeatedly de-scoped to save money until it ended up as a siding to Meridian Water only. There is no access to the additional track from the north, nor from the additional track to the WAML. Which means peak time only service from the north, so no off peak service from Brox/Cheshunt/Waltham Cross/Brimsdown/Ponders End to Meridian Water forever (or until crossrail2 anyway). If there was a link from the north the half hourly Stortford to Stratford could provide that service and there would be no need for an additional unit shuttling a mile and a half and back every half hour. It would also mean that Meridian Water would have 4TPH all day to Stratford. Shuttle to Tott Hale better than nothing, and provides access to Victoria line, but Stratford a major destination in its own right and provides loads more one change journey opportunities.
As an aside I note as well as not advertising the new Meridian Water service at all, GA have today with no notice removed 2 Waltham Cross stops, 1 Enfield Lock stop and 3 Brimsdown stops from the peak time Brox-LivSt services. Makes sense as those Brox starters are poor timekeepers, most dwell times only 30 secs which is obviously not enough.
I may come back to the platform length issue. I expect we will find many services go from 8x317 to 5x720. The seating capacity is about the same. The problem of course is that 8x317=16 doors, 5x720=10 doors so the dwell time issue will become much worse.
The repetitive working comment above relates not to the service that starts today, which is integrated with the Stortford (all day)/Hert East (peak) to Stratford service, but to the suggested additional service to be provided as part of a recent government housing development finance award to Enfield council to support house building around Meridan Water. A reliable poster said that 4TPH service at Meridian Water would be provided by a shuttle TottHale to Meridian Water only. This will need a passing loop somewhere on the new siding from Lea Bridge to Meridian Water.
It is all a bit of a nonsense. The original proposal was 4 track to Brimsdown with a link to the West Anglia Main Line at Brimsdown. It was repeatedly de-scoped to save money until it ended up as a siding to Meridian Water only. There is no access to the additional track from the north, nor from the additional track to the WAML. Which means peak time only service from the north, so no off peak service from Brox/Cheshunt/Waltham Cross/Brimsdown/Ponders End to Meridian Water forever (or until crossrail2 anyway). If there was a link from the north the half hourly Stortford to Stratford could provide that service and there would be no need for an additional unit shuttling a mile and a half and back every half hour. It would also mean that Meridian Water would have 4TPH all day to Stratford. Shuttle to Tott Hale better than nothing, and provides access to Victoria line, but Stratford a major destination in its own right and provides loads more one change journey opportunities.
As an aside I note as well as not advertising the new Meridian Water service at all, GA have today with no notice removed 2 Waltham Cross stops, 1 Enfield Lock stop and 3 Brimsdown stops from the peak time Brox-LivSt services. Makes sense as those Brox starters are poor timekeepers, most dwell times only 30 secs which is obviously not enough.
I may come back to the platform length issue. I expect we will find many services go from 8x317 to 5x720. The seating capacity is about the same. The problem of course is that 8x317=16 doors, 5x720=10 doors so the dwell time issue will become much worse.
And far less standing room...
Given the required output is to enable a new additional half-hourly service between MW and Stratford (giving 4tph between Stratford and Tottenham Hale), what you describe is unnecessary gold-plating.
Oh come on. We will end up with 4TPH Meridian Water to TottHale and 4TPH TottHale to Stratford but not 4TPH Meridian Water to Stratford. With the Lea Valley stopper running parallel to the Meridian Water to TottHale shuttle resulting in need for one extra unit diagram, no journey opportunities from north to Meridian Water and the Lea Valley unnecessarily clogged up with stopper delaying StanExp and Camb services all day forever.
Presumably you would call building the new platform face at TottHale to accommodate 10x720 gold plating? It has in fact been built for 8x20m stock, a formation that will not run at all on GA within a year or so. I suppose must have saved a few tens of thousands on the £170m budget, for which the rail industry should be heartily congratulated.
We will have to see what happens when GA finally get round to publishing its proposed recast of WA. Due May 2020 under Franchise Agreement, and various service enhancements and speeding up specified. But delayed until Dec 2020 earliest, and who knows what will actually be delivered and when.
Skimpot flyer
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Can anyone enlighten me as to the station code for Meridian Water? I tried looking for live trains from Stratford (SRA) on the National Rail Enquiries app but typing Meri... brings up ‘No Search Results’ ??
If I input SRA and don’t specify a destination, the 15:16 to Median Water IS shown !!
If I input SRA and don’t specify a destination, the 15:16 to Median Water IS shown !!
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