Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

EE Andy b1 · 9 Aug 2019

AMD said:
Testing is planned to complete this month.

Why have they actually started testing proper yet? Great Central is no real test bed.

Wigan North Western to Stalybridge might be a good start for testing. How many miles on diesel? The electric side is proven, just added weight.

RailUK Forums

Killingworth · 10 Aug 2019

Just to recap, how many 769 units are Northern supposed to get? By when were they supposed to have them all? How many have they actually got? By when can we expect to see any or all of them delivered? Are units still being converted? How many drivers and crew been trained on them?

The sum total of the likely answers may suggest the possibility of a phased introduction into revenue earning service by December. Could it yet happen?

a_c_skinner · 10 Aug 2019

December, just, perhaps, assuming they actually work properly as of NOW. The thing that hurts me about this project is that bimode is so obviously a really good plan for a good deal of Northern if it can be made to work, even if it only really reduces diesel burn in cities without lots of miles on electric traction. With emphasis on "if it can be made to work". I do wonder if sacrificing a little bit of passenger space to have the engine above the sole bar would have been better if it is true that getting the two gensets to collaborate is/was part of the delay. (I know that brings other problems of weight distribution of course.)

Llama · 10 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
Just to recap, how many 769 units are Northern supposed to get? By when were they supposed to have them all? How many have they actually got? By when can we expect to see any or all of them delivered? Are units still being converted? How many drivers and crew been trained on them?

The sum total of the likely answers may suggest the possibility of a phased introduction into revenue earning service by December. Could it yet happen?

I can tell you that precisely zero train crew have been trained on 769s.

adrock1976 · 10 Aug 2019

Llama said:
I can tell you that precisely zero train crew have been trained on 769s.

For the drivers who already work the 319s in their original form, would this be a simple traction conversion course for the 769s?

Llama · 10 Aug 2019

Yes, fairly simple, although no course has been finalised yet. I imagine two days minimum to cover theory, static training and perhaps a bit of handling but I wouldn't be surprised if no handling is required. If a driver doesn't already sign 319s that two days will increase to two weeks plus a practical exam, but I imagine all drivers training 769s on Northern would already sign 319s. That wouldn't be the case on TfW or possibly GWR.

The 769 units will need track circuit actuators, a fire detection and extinguishing system for the engines, additional fault indications, system isolations, circuit breakers and overrides provided in the cab; modifications to the air system (especially braking and air suspension systems) and possibly more.

Greybeard33 · 10 Aug 2019

a_c_skinner said:
I do wonder if sacrificing a little bit of passenger space to have the engine above the sole bar would have been better if it is true that getting the two gensets to collaborate is/was part of the delay. (I know that brings other problems of weight distribution of course.)

Operating gensets in parallel is hardly rocket science! It has been routine in other industries for well over a hundred years, and even on rail vehicles the 80x have several gensets in parallel and the 230 has two per car. If this is really still an issue on the 769, it is just incompetent engineering, as it was to design the exhaust system such that it fouled the lower sector structure gauge.

If you are suggesting that the 769 should instead have been designed with a single, larger genset above the solebar, that would have greatly reduced the unit passenger capacity. And disruption caused by failure of the single engine in a freight loco is all too frequent as it is, without introducing more single engined trains (just as solo 153s are being phased out).

BurtonM · 10 Aug 2019

Will the 769 have cycle storage?

They will be most unwelcome at Stalybridge if not, between those and TPE's reservation policy.

js1000 · 10 Aug 2019

Could the DfT (i.e. government) just not procure 40 bi-mode vehicles and lease them on Direct Rail Services terms? Or not too dissimilar from what TFL/DfT have done in London for Crossrail with the Class 345s?

Afterall, this sorry episode (in Northernland anyway) has all been caused by the government reneging on their promise to electrify lines.

DC2001 · 10 Aug 2019

BurtonM said:
Will the 769 have cycle storage?

They will be most unwelcome at Stalybridge if not, between those and TPE's reservation policy.

The 319's have a most awkward shared bike/wheelchair section (not signed at all) next to the toilet so the area constantly stinks- I would hope that the 769's would have separate bike and wheelchair areas; I won't hold my breath.

a_c_skinner · 10 Aug 2019

Greybeard33 said:
and even on rail vehicles the 80x have several gensets in parallel and the 230 has two per car. If this is really still an issue on the 769, it is just incompetent engineering, as it was to design the exhaust system such that it fouled the lower sector structure gauge.

Harsh, but fair. Obvious too. Apologies.

AM9 · 10 Aug 2019

DC2001 said:
The 319's have a most awkward shared bike/wheelchair section (not signed at all) next to the toilet so the area constantly stinks- I would hope that the 769's would have separate bike and wheelchair areas; I won't hold my breath.

If it stinks that much, you might have to.

AMD · 10 Aug 2019

BurtonM said:
Will the 769 have cycle storage?

Nothing specific, the interior of the unit is not being modified from 319 set up.

BurtonM · 11 Aug 2019

Bad news from the perspective of a Stalybridge resident.
15x are hit and miss for cycle storage, the 142s are outgoing, and 319s have next to nothing.
I can't book on TPE as I can't hold myself to times.

a_c_skinner · 11 Aug 2019

The really bad news for Stalybridge and points east is the demise/deferral of electrification and trains that are too short. Of course some more 319s in traffic (as 769s) would help. Meanwhile a folding bike? We do need to get serious about public transport and fossil fuels.

_toommm_ · 11 Aug 2019

BurtonM said:
Bad news from the perspective of a Stalybridge resident.
15x are hit and miss for cycle storage, the 142s are outgoing, and 319s have next to nothing.
I can't book on TPE as I can't hold myself to times.

I thought you could book cycles up to 15 minutes before now on TPE?

DC2001 · 11 Aug 2019

AM9 said:
If it stinks that much, you might have to.

BurtonM said:
Bad news from the perspective of a Stalybridge resident.
15x are hit and miss for cycle storage, the 142s are outgoing, and 319s have next to nothing.
I can't book on TPE as I can't hold myself to times.

Don't Northern have something in their franchise agreement which requires facilities for the storage of at least 2 bikes on all trains?

I too will miss the 142s; you would be surprised how many people look longingly at a 142 at Piccadilly when waiting for the Blackpool train on a weekday evening - the 319's are actually incredibly noisy (the train not passengers!!) so I assume that the 769's will be similar. It isn't ideal but they do at least have 2 sides in the bike/wheelchair section; you can fit quite a few bikes on one side (awkwardly) and a couple of wheelchairs on the other side. Sometimes you do need to politely explain to people in the area that it isn't just for standing in (particularly when the rest of the carriage is empty!) but usually people are accommodating. So far I have only had to ask the guard to tell passengers who were in the way to move twice (signage is awful); the guards I have had are usually brilliant.

_toommm_ said:
I thought you could book cycles up to 15 minutes before now on TPE?

But this is subject to space and needs the passenger to have WhatsApp. Whilst this is better than before, personally I don't always carry my phone with me and don't have any mobile data to use WhatsApp without WiFi.

krus_aragon · 11 Aug 2019

DC2001 said:
But this is subject to space and needs the passenger to have WhatsApp. Whilst this is better than before, personally I don't always carry my phone with me and don't have any mobile data to use WhatsApp without WiFi.

Additionally, that infers that you need to accept WhatsApp's terms and conditions in order to make short-notice reservations with TPE.

That's a bit like being forced to use Twitter (and accept their T&Cs) to order to contact a customer services department. Not a good move for someone operating a franchised public service...

DC2001 · 11 Aug 2019

krus_aragon said:
Additionally, that infers that you need to accept WhatsApp's terms and conditions in order to make short-notice reservations with TPE.

That's a bit like being forced to use Twitter (and accept their T&Cs) to order to contact a customer services department. Not a good move for someone operating a franchised public service...

Their website does say that you can also call customer services to book a space but it would be much better if no booking was required and the bike section was available for all users until it is completely full- it is very rare for there to actually be no space for additional bikes as they hardly take up any extra space once one bike is on. Calling customer services doesn't necessarily get an instant response and still relies on the user having a phone.

Maybe only have reservations for passengers who wish to book in advance and allow as many users as space allows for further bikes.

Plethora · 11 Aug 2019

Clearly the TOC should clearly be spending more money on alternative means of communication with the 0.1% of bike riders who don't use WhatsApp... :rolleyes:

krus_aragon · 11 Aug 2019

Plethora said:
Clearly the TOC should clearly be spending more money on alternative means of communication with the 0.1% of bike riders who don't use WhatsApp...

Are there that many? I must be in good company. Either way, @DC2001 has clarified that they offer an alternative.

PHILIPE · 11 Aug 2019

Can we get back on thread, please, otherwise we will have to cycle from A to B if 769s don't show up.

390112A · 11 Aug 2019

Killingworth said:
Just to recap, how many 769 units are Northern supposed to get? By when were they supposed to have them all? How many have they actually got? By when can we expect to see any or all of them delivered? Are units still being converted? How many drivers and crew been trained on them?

The sum total of the likely answers may suggest the possibility of a phased introduction into revenue earning service by December. Could it yet happen?

Northern have ordered 8 769/4s units and the first were supposed to have been delivered and entered service for May 2018.
Currently only 1 has been delivered to Allerton ready for testing and there is no date for other deliveries or units currently undergoing conversion.

(My opinion would be unlikely for December but I am no industry expert if somebody has knowledge of how long testing and crew training lasts then I am more than happy to be corrected)

DannyMich2018 · 11 Aug 2019

390112A said:
Northern have ordered 8 769/4s units and the first were supposed to have been delivered and entered service for May 2018.
Currently only 1 has been delivered to Allerton ready for testing and there is no date for other deliveries or units currently undergoing conversion.

(My opinion would be unlikely for December but I am no industry expert if somebody has knowledge of how long testing and crew training lasts then I am more than happy to be corrected)

December 2020 I'd assume at this rate or maybe even 2021 for the whole 8........

anthony263 · 11 Aug 2019

Tfw might be lucky to get 769002 by December no idea where 769008 is hiding now as 002 seems to have been teasing the photographers at Cardiff central lately shunting around Canton depot.

Bertie the bus · 11 Aug 2019

People have been getting giddy on here about them trundling around Canton depot for about 3 months. The time for excitement is probably when/if they escape the depot confines.

EE Andy b1 · 12 Aug 2019

Bertie the bus said:
People have been getting giddy on here about them trundling around Canton depot for about 3 months. The time for excitement is probably when/if they escape the depot confines.

Well they obviously have no faith in actually trialling one on the mainline to somewhere as they still haven't.
All new stock will have arrived before these things ever move passengers.

I thought we were good at engineering projects, but not this one.

AndrewE · 12 Aug 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
Well they obviously have no faith in actually trialling one on the mainline to somewhere as they still haven't.
All new stock will have arrived before these things ever move passengers.
I thought we were good at engineering projects, but not this one.

Unfortunately the wires won't have arrived, so the railway will continue to pollute city centres (and the countryside) unnecessarily.

37201xoIM · 13 Aug 2019

390112A said:
Northern have ordered 8 769/4s units and the first were supposed to have been delivered and entered service for May 2018.
Currently only 1 has been delivered to Allerton ready for testing and there is no date for other deliveries or units currently undergoing conversion.

(My opinion would be unlikely for December but I am no industry expert if somebody has knowledge of how long testing and crew training lasts then I am more than happy to be corrected)

As far as I can tell, Northern's plan to withdraw the last of the pacers by May 2020 is dependent on being able to diagram from this fleet of eight 769s. If anyone can confirm I'm wrong, do please feel free, as I'd love to be!

(Needless to say the alternative is yet more short-forming / de-strengthening)

Bovverboy · 13 Aug 2019

37201xoIM said:
As far as I can tell, Northern's plan to withdraw the last of the pacers by May 2020 is dependent on being able to diagram from this fleet of eight 769s. If anyone can confirm I'm wrong, do please feel free, as I'd love to be!

(Needless to say the alternative is yet more short-forming / de-strengthening)

I've posted this response to a question posed on the 'Northern 195 Initial Diagrams' thread.

Bovverboy said:
Prior to this week there were 23x195/1 and 25x195/0 still to enter service, and 92 two-car and 10 three-car Pacers still to be withdrawn. (With Northern, that is).
Going by the logic that a carriage's total passenger capacity is approximately directly related to its length, we had 119x24m still to enter service (2856m) and 214x15.5m still to be withdrawn (3317m).
So the conclusion is that there is going to be reduced total capacity after the current changes than there is now. Whether or not that means more short-forming depends on what size of formation is considered acceptable, that's something which seems a bit arbitrary.
Note that the total length of carriages introduced this week (10x24m=240m) equates almost exactly to the total length of the carriages being withdrawn (16x15.5=248m).

Using the above figures, it needs approximately 5x769 to make up the capacity shortfall.

Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member