Formations of TPE loco hauled services before 'Sprinterisation'

MML · 27 Jul 2019

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...g-stock-progress.143579/page-137#post-4126527
I'm sure when the TPE was using Class 45 and Class 47 traction, the trains were at least 6 coaches long.

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JonathanH · 28 Jul 2019

MML said:
when the TPE was using Class 45 and Class 47 traction

...the carriages were 20 metres long, they included a half brake coach and didn't run as frequently as TPE services do now.

Five coach in this video

I note that a very limited number of TPE services run as 6-car at the moment.

GrimShady · 28 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
...the carriages were 20 metres long, they included a half brake coach and didn't run as frequently as TPE services do now.

Five coach in this video

I note that a very limited number of TPE services run as 6-car at the moment.

Interesting assembly of 47s, did this route feature some 47s in Regional Railways branding?

EE Andy b1 · 28 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
...the carriages were 20 metres long, they included a half brake coach and didn't run as frequently as TPE services do now.

Five coach in this video

I note that a very limited number of TPE services run as 6-car at the moment.

That brought all the memories back.

I actually passed out for driving on these services, with a Class 45 Liverpool - Huddersfield (gone by this date) and a Class 47 back to Manchester Victoria where the train was terminated, March 88, normally 5 coaches.

JonathanH · 28 Jul 2019

GrimShady said:
Interesting assembly of 47s, did this route feature some 47s in Regional Railways branding?

There were never any 47s in Regional Railways branding - 47475 was the only one painted in a 'Provincial' paint scheme.

http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_liveries.php?s_liv=76

The Regional Railways paint scheme came to 31/4 and 37/4s after it was known that 47s had a very short future on the Trans Pennine route.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/regional-railways-class-31-and-class-37.95293/#post-1680754

Probably a bit off topic.

jonhewes · 28 Jul 2019

JonathanH said:
...the carriages were 20 metres long, they included a half brake coach and didn't run as frequently as TPE services do now.

Five coach in this video

I note that a very limited number of TPE services run as 6-car at the moment.

I believe that in months leading up to sprinterisation, the services were "dumbed down" a little in order to manage public perception. From what I've read this included removing first class and running shorter trains.

Apologies in advance if what I've posted is factually incorrect

sjpowermac · 28 Jul 2019

jonhewes said:
I believe that in months leading up to sprinterisation, the services were "dumbed down" a little in order to manage public perception. From what I've read this included removing first class and running shorter trains.

Apologies in advance if what I've posted is factually incorrect

You are absolutely correct, the article here has the details:

https://www.railexpress.co.uk/953/trans-pennine-loco-hauled-remembered/

Regarding comments made by others about capacity, back in the 1980s the service was:

Liverpool to Newcastle one hour.
Liverpool/North Wales to Scarborough the other.

It’s worth remembering too that four car Class 150/2 units operated the Scarborough trains from 1987 onwards.

randyrippley · 28 Jul 2019

I used the transpennine services six or seven times in the mid '80s (Warrington BQ - Holyhead) and each time it was a class 40 + at least eight

Monkeyhead · 28 Jul 2019

Ah, them were the days :'(

Shaw S Hunter · 30 Jul 2019

sjpowermac said:
It’s worth remembering too that four car Class 150/2 units operated the Scarborough trains from 1987 onwards.

Surprising as it may seem now sometimes these were worked with six-car 150/2 formations.

randyrippley said:
I used the transpennine services six or seven times in the mid '80s (Warrington BQ - Holyhead) and each time it was a class 40 + at least eight

Given that the 40s were all withdrawn in January 1985 (apart from the subsequent revival of D200/40122 and the four Crewe remodelling 97s) I suspect your memory may be slightly off. As I recall it such Holyhead services as ever ran through to Yorkshire were far more likely to be 45-hauled. 40s on Warrington-Holyhead runs would have been Man Vic starters rather than genuine trans-Pennine services. The exception might have been a summer Saturday York-Llandudno service: could it be that service that you made repeated use of?

randyrippley · 30 Jul 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
Surprising as it may seem now sometimes these were worked with six-car 150/2 formations.

Given that the 40s were all withdrawn in January 1985 (apart from the subsequent revival of D200/40122 and the four Crewe remodelling 97s) I suspect your memory may be slightly off. As I recall it such Holyhead services as ever ran through to Yorkshire were far more likely to be 45-hauled. 40s on Warrington-Holyhead runs would have been Man Vic starters rather than genuine trans-Pennine services. The exception might have been a summer Saturday York-Llandudno service: could it be that service that you made repeated use of?

I was going to Ireland each time so definitely a Holyhead service

Bevan Price · 1 Aug 2019

sjpowermac said:
You are absolutely correct, the article here has the details:

https://www.railexpress.co.uk/953/trans-pennine-loco-hauled-remembered/

Regarding comments made by others about capacity, back in the 1980s the service was:

Liverpool to Newcastle one hour.
Liverpool/North Wales to Scarborough the other.

It’s worth remembering too that four car Class 150/2 units operated the Scarborough trains from 1987 onwards.

There were also some Hull - North Wales services worked by Class 150 -- and Class 142 was by no means unknown - I once saw a 142 at Manchester Victoria on a Hull - Holyhead service..

The length of loco hauled trains decreased steadily over the years. Usually 9 or 10 coaches at the start of diesel operation of Liverpool - Newcastle services in the early 1960s, down to 5 (or even 4) coaches before Sprinters took over completely.

MDB1images · 5 Aug 2019

Remember the start of Class 150/2's on Pennines and as mentioned up thread a lot of these out the box ran as 6 cars(x3 Class 150/2 with grey front ends).
Don't remember the loco hauled being shortened upto that point.
Did that happen when they started going via Piccadilly to Liverpool?

alistairlees · 5 Aug 2019

I don't recall loco-hauled North Trans-Pennine ever being 4 or 5 coaches at all. South Trans-Pennine (Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield and beyond) were though.

North TP were generally six, seven or eight coaches through the mid and late 1980s. The length depended on the season and was probably also a bit random. The same coach sets circulated to all the extremities of the diagrams - Liverpool, Holyhead, Scarborough, Newcastle.

Shaw S Hunter · 5 Aug 2019

MDB1images said:
Remember the start of Class 150/2's on Pennines and as mentioned up thread a lot of these out the box ran as 6 cars(x3 Class 150/2 with grey front ends).
Don't remember the loco hauled being shortened upto that point.
Did that happen when they started going via Piccadilly to Liverpool?

alistairlees said:
I don't recall loco-hauled North Trans-Pennine ever being 4 or 5 coaches at all. South Trans-Pennine (Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield and beyond) were though.

North TP were generally six, seven or eight coaches through the mid and late 1980s. The length depended on the season and was probably also a bit random. The same coach sets circulated to all the extremities of the diagrams - Liverpool, Holyhead, Scarborough, Newcastle.

By the end of the loco-hauled era most trains were down to just 4 or 5 coaches and I do seem to recall that shortening started with the re-routing via Piccadilly. Could this have been because of relatively short platforms at Warrington Central (and maybe Widnes too)?

exile · 9 Aug 2019

That's not how I remember it. The sprinterisation coincided with the diversion of Liverpool-Leeds trains via Warrington. The last loco hauled trains through Warrington Central were the 5 coach Liverpool-Sheffield trains which I remember using in 1988. Hauled by class 31s I think.

Shaw S Hunter · 9 Aug 2019

exile said:
That's not how I remember it. The sprinterisation coincided with the diversion of Liverpool-Leeds trains via Warrington. The last loco hauled trains through Warrington Central were the 5 coach Liverpool-Sheffield trains which I remember using in 1988. Hauled by class 31s I think.

Sprinterisation was well under way before TP-North services were re-routed. But the 158s which eventually became standard traction on the route didn't come into service until after the re-routing. Although it led to many cynical comments there was a definite move towards shorter (4 carriage) trains on the route before Sprinters became the normal traction. The TP-South route was not considered to be as important a part of the trans-Pennine network as it is today so newer traction took longer to take over.

xotGD · 10 Aug 2019

I can't give exact dates but my last haulage record of a loco hauled transpennine service out of Man Vic was in September 1988. May 1989 was my first into Man Pic with a final loco hauled trip that way in January 1990.

KevinTurvey · 11 Aug 2019

From about 1984 to 1987, these services were randomly class 45 or 47 hauled with a mixture of Mk1 and mk2 coaches of varying length (average 6-7).

From 1987 when the Liverpool - Scarboroughs went over to class 150/2 the coaching stock was a bit more predictable with typically a Mk1 full brake, a mk2 corridor first at the Liverpool end, and five (sometimes four) mk 2 open seconds, mainly now in the new trans pennine livery. 47401 - 47444 and a few others providing the power.

It stayed this way until the 158's took over in 1991, although by now almost any spare 47 was pressed into service and defective were coaches removed from the sets, so they may well have been shorter.

robertclark125 · 13 Aug 2019

The article doesn't mention, AFAIK, another reason why the formations were shorter, prior to the 158s entering service. The 158s were to be running as four car sets, i.e. 2x158 units. So, the loco hauled sets were, gradually, reduced to in effect five vehicle trains, but in reality 4 and a half seated coaches. This was to get passengers used to the shorter formations.

Shaw S Hunter · 13 Aug 2019

robertclark125 said:
The article doesn't mention, AFAIK, another reason why the formations were shorter, prior to the 158s entering service. The 158s were to be running as four car sets, i.e. 2x158 units. So, the loco hauled sets were, gradually, reduced to in effect five vehicle trains, but in reality 4 and a half seated coaches. This was to get passengers used to the shorter formations.

Hence my use of the word "cynical" in post #17.

alistairlees · 13 Aug 2019

So far as I recall the first sprinters - 150/2s I think - were introduced in May 1986, on Liverpool - Scarborough services. They usually ran in six-car formations from what I remember.

The sprinters did (I think... memory is fading...):
07.03 Liverpool - Scarborough
10.53 Scarborough - Holyhead
17.03 Holyhead - York
(this diagram might have changed a bit when it went over to sprinters)

09.03 Liverpool - Scarborough
12.53 Scarborough - Bangor
19.20? Bangor - Manchester

I'm pretty sure they also started to turn up on the 12.03 Liverpool - Scarborough at some point, but that would normally have been stock off the 07.10 Newcastle - Liverpool... I will need to go and check!

The last loco-hauled Pennine from Scarborough was on a Sunday in May 1987. A class 45/1. After that class 45s were rare on Pennine turns.

Up until that point at least loco-hauled trains were usually 8 coaches, sometimes 7, and (very rarely) 6. I never saw anything shorter that I recall on a north trans-pennine train.

61653 HTAFC · 14 Aug 2019

Though when they were load 7 or 8 this usually included a full brake vehicle, often a half-brake too.

alistairlees · 14 Aug 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
Though when they were load 7 or 8 this usually included a full brake vehicle, often a half-brake too.

Indeed. The formation from the Liverpool end was full brake, mk2c(?) FK, a bunch of mk2 a/b/c TSO, with often the last coach of two a mk1 TSO. Though the second class stuff could get mixed up. A half brake in the middle was not common though.

D1537 · 15 Aug 2019

KevinTurvey said:
From 1987 when the Liverpool - Scarboroughs went over to class 150/2 the coaching stock was a bit more predictable with typically a Mk1 full brake, a mk2 corridor first at the Liverpool end, and five (sometimes four) mk 2 open seconds, mainly now in the new trans pennine livery. 47401 - 47444 and a few others providing the power.

The original Trans-Pennine batch were 47401/402/406/407/411/413/417/418/421/422/425; as the "Generators" (401-420) were withdrawn/moved to other pools, others were drafted in, notably 47423/424/434/443/444/448/452/475/487/488/503, though 487 was withdrawn early. Towards the end the TP trains were getting pretty much anything that was a 47/4 (or indeed a 47/7)

Formations of TPE loco hauled services before 'Sprinterisation'

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