I had also got the impression that TOCs suffered financial penalties for late running.
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Transport Minister rants at Greater Anglia due to missed connection
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Surreytraveller
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Delay Repay has absolutely no bearing whatsoever in the decisions made about running the train service.
Which is partly the point most people on this thread seem to spout the line that operational convenience or rules comes before the customer
As someone who has managed or owned businesses for over 35 years there is one important mantra that goes above everything else
"the customer is king"
In a well run business everyone from the top down to lowest echelons understand that unfortunately as the posts on this thread show people in the rail industry Don't understand that
As someone who has managed or owned businesses for over 35 years there is one important mantra that goes above everything else
"the customer is king"
In a well run business everyone from the top down to lowest echelons understand that unfortunately as the posts on this thread show people in the rail industry Don't understand that
edwin_m
Veteran Member
For most businesses taking an extra minute to ensure a customer is happy is a good use of time. The railway is a little different. A minute's delay to accommodate a handful of delayed passengers can cause the trian to miss its path and become further delayed, incoveniencing hundreds if it leads to missed connections further down the line. A lot of the deterioration in performance in recent years is probably down to the Passengers Charter mentality that it's OK if it's within five or ten minutes of time, but a train well within those limits can delay lots of others.
There are some cases where it's OK to hold a connection, such as a dead-end branch line if the train has some turnaround time before its next journey, but northbound out of Cambridge isn't likely to be one of them.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
The railway has ~1,700,000,000 customers per year. Not just one customer hoping to make a connection at Cambridge. One late despatch from Cambridge can delay many other services loaded with customers and jeopardise many connections elsewhere (as described in more detail up thread).
Other than perhaps late in the evening or on days with little or no freight there is virtually no slack in the system any more. It has been taken up as fast as it can be made trying to accommodate a more-than-doubling of rail travel.
Other than perhaps late in the evening or on days with little or no freight there is virtually no slack in the system any more. It has been taken up as fast as it can be made trying to accommodate a more-than-doubling of rail travel.
Surreytraveller
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Which customer? The dozen or so trying to make the connection, the hundred or so on the train that will be delayed, and possibly miss other connections, or the hundreds that will be inconvenienced when a train has to run fast or be turned short because a five minute delay waiting for a connecting service has resulted in it being 25 minutes late further down the line because its missed its path?
We would love to keep every single customer happy, but unfortunately its simply not possible. I'm sure if the Transport Minister had told GA where he was and he wanted to make a connection, it would have happened because the Duty Manager in the Control would have considered it a bad career move not to.
High Dyke
Established Member
Oh...a politician. I'm sorry I thought it was someone important!
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Is that the case? We're talking holding the train for perhaps 30 seconds to let people running to it board it. Northbound out of Cambridge, I would imagine the train isn't going to hit the point where delays get compounded until it reaches the single-track section just north of Ely. Given the amount of padding that is in most timetables precisely in order to allow trains to make up time, you could surmise that the train ought to be able to make up those 30 seconds before it hits that single-track section?
dk1
Veteran Member
Dr Hoo
Established Member
No, it’s always a lot more than ‘30 seconds’ even if cross-platform, which I don’t think was the case at Cambridge.
As a former Station Manager who had to face this situation day in, day out, for every fleet-of-foot interchanger who knows where they are running to there is another who has never been to the station before, has no idea which platform the connection is leaving from or whether it is over a footbridge, etc. For everyone travelling light there is someone with luggage, accompanying children, needing assistance and so forth.
It is always at least a couple of minutes and often several.
If there is any timetable ‘padding’ it is usually at the end of the journey, not just before Ely North Junction (or equivalent).
221129
Established Member
What a load of nonsense, this kind of drivel is why we have a society full of self entitled prats. Just the other day I had a group of passengers who missed an already late train kick off being verbally abusive and one person even attempting to spit at me because they were directed to the next train no more than 10 minutes later.
The customer is NOT always right.
Actually, logically Delay Repay would be an incentive to hold connections. Because a 3 minute late running can, through a missed connection, lead to connecting passengers getting a 30/60 min delay through waiting for the next train, thus eligible for DR.
If held, the first train would have been a few minutes late, and the connecting train only a few minutes late too. Ergo, nobody eligible for Delay Repay (excepting anybody making connections off the second train)
Which demonstrates the DR is *not* a factor in train running decisions.
Spartacus
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Train held for 30 seconds for those dashing, how long for those further down the platform, or coming through the station? This train had belled out when the late one came in so was probably all locked up anyway, so interlock released, doors opened and closed again would have taken more than 30 seconds anyway, all while there’s people on board wondering why they’re not going anywhere and there’s the late arrival that’s going to follow it wondering why there’s a train waiting to go with a green signal preventing it from getting a green itself.
And if you wait for one, you have to wait for all! I could justify complaints that the train waited past departure time for certain people but not others.
By which time passengers waiting for the next train might be arriving on the platform so staff have to explain that its not their train, delaying departure even further.
Surreytraveller
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A train running a few minutes late will easily result in a missed path, causing run fast and cancellations. Therefore costing even more in delay repay, and also more in delay minutes.
I doubt most controllers even know what delay repay is.
Intellectual98
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Totally agreed, the number of times I have waited 10 seconds for someone coming down the stairs who then invariably blocks the doors for an imbecile casually strolling from the concourse.
That extra couple of minutes ALWAYS compounds down the line as you start picking up passengers that should have been destined for the following service. Then you miss the path at the junction and have to wait for an ECS move to come out of the yard or a freight to cross, and before you know it the next service is right up behind you.
RWill35396
Member
Perhaps the politician concerned should look at the bigger picture and ask himself why he was delayed getting to the station with time to spare. There are clear notices that state train doors close x seconds prior to departure. If those doors are closed, then you miss the train and, like everyone else who was late, you either make alternative travel plans or you wait for the next train. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things wrong with the railways right now, worthy of complaint, but if you miss the train, you miss the train.
Did you read the story? The reason that he was delayed getting to the station was that the train he was travelling on was late.
O L Leigh
Established Member
One of the most important lessons I learned on the railway I learned early, which I will share with you all now. Ready?
It doesn’t matter what you do, you’re wrong.
It doesn’t matter what you do, you’re wrong.
Depressingly true
chris_in_salop
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I can appreciate fully how dealing with the Great British Public can wear you down, but perhaps your attitude isn't helping in de-escalating the situation?
As a humble passenger, what I've read (on this forum) of customer service failure on the railway just in the last 2 weeks - chaos at Kings Cross, chaos at Euston, wires down at Coventry causing knock-on delays across the midlands, Hope Valley line suspended, passengers trapped on trains for hours on the MML and ECML - makes me wonder whether it is wise to get on a train any more. In my own experience, it feels like there hasn't been a day without disruption and delays between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton since the start of July. I'm seriously wondering whether to renew my monthly season ticket, and just drive to work instead.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I totally agree with the sentiments in these two posts. Too often these days people think that their needs outweigh that of every other person drawing breath, and that any inconvenience to them, no matter how trivial is a matter of national importance. Putting on my most rose-tinted glasses, but there was a time when we just got on with things an accepted that things don't always got to plan without creating a drama about them.
One other thing though, it is deeply disturbing that a politician can create criticism of railway staff when it is their party that can effect the kind of changes they demand. Evidence that we now live firmly in a blame culture. Bad news for most people, though maybe good for those promoting their legal services...
Monty
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They very nature of the railways means that all trains can't always be made to connect with everything else (though there are often times when improvements can be made). Trains get delayed, connections are missed and people get upset. Some connections are held, others are not. The railway network is one great balancing act with very little wriggle room to maneuver and one seemingly simple action can cause the whole thing to fall like a house of cards. A bit melodramatic for this time on a Sunday morning I know but it doesn't make it any less true.
I'm also not keen on this 'you only have to hold the train for another 30 seconds' either, if passengers think they are only going to make their connections by the skin of their teeth it just encourages them to run and take silly risks. I'd rather miss a connection than trip down a flight of stairs and potentially injure myself or another person.
I'm also not keen on this 'you only have to hold the train for another 30 seconds' either, if passengers think they are only going to make their connections by the skin of their teeth it just encourages them to run and take silly risks. I'd rather miss a connection than trip down a flight of stairs and potentially injure myself or another person.
The thing with this forum is that it allows us railstaff a certain amount of anonymity that allows us to be more frank.
I like my job, I'm not going to start running my mouth about my own TOC for risk of falling foul of social media policies. But on more general matters it allows us to be a lot more frank that we can be at work. At work when someone starts complaining but they are talking rubbish I have to be 100% professional and not say what I want, here in the same situation I can.
What that seems to lead to is discussion here become polarised between railstaff who understand the reality of, say in this case, holding a connection and why it often can't be done and will say it plainly. It comes up against passengers and certain enthusiasts who think we all just treat the public with utter contempt whenever possible in every way and discussion becomes one of two extremes.
This may have been written before here but I think the essence of the complaint is that it was opined by the MP that the guard on the departing service was rude by smirking at his bad luck. A call out of 'I'm sorry sir (not 'mate' for instance) but I am not allowed to - please contact the station master to complain'. It won't relieve the disappointment but is the way to handle customers, which all staff should be trained to do. Politeness also costs nothing. All customers should be addressed as 'Sir' or 'Madam', for instance.
O L Leigh
Established Member
As with everyone here, he’s entitled to his opinion. However, an expression of opinion does not infer an accurate representation of the facts.
I’m not inclined to be too harsh. People miss “connections”* all the time and he’s just using his position as a transport minister to shine a light on the matter. Where I feel he’s shot himself in the foot is by loudly and publicly advertising the same level ignorance of operational matters as a vast majority of other passengers, as has been adequately explained already, a malaise that affects this forum also. Comparing the operational pressures at Newton Abbot to those at Cambridge is like comparing apples and unicorns.
* It bears repeating that “connections” no longer exist. These are relics of a bygone age when service density was lower, trains ran infrequently on certain routes and performance was less of an issue. If you have an NRE itinerary you have just that; an itinerary. It neither guarantees nor infers that any of the changes it suggests you make are going to be held in the event of late running.
Remember as well we only have one side to the story, we don't have the Despatcher (not the Conductors) side and don't know if they had been provoked by the MP'S actions verbal or otherwise into a wry smile perhaps.
The train in question has a ten minute turn round at NRW and a six minute connection into a GYM service at NRW.
In answer to previous query there is 1 minute recovery time at the end of the journey.
The train in question has a ten minute turn round at NRW and a six minute connection into a GYM service at NRW.
In answer to previous query there is 1 minute recovery time at the end of the journey.
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Why should customer's be called sir. I do sometimes, but unless they have a knighthood there is no should about it.
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